Draft talk:Umm Hani Maryam

Islam: Hadith / Muslim history / Muslim scholars

	Islam portal This draft is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related
	This draft is supported by the Hadith task force.
	This draft is supported by the Muslim history task force.
	This draft is supported by the Muslim scholars task force.

Egypt

This draft is within the scope of WikiProject Egypt, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Egypt on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EgyptWikipedia:WikiProject EgyptTemplate:WikiProject EgyptEgypt

Women in Religion

This draft is within the scope of the Women in Religion WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of women in religion. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.Women in ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject Women in ReligionTemplate:WikiProject Women in ReligionWomen in Religion

Women's History

This draft is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because... Bbb23 I suggest that Silent ink should move the page back to draft and get an experienced editor to check it before publishing it. --TSventon (talk) 14:44, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@TSventonYeah a lady lecturing in colleges in the 10th century is worth mentioning. And since she is lost in history she deserves an article...Could you do the checking? Silent ink (talk) 16:04, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Women scholars in the medieval Islamic world were rare but highly influential. If she lectured at a scholarly institution, that makes her one of the few recorded female lecturers of the time. Also many medieval male scholars with fewer contributions have Wikipedia pages. There are also pages for Fatima al-Fihri, Zaynab bint al-Kamal, and Nana Asma'u, who were similar in scholarly contributions. Wikipedia has a known issue with underrepresentation of women.So I think we need this articleSilent ink (talk) 16:12, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Also I have moved it back to my drafts space and will work on the G7 by which it was declined. Silent ink (talk) 16:48, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Silent ink: sorry, I don't want to advise you on exactly when the article is ready for publication. Did you see my message here? Articles in mainspace need to be notable, which is different from a subject that you or I think is important. It usually means (for people) they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject, do you think that the current references show that? You have four references, each about a paragraph, but 2, 3 and 4 are actually almost identical (link for 4 at https://archive.org/details/usool-al-hadeeth-the-methodology-of-hadith-evaluation/page/n155/mode/2up?q=haanee). How do you know that the websites are reliable?

On G7, reference 1 quotes sources Francis Robinsonand Ira M. Lapidus, eds, The Cambridge Illustrated History of the Islamic World (Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1999), 190. T.J. Winter,The Cambridge Companion to Classical Islamic Theology(Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press, 2008), 103-104. which I believe is an assertion of coverage of any kind in at least one independent reliable source per Wikipedia:Common claims of significance or importance so I believe CSD A7 does not apply. TSventon (talk) 17:11, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note

@Silent ink and TSventon:, I believe that the essential context that this draft is missing is that all the "biographical" details we know about the subject are from Al-Sakhawi's 15th century biographical dictionary Al-Ḍawʾ al-Lāmiʿ. She was one of about 1000 women in the work with about 12,000 entries. This arguably would not make her notable except the modern scholars have used her biography in the work as a window into the status of women Islamic scholars of that era.

While some non-WP:HISTRS sources (eg) simply regurgitate the biographical details (ultimately) gleaned from Al-Sakhawi's work as "facts", doing so in an article on wikipedia would be an error IMO. Instead we need to properly attribute any information about her life to the source so that the reader is properly aware of that context. And the bulk of the draft should then be based upon secondary scholarly analysis of what the "biography" reveals.

A translated version of her complete entry in Al-Ḍawʾ al-Lāmiʿ can be seen on page 190 of The Cambridge Illustrated History of the Islamic World, mentioned above, with context and analysis on pp. 189-191. Pages 102-103 of The Cambridge Companion to Classical Islamic Theology have some additional material. I haven't looked but I expect more academic sources to be available, which should make this a viable article for wikipedia. Btw, the "Maryam" in her name is likely an honorific and the eventual wikipedia article should perhaps be titled simply as Umm Hani. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 19:50, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Abecedare: I came to the article after a request for help at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red#Help requested. Based on the limited research I did at the time, I agree with your comments. Unfortunately I don't know much about reliable sources for the medieval Arab world.

One detail is that "Umm Hani" may need disambiguation as Fakhitah bint Abi Talib is better known by her kunya Umm Hānī. TSventon (talk) 21:59, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@TSventon: Ah! I was not aware of the WIR discussion where Silver Ink was already receiving good advice.

Good point on "Umm Hani" as the article name for this subject. A suitable disambiguation should be easy to figure out though once the draft is revised and ready for move to mainspace. This topic is far from my bailiwick too but if Silent ink needs further help with finding or interpreting sources, WT:ISLAM-members may better positioned to provide it. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 23:15, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]