Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Archive 14
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| Archive 10 | ← | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
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Inspired by the Lefsetz nom and the fact that writers/journalists are over quota, let's do a basic cutdown of random fluff critics i mostly added to fill space. (mightve been 1 or 2 i didn't). Listing 58 critics that are mostly regional US critics is absurd, even moreso that we list more journalist critics than music theorists. Journalism could do with 150 to 250 people. Until journalists have a larger, more global impact, 360 is too much in comparison. But critics even more so. At just a basic comparison point - most of the nommed critics for removal don't even have high NGrams, which should be way higher for someone who works in writing. [1]. I believe this is a good start to work on getting this list respectable and managable.
Now to address Leo, he is mostly known for controversy, he is not globally popular or relevant.
- Support
- As nominator. GuzzyG (talk)
- Per nom. GauchoDude (talk)
- --Thi (talk)
- Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Aye.GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- Discuss
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Admittedly first music critic to win the putlitzer but he isn't a globally recognised writer or influence. We can't have a list that's purely just "first". He seems to be known for being a major critic of Bernstein, a level 4 conductor who is still popular, so it seems he didn't have any long term sway either.
- Support
- As nominator. GuzzyG (talk)
- Per nom. GauchoDude (talk)
- Makkool (talk)
- Aye.GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- Discuss
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This is a local critic for Boston theatre, not someone of widespread global influence.
- Support
- As nominator. GuzzyG (talk)
- Per nom. GauchoDude (talk)
- --Thi (talk)
- Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Aye.GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- Discuss
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This guy is known as the guy who went after R. Kelly, which is admirable but not something of world historic global importance.
- Support
- As nominator. GuzzyG (talk)
- Per nom. GauchoDude (talk)
- Makkool (talk)
- Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Aye.GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- Discuss
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Wrote at NME for 6 years and a minor musician, what else is there?
- Support
- As nominator. GuzzyG (talk)
- pbp
- Per nom. GauchoDude (talk)
- --Thi (talk)
- Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Aye.GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- Discuss
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Another critic with no global influence, who's article longest section is about his criticism of notable musicians rather than any influence. A level 5 critic should be on the level of Roger Ebert, Robert Christgau, Lester Bangs, Robert Hughes (critic) and Robert Parker (wine critic). He's not on that level. One look at his music criticisms show he's more outlier than influential.
- Support
- As nominator. GuzzyG (talk)
- Per nom. GauchoDude (talk)
- --Thi (talk)
- Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
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This guy is a literary critic, so should be in thought. Literary critics are very established in culture and he shows no signs of influence or global importance in academia. His only work with a article, The Lost: A Search for Six of Six Million is a non-fiction memoir. While an admirable one, not enough for this list.
- Support
- As nominator. GuzzyG (talk)
- Per nom. GauchoDude (talk)
- --Thi (talk)
- Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Aye.GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- Discuss
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One line legacy section, is not globally known.
- Support
- As nominator. GuzzyG (talk)
- Per nom. GauchoDude (talk)
- --Thi (talk)
- Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- pbp
- Oppose
- Discuss
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Art critics and historians are established in a sense. Giorgio Vasari being level 4. Important art historians should have more than 3 interwikis and more in the article that shows why they're important besides just "The Bad Boy of Art Criticism".
- Support
- As nominator. GuzzyG (talk)
- Per nom. GauchoDude (talk)
- --Thi (talk)
- Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- Discuss
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Another article which is more "successful career" rather than "historic, global influence".
- Support
- As nominator. GuzzyG (talk)
- Per nom. GauchoDude (talk)
- --Thi (talk)
- Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- Discuss
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Co-founding decades long dead mags is his only importance and that is a minor blip in scheme of world history. Everything he did, he did it with H. L. Mencken who is actually at a level 5 standard.
- Support
- As nominator. GuzzyG (talk)
- Per nom. GauchoDude (talk)
- --Thi (talk)
- Makkool (talk)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- Discuss
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TV critic who's lasting contribution is coining "mixed martial arts". Coining one word isn't of historic importance though. Modern television's criticism leader is Alan Sepinwall, who is not listed. I don't think Rosenberg makes the cut.
- Support
- As nominator. GuzzyG (talk)
- One Pulitzer Prize. Not impactful enough for this level. GauchoDude (talk)
- --Thi (talk)
- Makkool (talk)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Actor removals
Remove John Cazale
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Appeared in only five films and won no personal awards. pbp
- Support
- pbp
- Support all per nom. We have too many American supporting actors. Makkool (talk)
- Kevinishere15 (talk)
- -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Remove Jackie Coogan 
5
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Lot of credits, but mostly as a child or supporting actor. Known for playing a supporting role in The Addams Family 
5. I have a hard time saying he's one of the 100 most influential American male actors ever.
- Support
- pbp
- Per nom. Makkool (talk)
- -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- By impact on law and the development of child actors rights - he's important to acting history, California Child Actor's Bill aka "Coogan Bill". By that measure, he's the most notable male child actor (and if we list Shirley Temple at level 4, 5 is good enough for Coogan). Macaulay Culkin should be removed first. GuzzyG (talk)
- Per GuzzyG. λ NegativeMP1
- Weak oppose per GuzzyG. He has had an impact on society beyond being famous and winning awards, and we could use more of that on the actor list. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Neutral
- Discuss
The first major Hollywood child star, according to Britannica ([2]). --Moscow Connection (talk)
Remove James Dunn (actor)
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Is a Supporting Actor win enough to get him on the list? Largely undistinguished otherwise. Had a few periods of brilliance and long periods of unemployment. pbp
- Support
- pbp
- Per nom. Makkool (talk)
- Kevinishere15 (talk)
- -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Remove Richard Farnsworth
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Never won any Academy Awards or anything like that. pbp
- Support
- pbp
- Per nom. Makkool (talk)
- Kevinishere15 (talk)
- -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Remove Carl "Alfalfa" Switzer
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17 interwikis is low for an actor. No critical acclaim, mostly known for playing Alfalfa in Our Gang/Little Rascals, which is a better VA5 candidate than he himself pbp
- Support
- pbp
- Per nom. Makkool (talk)
- Kevinishere15 (talk)
- -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Remove Thomas Meighan
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Doesn't feel like his legacy from the silent era has stood the test of time
- Support
- pbp
- -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Not seeing his vitality. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Remove Macaulay Culkin
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Mentioned above as a potential removal candidate. Doesn't have much of a legacy aside from the Home Alone movies; very little awards pbp
- Support
- pbp
- -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Support. I would be willing to consider adding Home Alone, but I support a straight removal. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Oppose
- Oppose simple removal, would support removing him if we add Home Alone. Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Neutral
- Discuss
Remove Roy Scheider
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Ain't won shit. pbp
- Support
- pbp
- -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
- Jaws (film) 5 seems to be his main claim to fame, and that's already V5. Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Not just "Jaws", "All That Jazz (film)" is very famous as well. And "The French Connection (film)". --Moscow Connection (talk)
Remove Charles "Buddy" Rogers
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Just hasn't stood the test of time. Was in Wings (1927 film), and while that won Best Picture, he wasn't even nominated for best Actor. pbp
- Support
- pbp
- -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Starring in one Oscar-winning film isn't enough. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
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This isn't WP:RECENTISM as they are both the same age with Lee starting his career slightly earlier. Lee has 12 more language links, more pageviews, and more awards (see List of awards and nominations received by Lee Jung-jae). He could also go in the film section but TV is probably where he has the most cultural impact.
- Support
- Oppose
- Mixed
- Support add, neutral on removal (note that Winter Sonata 5 is VA) Iostn (talk)
- Same as lostn. For Lee Jung-jae, I can see a recentism argument being made against him here since it seems like he only became a superstar after Squid Game. However, the fact that he became famous in the West as a purely Korean-language actor (this has since changed) is a VA5-worthy accomplishment in and of itself. I could also be completely biased since I'm fresh off watching Squid Game Season 2. Aurangzebra (talk)
- Weak support add, weak oppose removal. We probably should cut in the future, but actors are technically under-quota and probably still biased towards English-speakers. No need to overcomplicate it. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Discuss
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One of the most internationally decorated male gymnasts of all time with an argument for best ever in his sport. 7 Olympic medals (3 gold) and 21 World Championships medals (10 gold).
- Support
- As nominator. GauchoDude (talk)
- Support per above. Max Whitlock could also probably be added. Sahaib (talk)
- Sure, relatively ancient sport (even if modern competitions are newer), and we can afford 1 addition after all the removals. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk)
- Don't need to be swap.--Bluevestman (talk)
- Oppose
- Oppose straight add on new athletes. Could support a swap, but don't have one in mind. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Discuss
- I'm not sure if I needed to clarify in the nomination, but Uchimura, if confirmed, would go under Level 5 Sports Figures, Gymnastics category, MAG (men's artistic gymnastics) subcategory. GauchoDude (talk)
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Pogačar is probably vital enough by now due to achieving the Triple Crown of Cycling.
- Support
- As nominator. Sahaib (talk)
- Meant to propose him earlier last year when he won the Tour De France for the 3rd time. Arguably a top 3 all-around cyclist of all time and he still has a long career ahead of him. Aurangzebra (talk)
- Support, it's an exclusive enough accomplishment that we can treat him as an exception to the current pruning. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
- Support, has comparable or better career achievements to the other vital cyclists and is only 26. Frequently compared to or called the greatest cyclist of all time by mainstream sources. Verylongandmemorable (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Just going to note here that we don't list Stephen Roche, who also achieved a Triple Crown. QuicoleJR (talk)
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Serote is relatively obscure compared to Paton. His main work, Cry, the Beloved Country 5 is listed but I think Paton deserves a spot too for his influence on apartheid literature.
- Support
- As nom. J947 ‡ edits
- Per nom. I am very weak support on removing Serote but strong support for Paton who I'm surprised wasn't listed. In general, I believe if an author is good enough to have even a single work at VA5, they should be on here as well. Aurangzebra (talk)
- Oppose
- Mixed
- Support add, oppose removal. Everyone did a great job of trimming Writers & Journalists, and we're now back within the cushion. Let's just add for now and we can revisit trimming Serote in the next round. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Support add, oppose removal, partly to ensure Black South African representation. Although looking into South African literature 5, you could swap Serote for his predecessor as poet laureate, Keorapetse Kgositsile, or possibly Thomas Mofolo Iostn (talk)
- Kgositsile is listed. I think Mofolo, Sol Plaatje and (coloured) Peter Abrahams are better options than Serote. A possible Afrikaner inclusion is Olive Schreiner. J947 ‡ edits
- Kgositsile is listed. I think Mofolo, Sol Plaatje and (coloured) Peter Abrahams are better options than Serote. A possible Afrikaner inclusion is Olive Schreiner. J947 ‡ edits
- Discussion
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Medicine list. Banting's the co-discoverer of Insulin 4, youngest Nobel Prize in Medicine laureate, voted the fourth greatest Canadian – I don't think he'd be out of place at VA4 at all, to be honest. His lesser-known colleague Macleod should be listed too, according to our lede.
- Support
- As nom. J947 ‡ edits
- Per nom. Makkool (talk)
- Per nom. Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- Scientists are one of the most important types of biography. I'd rather list these two over a pair of actors or sportspeople. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Oppose
- Mixed
- Discussion
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Has led the country since the 2021 Myanmar coup d'état 5.
- Support
- As nom. Sahaib (talk)
- Responsible for 2021 Myanmar coup d'état 5, Myanmar civil war (2021–present) 5, as well as a significant driver of Rohingya genocide 5. The Account 2 (talk)
- Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- Per nom Iostn (talk)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
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Pulling from the article's lede, Ravachol is the cultural archetype of the anarchist terrorist and his attacks are widely regarded as (a) ushering in the 1890s European terror wave with which anarchism would be long associated, and (b) associating terrorism with symbolic gestures (like attacking a place or cultural symbol). He is a major figure in European history.
- Support
- As nom czar
- I support that choice too. (Note that I wrote some of the page kinda fast and there is a lot more to say for example in the legacy subsection, there is much more to say and I didn't do all the sources about the influence of Ravachol - far from that) Aristoxène (talk)
- Support per nom. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Opening sentence clearly mentions his influence on anarchism. SameOldSameOldSameOld (talk) — Preceding undated comment added
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
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I cannot fathom why they are not listed under politicians when their principal endeavors were diplomatic/political (both received the Nobel Peace Prize for diplomacy). In addition, Cecil was a Cabinet secretary in the British government. pbp
- Support
- pbp
- Makkool (talk)
- Agree completely that, for now, Politicians is probably the best place for them. TBF though, we really don't have a good area for non-military officers (diplomats, economic planners, viziers, etc.) -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Reason #1 bazillion why politicians, diplomats, bureaucrats, jurists, activists and generals all should be in the same category...because of the blurred lines between all of them. pbp
- That's sounds like a complete nightmare to manage. --Bluevestman (talk)
- Reason #1 bazillion why politicians, diplomats, bureaucrats, jurists, activists and generals all should be in the same category...because of the blurred lines between all of them. pbp
- Support moving Cecil. Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- --Bluevestman (talk)
- Sure, why not. GauchoDude (talk)
at
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Neutral on Bunche. Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- Discussion
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster doesn't really do anything. Sahaib (talk)
- Cecil also served in both houses of parliament pbp
@GauchoDude: Do you realize that the nomination already had enough votes to move both of them and that, if we interpret the rules literally, your vote makes it so that we can't close the nomination until three days after we could close it otherwise? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lophotrochzoa (talk • contribs)
- I'm not sure who is pinging me here, but I think it would be more important to ensure all proposals receive as much attention as members see fit instead of closing these down as expeditiously as possible. While my vote may or may not make a difference as to this specific pass/fail, the point of this exercise is that I, along with whoever else has voted, have taken the time to review and we've all made independent decisions. If the purpose of this is to just have the bare minimum required for action, I'd suggest reducing the minimum number required to one. GauchoDude (talk)
- The real problem is that the rules say that we are not allowed to close discussions within seven days of the last vote. I have proposed that we change the rules. Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- The real problem is that the rules say that we are not allowed to close discussions within seven days of the last vote. I have proposed that we change the rules. Lophotrochozoa (talk)
Purplebackpack89 (a.k.a. pbp) tried to close this discussion. I wouldn't revert closes just because it's been less that 7 days since the last vote, at least if there were enough votes 7 days ago and there have been no contrary votes since then (I've made a proposal to officially allow us to close discussions in such cases) but in this case they miscounted the votes. Purplebackpack89 wrote that the outcome of the vote was 6-1, but I voted neutral on Bunche, so there are only five votes for moving him, and on the other hand there are no oppose votes. Lophotrochozoa (talk)
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Upfront, the page is currently a stub and may not have many interwikis, but I suspect that's more a coverage bias than a lack of notability.
He was the commander of Chadian forces during the Chadian-Libyan War, and became famous for his effective use of light technicals, particularly at the Battle of Fada. Chad ultimately won the war, which is sometimes known as the Toyota War due to Chadian tactics under his command. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Support
- Oppose
- I am sympathetic to the representation argument, but I don't think we should list a military commander whose main claim to vitality is leading one of the sides in a non-vital war. I would be willing to reconsider if the Chadian–Libyan War was listed as vital. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Per above. GauchoDude (talk)
- Two votes should be eough to close as failed. Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- Neutral
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Winning the first Eurovision Song Contest is not enough to be included on this list. Johnny Logan (singer) and Loreen who won the competition twice are not listed. In terms of German or German speaking winners Conchita Wurst, Lena Meyer-Landrut, Nicole Seibert and Udo Jürgens are arguably more vital. Assia is currently listed on the talk page as "Low‑importance" in all WikiProjects. Sahaib (talk)
- Support
- As nom. Sahaib (talk)
- Per nom. GauchoDude (talk)
- Swap with Udo Jürgens due to relative German language under-representation currently Iostn (talk)
- I would support this swap as the German version of his article is longer. I also found this list which ranks him as the second most famous Austrian singer after Falco (musician), who is already listed. Sahaib (talk)
- I would support this swap as the German version of his article is longer. I also found this list which ranks him as the second most famous Austrian singer after Falco (musician), who is already listed. Sahaib (talk)
- I think the suggested swap with Udo Jürgens would be reasonable. --Moscow Connection (talk)
- Note. I'm opposing a simple remove. --Moscow Connection (talk)
- Note. I'm opposing a simple remove. --Moscow Connection (talk)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- @GeogSage: How about adding Udo Jürgens? It looks like we are one vote short of adding him. --Moscow Connection (talk)
- @GeogSage: How about adding Udo Jürgens? It looks like we are one vote short of adding him. --Moscow Connection (talk)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
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If we have a bazillion actors and directors, and are beginning to add cinematographers, shouldn't we have at least one art director/production designer? Bro won 11 Oscars (which he designed!) and was nominated for 38
- Support
- pbp
- Tabu Makiadi (talk)
- Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk)
- He won a record-breaking number of Oscars and designed the physical Oscar award itself. I agree we should remove some of our actors and directors (we list too many biographies in general at this level) but I also agree that Gibbons should be listed. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Oppose
- Oppose add. Might support a swap from one of our actors and directors. Having a "Bazillion" of them is a problem, we should not be using it as justification to add others. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Discussion
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Sportspeople is way over quota, and we need to make cuts. Out of the six badminton players we list, Intanon stands out as seemingly the least vital. She is not considered one of the best, and her main claim to vitality is being the first Thai to get a high ranking in women's singles. I don't think that that is enough for vitality. 17 interwikis is also not very high for a vital athlete.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Per nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Subject seems very good, not vital. GauchoDude (talk)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk)
- --Thi (talk)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
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Only real major accomplishment is winning the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction, and we don't list every winner. Other than that, Shaara's books haven't made much of an impact, and he only wrote four. Seems to me like another forgotten 20th-century bio that doesn't need to be listed.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Per nom. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Agreed. GauchoDude (talk)
- Per nom. His most famous book only has 3 interwikis. Aurangzebra (talk)
- --Thi (talk)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
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We list 6 hockey goalies but not the one voted as the consensus best NHL goalie of all time by both critics and fans. I know there are some here who consider sporting accomplishments meaningless and though I do not agree with that, Roy is also independently significant for revolutionizing goalkeeping in Ice hockey 4 by popularizing the higher-efficiency butterfly style which is used by almost all goalies today. He warrants a spot on VA5 for both his accomplishments and for the fact that he changed a way a VA4 sport is played permanently. I chose Parent to swap him with since he seems to be the least notable of the goaltenders we list but open to other swaps.
- Support
- As nom. Aurangzebra (talk)
- Agreed. GauchoDude (talk)
- My opinion on sports accomplishments only applies to VA4, I think impressive enough sports accomplishments can get someone a VA5 slot. As for this specific proposal, support per nom. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Support removal. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- per nom. This list doesn't make sense if it doesn't include the greatest NHL goaltender of all time. 47.230.61.135 (talk)
- Although having grown up in Buffalo, I am a Hasek guy. It is conceivable that people could consider him the greatest goalie. Support add.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
- When I think of sports, regardless of which type, I think they are about as vital as Competitive eating 5. Sonya Thomas and Eric Booker are "big names" in that sport, but I don't think they are vital. I don't think athletes should be listed based on playing the game good. They should be at least as famous as Kim Kardashian 5, or have somehow materially changed the world or impacted society more braody. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
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Recommended as a removal by Aurangzebra in a different section. Best Austrian footballer isn't good enough, especially since he never won any major titles.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Thank you + per nom Aurangzebra (talk)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Agreed. GauchoDude (talk)
- --Thi (talk)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
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Recommended as a removal by Aurangzebra in a different section. Apparently considered one of the greatest African footballers, but the relevant source has him at seventh and we don't list the players they had at fifth and sixth. He has some decently impressive achievements, but the same can be said for countless other players we don't list.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Thank you + per nom Aurangzebra (talk)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Agreed. GauchoDude (talk)
- --Thi (talk)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
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After reclassifying less political brigands and pirates under Criminals, instead of Rebels, we have a lot of slots open in the military section. I normally don't suggest recent figures, and I know the topic brings out a lot of emotion in people, but I think the current war between Russia and Ukraine is clearly historical. That makes generals from both sides notable:
- Valery Gerasimov, general staff and current theater commander of Russian forces
- Oleksandr Syrskyi, current commander of Ukrainian forces
- Sergey Surovikin, previous theater commander of Russian forces, also led Russian forces in the Syrian civil war
- Valerii Zaluzhnyi, previous commander of Ukrainian forces
I don't know whether he belongs under Rebels, Businesspeople, or something else, but I'd also suggest
both for his role in forming the Wagner Group and the weird (sort of?) rebellion he led in 2023. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Support
- As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Support. See discussion.GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Support Gerasimov only: Gerasimov has been a household of Russian politics for quite some time and the war has only added to his prominence. The others really have only come into focus because of the war, and considering the war itself is only V5 I think they should be excluded (exception being Volodymyr Zelenskyy 5 who, let's be honest, is largely known because of the war), but they could be added in the future depending on the course of the conflict (particularly Syrskyi). Prigozhin will probably be remembered for his brief rebelion but his best work was with Wagner in Africa, still probably hasn't warranted V5. Idiosincrático (talk)
- Support Gerasimov per Idiosincrático and Prigozhin for the list of militaries; founding the Wagner Group was his most important claim to fame. Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- Oppose
- Going to oppose here as the conflict is still ongoing and that's much too recent for me. GauchoDude (talk)
- Mixed
- Support Gerasimov only and oppose the rest per Idiosincrático. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Neutral
- Discussion
- This is an interesting situation. As the conflict continues, these roles might change. A leader who seems vital now may in hindsight be only a footnote in a larger war. Furthermore, can we use these modern leaders to look back in time to other conflicts and identify people who might be "vital." For example, August von Mackensen led the join invasion of Serbia during the Serbian campaign 5 of WWI (which likely saw at least 700,000 combat casualties on all sides, and between half a million and 800,000 dead civilians). WWI is not in the news today so not on the forefront of our minds, but it seems to me that either people like him are vital, or people like Valery Gerasimov are not, as a vital article should ideally always be vital.GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- @GeogSage: Yeah, I'm normally hesitant to vote for adding living people to VA, especially recently notable ones. But in this case, I think they're tied up with some clearly historical events and we have the room. As for your analogy, I would totally support adding this von Mackensen character; I'm not familiar with him, but the figures you mentioned seem like a strong argument to me, and of course... we still have the room. I know we do at least include Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck 5 so there's also a precedent of some "deep-cuts" in the list of WWI figures. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- @GeogSage: Yeah, I'm normally hesitant to vote for adding living people to VA, especially recently notable ones. But in this case, I think they're tied up with some clearly historical events and we have the room. As for your analogy, I would totally support adding this von Mackensen character; I'm not familiar with him, but the figures you mentioned seem like a strong argument to me, and of course... we still have the room. I know we do at least include Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck
Add cinematographers
Currently we lack many prominent cinematographers. I propose the following for consideration. All wouldn't need to get in. About 10 vital cinematographers is probably enough. (Sven Nykvist from Sweden and Gregg Toland and Vilmos Zsigmond from the US are already listed).
Add Roger Deakins 5
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From the UK. 16 Academy Award nominations and 2 wins, known for being technically innovative.
- Support
- As nom. Makkool (talk)
- Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk)
- Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- Probably the most important cinematographer of our generation. ALittleClass (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
- I fail to see what's particular/innovative about his work. The article doesn't explain. Hollywood's technical level is very high, you can take virtually any big budget movie and give it an Oscar. Yes, Coen brothers' films are beautifully photographed, but who is the one to "blame" :-) [praise] for their visual style, the director or the cinematographer? --14:40, 4 March 2025 (UTC)
You can try and convince me otherwise. Maybe Deakins is the best cinematographer of all times... I honestly don't know. (He probably is here because of The Shawshank Redemption. But I personally think the movie is way overrated.) --Moscow Connection (talk)
Add Emmanuel Lubezki 5
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From Mexico. Known for a ground-breaking style. 8 Academy Award nominations and only one to win in three consecutive years.
- Support
- As nom. Makkool (talk)
- Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
- Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- Oppose
- This seems to be a case of recentism. I would also be careful adding Hollywood directors/cinematographers/actors based on their number of Oscars/nominations. The Oscars are an industry award given out by insiders to fellow industry workers. --Moscow Connection (talk)
- Agreed with Moscow Connection, this doesn't scream "one of the most important people in history" as much as it does "I'm pretty good at my current job". GauchoDude (talk)
- Discuss
Add Kazuo Miyagawa
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From Japan. Highly influential pioneering cinematographer, worked in Rashomon with Kurosawa.
- Support
- As nom. Makkool (talk)
- Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Oppose
- I am not convinced of his vitality. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Article does not (currently?) make a case for importance. As such, I cannot support. GauchoDude (talk)
- Discuss
I voted for adding earlier today. But the problem is that the article doesn't say much. And neither does the Japanese one. So the question is... what do you intend achieving by adding this one? It doesn't seem likely that the page grows significantly in the near future. I'm taking back my vote. --Moscow Connection (talk)
- What do anybody of us intend to achieve? Listing significant people in their fields is the point. Current content quality or future growth potential matters less at least for me. I usually follow sources outside of Wikipedia, when it's not my own expertise or general knowledge. For these, I asked ChatGPT to provide a list of most vital cinematographers from around the world. Makkool (talk)
- @Makkool: Which sources (other than ChatGPT) suggest that Kazuo Miyagawa is as important as you are claiming? Could those sources be used to improve the article? Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- @Makkool: Which sources (other than ChatGPT) suggest that Kazuo Miyagawa is as important as you are claiming? Could those sources be used to improve the article? Lophotrochozoa (talk)
@Makkool: Actually, Kazuo Miyagawa is one of the more influential cinematographers that you proposed. I'm sorry for my earlier comment. I think he should have been added after all. (I didn't expect this one to fail. I just noted that the article wasn't good.) --Moscow Connection (talk)
Could this maybe be re-opened? I'll vote "support" and then we'll wait for more opinions. --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:42, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
@Lophotrochozoa: Pinging the closer. --Moscow Connection (talk)
- @Moscow Connection: Start a new thread? Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- That's too complicated.
Okay, what is done is done. What has failed has failed. It is just that back in March I was still under impression that most proposals are accepted and that no one will oppose regardless of my comments. --Moscow Connection (talk)
- That's too complicated.
Add Raoul Coutard 5
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From France. Crucial to the French New Wave movement with his hand-held documentary style.
- Support
- As nom. Makkool (talk)
- Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Cinematographer with the most credits in the top 1000 films of all time according to TSPDT [3]. Aurangzebra (talk)
- Agree. --Moscow Connection (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Gabriel Figueroa
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From Mexico. Hasn't worked in extensively Hollywood unlike Lubezki, but considered one of the most important to Mexican cinema.
- Support
- As nom. Makkool (talk)
- Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Weak support. Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- Oppose
- This is too niché, isn't it? (You can try and convince me otherwise.)
Better add a couple of directors with household names. There are infinite choices like Arturo Ripstein (who is Mexican as well), Mikhail Kalatozov. And I have nominated some already. --Moscow Connection (talk) - One of the greatest cinematographers from a specific era of films in a specific country which is not internationally famous for its film industry, and he only has 12 interwikis. I'm not convinced. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Doesn't do it for me either. GauchoDude (talk)
- Discuss
Add Subrata Mitra 5
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From India. Considered one of the greatest cinematographers of India, and a pioneer. Worked on Pather Panchali.
- Support
- As nom. Makkool (talk)
- Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- India is a large enough country with a large enough film industry to warrant listing its best cinematographer, and Pather Panchali 5 is Level 5. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Oppose
- This is too niché, isn't it? Better add a couple of directors with household names. (You can try and convince me otherwise.) --Moscow Connection (talk)
- @Moscow Connection: We can't make a list of only directors. Indian cinema is important enough to warrant one cinematographer, and he worked on The Apu Trilogy 4, which is Level 4. I think it is fair to list a few cinematographers alongside our hundreds of actors and directors. QuicoleJR (talk)
- @Moscow Connection: We can't make a list of only directors. Indian cinema is important enough to warrant one cinematographer, and he worked on The Apu Trilogy
- Doesn't do it for me either. GauchoDude (talk)
- Discuss
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From Australia, but worked in Hong Kong cinema extensively. Behind the distinctive visual style of Wong Kar-Wai's films.
- Support
- As nom. Makkool (talk)
- Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Weak support, since he seems quite famous and Wong Kar-wai 4 is Level 4. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Oppose
- This is too niché, isn't it? Better add a couple of directors with household names. (You can try and convince me otherwise.) --Moscow Connection (talk)
- Doesn't do it for me either. GauchoDude (talk)
- Discuss
Rebels, revolutionaries and activists changes (set 3 of 4)
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Largely a footnote in the history of utopian socialist communities
- Support
- Nom Iostn (talk)
- Support, especially since modern American activists are close to 1/8 of the entire section. Way more Transcendalists to choose from also. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Makkool (talk)
- PrimalMustelid (talk)
- Aye.GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- Discuss
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Perhaps the most famous anti-slavery rebel in Brazil
- Support
- Nom Iostn (talk)
- Strong support, adds good coverage outside America and before the 19th-century. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Makkool (talk)
- --Bluevestman (talk)
- EchoVanguardZ (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Kōtoku Shūsui 5
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Among the forebears of Japanese anti-state leftism
- Support
- Nom Iostn (talk)
- Support, adds good coverage outside America. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Makkool (talk)
- --Grnrchst (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Jose Maria Sison 5
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Filipino rebel leader for over 50 years
- Support
- Nom Iostn (talk)
- Support, adds good coverage outside America. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Makkool (talk)
- Absolutely. --Bluevestman (talk)
- EchoVanguardZ (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Iqbal Masih 5
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Widely commemorated child activist
- Support
- Nom Iostn (talk)
- Support, had to skim the article, but beyond coverage outside America, also adds coverage on an issues basis. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Makkool (talk)
- --Bluevestman (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Leila Khaled 5
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Not sure how we don't already have any Palestinian figures on here
- Support
- Nom Iostn (talk)
- Support, adds good coverage outside America, and we should almost definitely have 1 Palestinian activist. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Makkool (talk)
- --Bluevestman (talk)
- EchoVanguardZ (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Mordechai Vanunu 5
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In the tradition of Daniel Ellsberg 5, Chelsea Manning 5, etc
- Support
- Nom Iostn (talk)
- Support, precedent of other government whistleblowers seems clear. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Makkool (talk)
- Support --Thi (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Nimr al-Nimr 5
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Saudi sheikh and opposition leader, whose execution saw international condemnation
- Support
- Nom Iostn (talk)
- Support but maybe under Religious Figures instead? I know he wound up in English news for more political reasons, and the article reflects that, but I think he was primarily still a religious leader. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Makkool (talk)
- Support. Gotta agree with Zar2gar1 though that he's more suited for religious figures. --Bluevestman (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Dutty Boukman 5
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Important instigator of the Haitian Revolution 4
- Support
- Nom Iostn (talk)
- Makkool (talk)
- Sure. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- --Bluevestman (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Chen Sheng 5
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Leader of the first of many uprisings that led to the eventual dissolution of the Qin dynasty 4, China's first imperial dynasty
- Support
- Nom Iostn (talk)
- Makkool (talk)
- Sure. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Zinderboff (talk)
- --Bluevestman (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Add Wolfe Tone 5
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Important forefather of Irish republicanism
- Support
- Nom Iostn (talk)
- Makkool (talk)
- Sure. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- --Bluevestman (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
Remove most of the failed presidential candidates
Remove Ross Perot 5
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A businessman who ran twice as a third party candidate, he didn't win a single state either time and he didn't crack the two party system like he wanted.
If anyone wants to argue he's vital as a businessman, I've left an option to move to businesspeople. Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Support
- As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Oppose
- Most third-party candidates are not vital at this level, but I think Perot is vital because he had the second strongest performance of a third-party candidate in the 20th century. No third-party candidate after him came close to his margins. Interstellarity (talk)
- To be fair, it somewhat helped that no 3rd-party candidate since had his checkbook. pbp
- To be fair, it somewhat helped that no 3rd-party candidate since had his checkbook. pbp
- Arguably the most significant recent third party candidate. Questions? four Olliefant (she/her)
- Move to Businesspeople
- Discuss
Remove Thomas E. Dewey 5
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Governor of New York who ran for president twice and lost both times, I'm not sure he passes the bar, he doesn't seem much more important than say, Alf Landon, another governor who ran and lost, unless you want to argue his work as a prosecutor is important enough? Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Support
- As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- A surprise defeat isn't enough to justify vitality. Zinderboff (talk)
- Oppose
- Dewey defeats Truman. He is vital enough to include. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Per QuicoleJR. Interstellarity (talk)
- Per above Questions? four Olliefant (she/her)
- Neutral
- Discuss
Previously nominated for removal in late 2023 pbp 23:43, 27 March 2025 (UTC)
Gotta ask: is Governor of New York (or California or other large states) considered chop liver? pbp
Remove Walter Mondale
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Jimmy Carter's vice president, who ran for president and lost in a landslide against Reagan, he doesn't seem any more vital than Hubert Humphrey, another vice president who ran and lost by a lot. Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Support
- As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Doesn't have lasting influence. If there was an American VP--> failed presidential candidate to have vital, it would probably be Mondale's mentor Hubert Humphrey for his civil rights work. Zinderboff (talk)
- Per nom. --Moscow Connection (talk)
- I do think that discussing this one so often is a little much, but I'm really not seeing vitality. He's an important politician, sure, but so are Marco Rubio, John Kerry, and Hubert Humphrey, none of whom we list. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Oppose
- I think listing most/all of the failed major party candidates for president is sufficient. Interstellarity (talk)
- Mondale was also a senator and ambassador Questions? four Olliefant (she/her)
- Neutral
- Discuss
- Article was Removed from VA5 in late 2023 but added back in late 2024. Is it a good idea to discuss him for the third time in a year and a half, the second time in six months? pbp
- Of all the ones to compare to Alf Landon, this might be the most apt. pbp
- Of all the ones to compare to Alf Landon, this might be the most apt. pbp
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Bill Clinton's vice president, he very narrowly lost to George Bush in the 2000 election, the closeness of the election and the Bush v Gore decision pushes him above Mondale but he doesn't seem more vital than Samuel J. Tilden, another one who narrowly lost and had his election decided in a different way than usual. Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Support
- As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Oppose
- Most vital out of all those you listed, after losing the election he was notable for his environmental activism for which he won a Nobel Peace Prize whereas Tilden retired and died soon after. Sahaib (talk)
- Also oppose here. He is more than just a VP who failed at running for the presidency as Sahaib pointed out. GauchoDude (talk)
- Lost by as close as it gets, then won a Nobel Peace Prize pbp
- Per above. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Per discussion above. It's as clear as it gets. Interstellarity (talk)
- Neutral
- Discuss
Remove Mitt Romney 5
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Governor of Massachusetts who ran against Barack Obama for president and lost, not much more vital than Alf Landon, who did the same thing and who we don't list, his party also went in a completely different direction so he didn't have much influence. Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Support
- As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Per nom.GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Zinderboff (talk)
- Oppose
- Simply because we've been here twice before in a year and a half and he was retained both times. pbp
- I think listing most/all of the failed major party candidates for president is sufficient. Interstellarity (talk)
- Per above Questions? four Olliefant (she/her)
- Neutral
- Discuss
- Article was proposed for removal in late 2023 and proposed again in late 2024, with the two previous proposals both failing. pbp
- General comments
I don't like the Alf Landon analogy. Alf Landon was the Governor of a fairly small state who got eight total electoral votes. Two of the guys up for removal lost very very close elections (so close that major media outlets declared them the winner before declaring them the loser). One of them won a Nobel Prize. One of them organized an Olympics. pbp
I would also note the amount of American bloat we have in actors, activists, and several other sections. I again suggest we address that before culling more American politicians. pbp
- Also, this is only "most" of the post-1944 losers. There are pre-1944 losers, such as Lewis Cass 5 and John C. Breckinridge 5, that have not been nominated pbp
- I second this. Politicians usually have more influence and importance than celebrities (actors, musicians, activists, and more). Pop culture is usually contemporary and the celebrities that are focused on at one point will likely not be relevant in 10 years save for some truly exceptional instances. While removing some politicians is likely inevitable at one point in an effort to reduce this bias, recent celebrities should be cleaned out first. λ NegativeMP1
- I definitely think we could stand to cut more American celebrities, and I also think we could cut a few more American authors. Politicians aren't what we should be concerned about right now, because, as far as people go, it is one of the most important careers. QuicoleJR (talk)
- I definitely think we could stand to cut more American celebrities, and I also think we could cut a few more American authors. Politicians aren't what we should be concerned about right now, because, as far as people go, it is one of the most important careers. QuicoleJR (talk)
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I don't especially prioritize the Entertainers section, but the article describes her as "Widely acknowledged as the First Lady of Indian cinema".
- Support
- As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk)
- Iostn (talk)
- Support, we have the room, and while it's totally an assumption, I'm guessing Bollywood is under-represented relative to its impact. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- We could use some more worldwide representation in a lot of the biography sections. I'd be willing to cut a couple of American actors to add her if needed. She seems pretty important in India. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Seems to make sense. GauchoDude (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
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So this is rather an interesting/complicated case, he is currently listed under "video game designers", but he isn't technically responsible for design of video games themselves, rather he is most well-known for his technological work on developing the PlayStation, the system rather than the games themselves. He also became the chair/CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment and is currently president of another company, meaning he could be listed under businessmen. Even under Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Scientists, inventors, and mathematicians, there are two different subsections he could fit under, "Inventors and engineers" or "Computer scientists and programmers". Iostn (talk)
- @Iostn: In a situation like this, I would say split out his accomplishments by category, then place him according to whichever ones are most notable or outstanding. Do you have any opinion on that; I'm not sure I'll have time to skim the article myself. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Move to Inventors and engineers
- Support, nom suggests lead engineer of the PlayStation is his most notable achievement, so let's list him as an engineer. This section also still has room. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Most logical place for him Makkool (talk)
- Makes sense to me. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- Of the available options, this one seems like it makes most sense based on the history. GauchoDude (talk)
- Move to Computer scientists and programmers
- Move to Businesspeople
- Keep under Video game designers
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Alongside Tanni-Grey Thompson, another figure from Icons not in this list is Gertrude Bell, a traveller and writer who became "the first woman to map and travel across the Arabian Peninsula". Like Thompson, she is a runner up in her category, which is explorers, and I think it will be appropriate to add her in the Explorers section under Miscellaneous because of her importance.
- Support
- As nom. CrisBalboa1 (talk)
- Strong support, actually surprised she's not already listed. I don't know about the Icons program, but Bell is a pretty big deal historically, arguably the civilian counterpart to T. E. Lawrence 4. Also related, we list both Faisal I of Iraq and Abdullah I of Jordan 5. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Per above. Kevinishere15 (talk)
- 50 interwikis. Not bad. --Bluevestman (talk)
- Oppose
- Neutral
Weak oppose, I checked the talk page and the subject is currently rated at low importance in most WikiProjects. Sahaib (talk) 15:34, 22 January 2025 (UTC) Changed to neutral. Sahaib (talk)
- Discussion
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Vital Montenegrin politician due to him being prime minister (1991–1998, 2003–2006, 2008–2010, 2012–2016) and president (1998–2002, 2018–2023).
- Support
- As nominator. Sahaib (talk)
- Weak support, my first reaction is to oppose on procedural grounds (we have too many leader additions in play), but you opened this several weeks ago. Also IIUC we consider repeated terms in office as a strong precedent here to date. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- He was also seemingly a major figure in Montenegro gaining its independence. Seems important enough for Level 5. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Also weak support here. Echoing QuicoleJR's points here as per lede Đukanović appears to have been a factor in Montenegro's independence. GauchoDude (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
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Margaret, Maid of Norway is known for having a short disputed reign (similar to Lady Jane Grey who was recently removed), she was also 7 at her death making her possibly the youngest vital person listed. Malcolm III of Scotland, whose name means "great chief" reigned for 35 years during which he invaded England a number of times. Additionally he is major character in Macbeth, his wife was canonised as a saint and his daughter married Henry I of England making him the ancestor of all English monarchs after that.
- Support
- As nominator. Sahaib (talk)
- Support, I normally balk at swaps, but this one is a pretty clear jump in notability. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- Support add. --Bluevestman (talk)
- Agreed. GauchoDude (talk)
- Oppose
- Oppose remove. There's a huge difference between four years and nine days. --Bluevestman (talk)
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We currently list 19 video game developers. The page they are on has plenty of quota space, so I think we can add one more. Sakurai is the creator of two major franchises, Kirby (series) (almost vital but not quite) and Super Smash Bros. 5. The latter has led to Sakurai becoming a household name among video game fans. 25 interwikis, rated High-Importance by WikiProject Video games.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Definitely one of the most important video game developers as being responsible for creating the most popular fighting game series. λ NegativeMP1
- Surprised we have only 19 video game devs. Tabu Makiadi (talk)
- --Bluevestman (talk)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
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Solid article, but too much of a cult figure. "Never won a major pool tournament".
- Support
- Tabu Makiadi (talk)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Not vital enough. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Only two interwikis. --Bluevestman (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
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There are many prominent current right wing politicians in Europe that are not listed such as Matteo Salvini (Italy), Alice Weidel (Germany), Santiago Abascal (Spain), Jimmie Åkesson (Sweden), Sylvi Listhaug (Norway), etc. What differentiates Wilders from the above, as well as the few that are listed (Nigel Farage (UK), Marine Le Pen (France)) is that he has been the leader of the largest party in the House of Representatives since the 2023 Dutch general election.
- Support
- Support as nom. Sahaib (talk)
- Seems vital to me. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Iostn (talk)
- Huge political figure. Wouldn’t mind also adding Salvini.--Bluevestman (talk)
- Oppose
- Discussion
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I proposed this one back in November but it stalled at 3-1. Writers is over quota. A Confederacy of Dunces 5 is listed as a VA5 book, but it was published posthumously and it was one of only two books Toole wrote that were ever published. The man was already dead when the book came out, and it was his only work of any significance and one of his only two works, so I don't see a reason to list him. Listing A Confederacy of Dunces should be enough.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Agreed. GauchoDude (talk)
- per nom. starship.paint (talk / cont)
- Per nom. --Thi (talk)
- I don't think either JKT or Confederacy of Dunces are notable pbp
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
Courtesy ping to the other three participants in the previous proposal: @Makkool, Starship.paint, and Aurangzebra: QuicoleJR (talk)
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Nothing in this article gives me any sense of vitality. No global influence either judging by the artists he's most known for critiquing still being well respected.
- Support
- As nominator. GuzzyG (talk)
- Makkool (talk)
- Aye.GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Only three interwikis. --Bluevestman (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss
- Going to start off neutral on this. While we've got many nominated articles recently, seemingly for good reason, this one seems to pack a bit more juice. American Theater Hall of Fame inductee, namesake of the Walter Kerr Theatre, winner of the 1978 Pulitzer Prize for Criticism, co-wrote Goldilocks the musical with his wife which had the Best Actor and Best Actress Tony wins, etc. Don't know if that's enough, but certainly more substance than the other cuts have brought. GauchoDude (talk)
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Following a few discussions about the removal of some rappers, it got me thinking about what other figures in the rap scene could take their place, and Tyler is definitely the one that stuck out to me the most. His second album, Goblin, is cited in his lead as what brought him to mainstream popularity, with Yonkers (song) reaching the 2nd place spot in the 2011 Billboard singles chart. His subsequent albums, Flower Boy and Igor (album), debuted at 2nd and 1st place respectively, and Igor won an award for best rap album at the 2020 Grammys (It's also worth mentioning that these two albums contain cameos from artists such as Kanye West 5, Frank Ocean 5, and Lil Wayne 5, just to name a few). His latest album, Chromakopia, debuted at the number one spot in nine countries, including the US. If any of you are concerned about a potential recency bias with Tyler's inclusion, keep in mind that we list musicians like Billie Eilish 5, even though her career only began in 2017.
- Support
- As nom. SameOldSameOldSameOld (talk) SameOldSameOldSameOld (talk)
- Oppose
- Not influential enough, mere popularity is not enough. Also, I don't think we should list Eilish either. But people were opposed to removing her. λ NegativeMP1
- pbp
- Has yet to even have a 1/4 million sales album or a year-end top 50 US Billboard album. Certainly, not yet. Continued success at the current level would not get him there either.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
- per TonyTheTiger. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Neutral
- Discuss
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We still list too many American/Canadian authors, and Biggers is another example of someone only famous for one work. Biggers is the author of the Charlie Chan series, which is not listed as vital. Only one of his other works even has an article, and said article has zero interwikis. If we think Charlie Chan is vital, we should swap him out for it. If we do not think that Charlie Chan is vital, his other works don't add anything to his vitality and he should be removed. Also, for people who care about pageviews, Charlie Chan beats the author by a landslide.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk)
- pbp
- Agreed. GauchoDude (talk)
- Page is overquota and he indeed does not seem important enough.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
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We currently list 14 NFL quarterbacks (not players, quarterbacks), which is too many. Out of the ones we list, Young seems like one of the least vital ones. He isn't considered one of the best, and we don't need to list every quarterback who wins three Super Bowls. I think we should cut down NFL players from 40 to 30, and that involves cutting some less-important quarterbacks. Young isn't that much more important than Troy Aikman, who is not listed and has the same number of Super Bowl wins. Young also only has 18 interwikis, which is less than Aikman.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- pbp
- support Carlwev
- EchoVanguardZ (talk)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
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Seems like a somewhat prolific author, but none of his books seem to have had any sort of impact and he has not won any major awards. Nothing in his article makes him stand out as vital, and we list too many modern American authors.
- Support
- As nom. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Agreed. Prolific author, but not a GOAT it seems. GauchoDude (talk)
- 32 interwikis, but his bio doesn't make any claim of major influence of fame (minor awards, no section in influence or importance); his most popular work is the 87th Precinct series, but it has just 4 interwikis. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here
- pbp
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
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Jugurtha gets more pageviews than his father-in-law Bocchus I and all other kings of Numidia before it was divided into Eastern and Western Numidia except for Masinissa who is already listed. The only reason to keep Bocchus I is to have a king of Mauretania included as opposed to having two kings of the neighbouring Numidia. Though Numidia is a level 5 vital article whereas Mauretania is not, so having two kings seems reasonable.
- Support
- As nom. Sahaib (talk)
- Strong support for add, neutral on remove. Aurangzebra (talk)
- Oppose
- Mixed
- Support add, oppose removal. I'm getting nervous about the cushion in Leaders, but for now, let's just keep this simple. We can start trimming in the next round. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Per Zar. If leaders goes over, we should probably cut from modernity, not antiquity. pbp
- Discussion
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Her husband, Robert Delaunay 5, is of similar importance – if we could only list one of the two, I'd prefer Sonia.
- Support
- As nom. Would much prefer a straight add, but second choice swap with Robert. J947 ‡ edits
- Yes to add.--109.81.84.33 (talk)
- Yes to add, but a strong oppose to removing her husband, the much stronger artist of the two. Randy Kryn (talk)
- Yes to add, strong oppose remove per Randy. Aurangzebra (talk)
- Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- Oppose
- Support swap
- Discussion
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The lead states that "Ito's work has developed a substantial cult following, and Ito has been called an iconic horror manga artist." He is best known for manga such as Uzumaki and Tomie, which have been adapted into an anime and film series respectively.
- Support
- As nom. SameOldSameOldSameOld (talk)
- Per nom. CopiousAmountofCannons (talk)
- Agreed. A very recognizable name in the field of horror manga. Dillbobther (talk)
- Iostn (talk)
- Oppose
- Neutral
- Discuss
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When a high school football player is on the results higher than any secondary sources about this guy, that's a cause for concern. Nobody has even bothered to write an article about him outside of English Wikipedia, which makes it even worse since people criticize interwikis for being Western-biased. LA Times is only V5, it does not need many subtopics.
- Support
- As nom. -1ctinus📝🗨
- Harrison Gray Otis is a better representative of the LA Times pbp
- Support Carlwev
- I'd like to swap him with Otis, although I also support a simple removal. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Aye. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- Kevinishere15 (talk)
- Agreed. GauchoDude (talk)
- Zero interwikis. --Bluevestman (talk)
Italian singers (set 2 of 2)
I would like to propose to add these singers to the "Italian" subsection of "Non-English language popular music". (Here: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Artists, musicians, and composers.)
They are really "the very top of their trade". They all appear on the list here: List of estimated best-selling Italian music artists.
Update. Umberto Tozzi was unexplainably swapped for some unknown people in this edit: [4].
--Moscow Connection (talk)
Add Gianni Morandi 5
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A very famous Italian singer. I wonder why he is not on the list.
- Support
- As nom. Moscow Connection (talk)
- Per nom. Makkool (talk)
- Weak support, Italian pop singers may or may not be over-represented now; the page organization makes it hard to get a clear sense of balance. I'll defer to the nom on this one, but going forward, we'll probably want to trim Italian pop musicians before adding more. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Weak support, also deferring to nom. It sounds like they're a large figure in Italian pop music and has been for quite some time. Larger article on it.wiki as expected goes into greater depth. GauchoDude (talk)
- Oppose
- Low-importance on Wikiproject Italy and I don't think we want to be adding any more musicians than we absolutely should since this is an area that's already oversubscribed. Aurangzebra (talk)
- Neutral
- Discuss
Add Umberto Tozzi
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A very famous Italian singer-songwriter. I think he is more relevant to the English-speaking community than most of the current list.
- Support
- As nom. Moscow Connection (talk)
- Per nom. Makkool (talk)
- Weak support, Italian pop singers may or may not be over-represented now; the page organization makes it hard to get a clear sense of balance. I'll defer to the nom on this one, but going forward, we'll probably want to trim Italian pop musicians before adding more. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Oppose
- Low-importance on Wikiproject Italy and I don't think we want to be adding any more musicians than we absolutely should since this is an area that's already oversubscribed. Aurangzebra (talk)
- IMO, seems like a great artist but lacks vitality claim. Maybe a case for total album sales, but that feels more a result of being really great at your job. GauchoDude (talk)
- Neutral
- Discuss
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Curling is at level 4, so there should probably be some more curlers added. Edin is arguably the greatest European curler of all time, so should probably be added.
- Support
- As nominator. Sahaib (talk)
- Swap with Tony Allcock 5, support otherwise. Sounds important enough. I made it clear that I don't like that this project is going to cut some people just to appeal someone who has made it clear they're not going to be satisfied until we reduce the number of sportspeople on here to the amount that's on level 4. If we need to get rid of someone we got this zero interwiki bowler right here. --Bluevestman (talk)
- Oppose
- Weak oppose for now, largely a matter of timing. There's a concerted effort to trim the athletes section right now, regardless of whether the quota changes. Part of that is figuring out how much representation less mainstream sports like curling should have. If we decide down the road we need more curlers, I would be fine adding him then. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- I don't think we should be adding to the number of curlers at this time. We are way over the quota. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Weak oppose also. There is very little separating him from teammate Oskar Eriksson, also unlisted, and they are among the most decorated in the sport's history. I would have trouble putting one in over the other when there really is no differentiating factors for either. GauchoDude (talk)
- Niklas Edin is the skipper of his team, so we can list him to represent the team. Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- Niklas Edin is the skipper of his team, so we can list him to represent the team. Lophotrochozoa (talk)
- Discuss
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Per this except from the article "Chen, who has been referred to as one of the greatest men's figure skaters of all time by news outlets, holds the highest winning percentage in competitions in the modern era with a more-than-three-year winning streak from 2018 to 2021 in what has been described as one of the most dominant four-year stretches in the sport's history."
- Support
- As nominator. Sahaib (talk)
- Changing to strong support; we removed 2 figure skaters to balance so I can get behind this as promised. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Agreed. GauchoDude (talk)
- --Bluevestman (talk)
- Oppose
Very weak oppose for now, entirely based on timing and our current pruning. I'm not even into figure skating, but I'm aware of him from the Olympics. If someone starts a separate proposal to cut 2 other figure skaters though, I'll switch to strong support. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- Discuss
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Axelsen was the world number one for 183 weeks, the third-longest reign in badminton history.
- Support
- As nominator. Sahaib (talk)
- Swap with Iris Kyle 5, otherwise support. Kyle has only seven interwikis.--Bluevestman (talk)
- Oppose
- Weak oppose for now, largely a matter of timing. There's a concerted effort to trim the athletes section right now, regardless of whether the quota changes. Part of that is figuring out how much representation less mainstream sports like badminton should have. If we decide down the road we need more, I would be fine adding him then. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- We do not need to add any more badminton players right now. If anything, I think we could remove a couple of them. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Per above. GauchoDude (talk)
- Discuss
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As a 6xWNBA All-Star, 3x Olympic Gold, 2x World Cup gold and 2xNaismith College Player of the Year, she is still a notch below vital as a player. However, as a coach she is also an Olympic Gold, World Cup Gold, 3x NCAA Division I women's basketball tournament champion and 4x coach of the year. Given the dozens of athletes that are being removed, we have a chance to get female basketball bios up to a reasonable proportion compared to the men.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
- Support
- as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
- Weak support, she has an established career, helps with bias towards men's sports, and we are trimming elsewhere. Let's go ahead and wrap this up. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)
- per nom Aurangzebra (talk)
- --Bluevestman (talk)
- Oppose
- Oppose adds to sports people that don't have a specific swap in mind to avoid the category growing unchecked. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- User:GeogSage, I do understand your efforts and intentions. However, even in areas that are over quota, we have not required swaps and I don't see any consensus for such a policy.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
- My vote is oppose, my rational is that I don't want additions to sports until we can get the category reduced dramatically. It doesn't have to be policy, that is my vote and reason for it. I also don't think winning a lot of awards makes someone vital to the course of humanity, this isn't a sports Hall of Fame list. If the athlete isn't the single GOAT, I'd want to see how they have impacted the sport or world outside of the sport. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- My vote is oppose, my rational is that I don't want additions to sports until we can get the category reduced dramatically. It doesn't have to be policy, that is my vote and reason for it. I also don't think winning a lot of awards makes someone vital to the course of humanity, this isn't a sports Hall of Fame list. If the athlete isn't the single GOAT, I'd want to see how they have impacted the sport or world outside of the sport. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔)
- User:GeogSage, I do understand your efforts and intentions. However, even in areas that are over quota, we have not required swaps and I don't see any consensus for such a policy.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD)
- Neutral
- Discussion
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Zero interwikis, do I even need to say anything else? Warden of a non vital prison, who wrote a few books that don't even have articles, some of which were made into mildly successful movies.
- Support
- As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk)
- None of his books are notable and he isn't vital as a warden. There is no reason to keep him, especially since it looks like we will reduce the quota for miscellaneous people soon. QuicoleJR (talk)
- Support removal. Accidentally re-nominated, oops -1ctinus📝🗨
- pbp
- Agreed. GauchoDude (talk)
- Oppose
- Discuss