User talk:Doniago

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Bad Categories

FYI, I put up a request for additional input over here, but haven't gotten any responses:

Wikipedia_talk:Categorization#Categorizing_incidents_as_Massacre,_Mass_Murder,_Murder,_Crime,_or_Terrorism

I'll wait a few more days and if there aren't responses I'm planning on making a RFC to see if we can address this. That seems like a better approach than arguing in circles or edit-warring. Bob drobbs (talk) 19:19, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I joined the discussion specifically because of the discussion you linked to up above. :)

That we should use the terms used by sources (unless somehow clearly erroneous) isn't rocket science, and I don't know why the other editor is being resistant to providing one or more sources that support their preferred terminology.

If anyone's mass-changing articles to use terms unsupported by sources then that merits a stronger warning, and possibly a notice at ANI if they've been warned to at least discuss the matter and are continuing with their edits while a discussion's occurring and they don't have a clear consensus supporting their perspective. DonIago (talk) 19:38, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I do feel like there has been a systematic POV mass push to categorize Israeli attacks with things like a "massacre", "mass murder", "murder", "war crime" and "crime" even when they're not supported by sources.

Here's another example of many, many, of them: Hamama School bombing

I did start cleaning some of it up using the most conservative approach I could -- Only deleting these categories if _no_ sources mentioned them. Then Oneequalsequalsone reverted my changes on a number of pages.

But I couldn't find any rule which determines what should and should not go into a category.

I'm not an expert in wiki process, but wouldn't the next step be to do a RFC to see if we could come up with a clear bar for what should be included? Then move toward further action if people keep violating it? Bob drobbs (talk) 19:53, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, this is a subject area that I don't have much interest in getting involved with. The basic question about applying categories unsupported by the article was an easy one, but for broader-scale concerns I'd recommend reaching out to the appropriate WikiProjects to get the involvement of editors more familiar with the material. DonIago (talk) 19:57, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In a few days then I might do that RFC and loop in people from appropriate wikiprojects. But in terms of categorization, can I get your feedback on what I'm thinking about asking in terms of a metric and if you think these options are reasonable to choose from?

- - - - -

There is at least the potential for POV pushing when categorizing things as Massacre, Mass Murder, Murder, Crime, or Terrorism. As such, what should the minimum bar before for including events in any of these categories?

A) If any editor feels they are appropriate

B) If at least one primary source describes it as such

C) If multiple primary sources describe it as such

D) If at least one secondary source describes it as such

E) If multiple secondary sources describe it as such

F) Other...

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 20:02, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that's a bad start, but I think whatever you come up with should probably reference WP:CATV, and you should perhaps consider whether it's really necessary to supplement that. Which is to say, we already shouldn't be calling something a massacre if sources haven't described it thusly, which precludes categorizing it as such. DonIago (talk) 20:55, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much. Looking at that page, I don't think a RFC is necessary at all. All of that is useful, but perhaps mostly "defining":

"A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently refer to..."

It seems pretty clear from this that if no sources mention "mass murder" or if a single person is quoted as saying "It was a massacre", then according to existing standards it doesn't belong in those categories.

And if people knowingly and willfully ignore policy, then I guess it can be escalated. Bob drobbs (talk) 21:06, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Feedback request: Media, the arts, and architecture request for comment

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I Know What You Did Last Summer

Hi @Doniago, we seem to be in disagreement about the most appropriate short description for I Know What You Did Last Summer. Can you tell me what you specifically object to with respect to my preferred s/d, i.e., "1997 American slasher film"? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 03:09, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There was a fairly recent discussion at WT:FILM about shortdescs for film articles where the consensus seemed to be that, other than the year, we should really only be adding enough text to sufficiently disambiguate the film. Nationality and genre, in particular, are typically unnecessary (I'd be more likely to support adding the director if it was a choice). This seems to be in accordance with WP:SHORTDESC. In other words, for many films, perhaps most, really, "XXXX film" is all that's needed. Generally we shouldn't be making shortdescs longer than they need to be to clarify what the article is about. DonIago (talk) 03:12, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Would you be able to point me to the specific discussion? I can't see it at a cursory glance. Cheers! Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 03:54, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Here you go! DonIago (talk) 06:28, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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