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We list all the years of the 20th century. I think it would make sense to list these years as well.
While I agree with @TonyTheTiger that time since 1776 is important (I'd even say that everything before that was either practice or a mistake), I think including decades like this would be a mistake as well. We can focus on specific events that are notable I think, rather then broadly just declare that all of time is vital. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 02:59, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Honestly, I've never liked the idea of including timeline articles at VA. They're essentially chronological list articles, and we typically discourage lists. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
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As the name implies, this is the broad study and use of quantitative geographic methods. This includes things like spatial statistics and most of cartography. Full disclosure, this is one of the pages I originated.
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As the name implies, this is the broad study and use of qualitative geographic methods. This includes thins like geopoetics and some cartographic practices. Full disclosure, this is one of the pages I originated.
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Time geography is an important framework for studying spatial temporal data. It is what is being used to analyze things like mobile phone data.
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As the name implies, this is the page discussing the philosophy of geography. The page needs tremendous improvement, but it is a meta topic that is vital to understanding the discipline of geography.
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@TonyTheTiger, this is history and geography, analysis is a broader discipline but not under this umbrella. In geography, this is more vital of a concept then any place we have, as in 1000 years the places may all be memories, but the concepts in the discipline will likely remain. Geography is not just an umbrella to put all the cities under, if so we should change it to Toponomy instead.GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 22:43, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
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This sub-discipline of geography is used to describe scientific study of spatial data and development of methods. It is similar to geoinformatics and quantitative geography, and popular among British and American geographers.
@TonyTheTiger, this is history and geography, information science is a broader discipline but not under this umbrella. In geography, this is more vital of a concept then any place we have, as in 1000 years the places will all be memories, but the concepts in the discipline will likely remain.
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Visualizations and techniques used to display and study spatial data. Think maps.
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Branch of geography specifically focused on using geostatistics, among other things.
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Branch of statistics that handles spatial data and widely employed in geography.
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Making maps with computers as opposed to traditional pen and paper cartography.
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A term used to describe land belonging to or associated with a person or animal.
Regions are subjective groupings of places. Place is a very complex concept. I guess and example could be: The land claimed by the United States is the territory of the United States, the Midwest is a region within the United States, and the Statue of Liberty is a place in the United States. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 05:01, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
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Activity space is a concept in time geography that refers to the "set of places individuals encounter as a result of their routine activities in everyday life." This is particularly relevant with cell phone location tracking today.
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Scale is one of the central concepts in geography. It should be included.
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Location is the closest Wikipedia article I can find to the concept of place, which is a core concept in geography. It should be included.
This is the most important of this whole batch, IMO and the only one I could see myself supporting possibly. However, I am a bit confused. This seems to be a two dimensional metric in a three dimensional world. Suppose you give the coordinates on a mountain. The exact same coordinates would apply to a cave underneath it or something in the air overhead. For any point the two coordinates uniquely identify a ray from the earth' core to infinity, i guess.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:41, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
This is VERY astute question and a quirk of the English language I'm afraid. For location tends to be a bit broader then place and space, but it is still used interchangeably. Space is your X, Y, Z coordinates which can work in 3D, and is a bit closer to the use of the word location, but would be closer to the word "absolute location". The issue is that maps are limited models of reality, so often condense the 3D world onto a 2D representation that only has one layer visible. In your example, the mountain, cave, and airspace can all share a X and a Y, while having a different Z coordinate. The difference with location and space is that you could describe it with absolute coordinates, or relative to other things (relative location), like saying "the cave is under the mountain, or the plane is over the mountain." In this way we describe the location of something by using something else, which is how humans really thought spatially for most of our history. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 22:38, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
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I suspect @Dora the Axe-plorer might have added that without fully understanding how articles are voted on and added. It could be easy to think we can just boldy edit the list, learning the ropes procedures on Wikipedia is daunting. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 18:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Hi, yes it was a Bold edit based on my own assessment of its significance historically and within the geoscience community. I'm actually unfamiliar about the voting process and never made aware of it. My bad on that. Dora the Axe-plorer (explore) 18:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Dora the Axe-plorer, you are free to make a nomination on this page. The process takes at least 15 days and could take over 15 weeks for a consensus to be determined for your nomination. You can see a variety of nominations above. You might point to the Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/History#West_Asia subsection of the Contemporary history section. You might also point to other topics of similar importance or higher level topics that might provide parentage for the article on the list using the {{VA link}} which produces an article link along with a level link. Mimic the formating of other nominations above.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
I went ahead and opened up a proposal for this (first one is free!) There is a bit of a process here with a small learning curve, but it's really not too rigid and we're always looking for more participants. Level 5 actually did allow boldly adding to unfinished lists until about a year ago, but once we got close enough to 50,000, we agreed we should run everything through the process.
For things like proposals, it's essentially just copy-paste the standard layout, then fill in the specifics. Besides that, it's mostly like any other talk page only with voting. If you stick around, you'll probably want to read the rules at the top and on the main WP:VA page, but even many of those really come down to courtesies or details only relevant to proposal closers.
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I added that article in not only because it's a historical event that, as of now, averages to 2,648 views per day within 20 days, but because it is clearly an important event of Indian pro-independence movements and subsequent violent reactions by the British Empire and fueled anger towards the United Kingdom in the long run. There was some empty space within level 5 articles so I added it in boldly, but alternatively I can make a proposal here if necessary. PrimalMustelid (talk) 22:40, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
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Was an independent country for some time, and was a Swiss canton for some time after that. It fought several wars and had an impact on the history of Switzerland for the two centuries it existed for. It ended up being split into two Swiss cantons. Rated High-Importance by WikiProject Switzerland. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
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Another historical region of Latvia. We could add more of them, but suggesting these two for now.
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Another historical region from European part of Russia
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I just noticed that Solidarity is listed in the history page, which is confusing to me, because it is an active trade union with hundreds of thousands of members, not a historical event (although I understand it was extremely important during the 1980s). I'm proposing it be moved to the individual trade unions list, which I think is a better fit. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:37, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Weak oppose. Solidarity as a trade union is not VA5 in my opinion. I can't find current membership estimates but considering the trajectory, it most likely wouldn't even crack the top 100 largest trade unions in the world by active membership. All the trade unions we currently list are still massive and influential today. We could instead swap for the History of Solidarity article which, though it has only 6 interwikis, was a featured article. However, I'm fine with making Solidarity an exception we keep in History. Aurangzebra (talk) 21:33, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
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We do have Hurricane Katrina on this list since it was the costliest Atlantic hurricane in history. However, we don't list other costly hurricanes in history like this one and it wasn't as bad as Katrina was. Yes, it devastated Puerto Rico pretty badly, but I think there are better ones to list other than this one specifically.
After some more thought on other disaster-related proposals, I agree with Iostn. Maybe we decide to cut this down the road, but for now, we should probably be adding disasters for balance. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:32, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Meh. I don't think we should list only one Atlantic hurricane (that being Katrina), even if this isn't the greatest choice for a second one. You could also make the argument of this hurricanes effects outside of the contiguous United States giving it a reason to be listed for representation purposes. I'll support if you list some hurricanes that you'd include over Maria. λNegativeMP100:16, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
I think in a couple years, we should consider adding Hurricane Helene. I think it probably passes the bar now, but I also think that if I nominated it now, some people would oppose it because it was so recent. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:38, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
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Large, devastating tornado, the subject of numerous studies. Currently one of only nine EF5 tornadoes to ever touch down worldwide, wiped Greensburg, Kansas (a city of 1,300) off the map, 95% of the city was destroyed. Second-widest in Kansas history, deadliest in the history of Kiowa and Comanche counties, and one of the costliest, inflicting $250 million (2007 USD) in damages to both counties. One of its biggest claims to fame is being the first EF5-rated tornado to ever touch down, a milestone in tornado history. Also planning on nominating 2013 El Reno tornado, but that's for another discussion.
Yeah... this is actually an interesting thought. Even if it's a bit recent, we probably do under-represent natural disasters. We at least list the Mt Vesuvius eruption in European history, but don't list Mt. St. Helens, or even the Kamikaze (typhoon) that ended Mongol attempts on Japan. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:47, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Good quality article, one of the most important tornadoes. If Tri-state is not LVL5 vital yet, then I would get that one on here too. Wildfireupdateman (talk)
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Island close to the mainland. Most, but not all of the city of Portsmouth is on the island of Portsea. Yes it's the second highest population island of Britain after the mainland, but that's more of a trivia fact than an important geographical topic. If we think UK may be over represented, in a vital list, this island is covered by the city itself, plus we also list Hampshire as well. It's very close to the mainland, the channel that separates it from the mainland is only navigable by small boats part of the time, sometimes it is so low at low tide one can almost walk across it, meaning it is an island but just. Portsea is not geographically or culturally distinct like the Channel Islands, Isle of Mann or even the Isle of Wight. We could either reduce the list by one or list another English City not listed like Peterborough, Wakefield, Doncaster, Salford, instead of giving Portsmouth two spaces.
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Proposing for similar reasons as Causes of World War I and World War II.
After some thought, sure. If there's any redundancy, that should be handled within the articles, then reflected as moot at VA. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:47, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
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Weak support, we still have a little slack in History. We can come back later and re-evaluate whether WWII is over-represented more systematically. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
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As with Stirling above, a "city" of just under 50,000 in a region/country that's OVERrepresented. Also somewhat redundant to the Scottish Highlands, themselves listed at VA5 and rather sparsely populated with total of 600,000 pbp15:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
Regarded as the capital of the Scottish Highlands. Largest population for a city in the Highlands. Historically important city for the area, and a center for local administration. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
Is the Scottish Highlands a large and significant enough area that both it and his "capital" need to be listed? It's smaller than all but the smallest U.S. states. Even Scotland as a whole is smaller than a lot of U.S. states. pbp18:23, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
I think it's relative to population. UK is not as large as the US, so we're going to find smaller places to be vital. What comes to your question, then yes, the Highlands are an imporant enough region relative to Scotland, to include at least one city. Again, I find no reason to compare it to places in the US. Makkool (talk) 19:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
This one's actually kind of hard because IIUC, while Inverness is small, it's also pretty historical. Its relationship to the historical Macbeth also arguably adds a little something. I'm neutral overall, but let's see where the proposal goes. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:47, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
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One of the largest and longest periods of political conflict in Europe since WW2, if we are listing individual post-9/11 European terror attacks here, then this definitely needs to be listed.
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Add several geography topics (set 2 of 2)
Currently have a discussion open here on broadly reorganizing sections in geography. This will take ALOT of work, but will need to start by adding some pages that I believe are vital to the discipline. These pages are more theory/methods based within geography as compared to the places that dominate the section.
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A sub-discipline of geography similar to quantiative geography and GIScience, it is popular among European geographers and computer scientists working with spatial data. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 22:43, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
@TonyTheTiger, this is history and geography, informatics is a broader discipline but not under this umbrella. In geography, this is more vital of a concept then any place we have, as in 1000 years the places will all be memories, but the concepts in the discipline will likely remain.GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 22:43, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
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A concept concerning the meaning of places to their inhabitants. Concepts like "sacred" and "home" are related to this. Place and Space3 are two of the most central key concepts in geography within the literature.
There is overlap I think between this and culture. Place identity has a specific location associated with it, and can be both individual based and broad. For example, your home has a different meaning to you then to someone else. Sacred land to one culture is mundane in another. A historic building might have a strong meaning in a minority neighborhood. Place is not quantifiable really. It's a fun debate really, this is one of the criticisms of geographies Quantitative revolution5 that Critical geography5 has brought up. As humans, we know that place is important, and can understand that place can shape individual and cultural identity, but quantifying that isn't possible. How to you measure the meaning of the Notre-Dame de Paris4 to citizens of France in forming their shared identify? I'd recommend reading Yi-Fu Tuan5's body of literature (or just his Wiki) if you're interested! -- GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 06:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
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The first and perhaps the most influential of the World's fair4s. A landmark of international collaboration and competition, showcasing technological and cultural artifacts, such as The Crystal Palace.
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A significant insurgency confict in the Philippines.
Support, not sure if this article goes over the whole history, but long-lasting and important to the history of the Philippines. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 16:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
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The articles Qajar dynasty5 and Safavid dynasty4 are vital articles despite being only the dynasties for the countries they ruled, the much larger pages Qajar Iran and Safavid Iran. The latter two articles, about the countries themselves, are obviously the "vital" and more important of the two; 1319 words (Qajar dynasty) vs 7585 words (Qajar Iran) and 1239 words (Safavid dynasty) vs 19185 words (Safavid Iran). I don't see how we managed to have such mismatch in VA-ness, but these should of course be swapped.
I personally think the dynasties are more important than the states themselves (and some evidence to back this is up is the fact that both dynasties have more interwikis than their state counterparts). It's a shame that the dynasty pages are not great but that's the point of this whole VA5 project: to identify important pages that may have gaps in content and quality and fix them. Aurangzebra (talk) 19:32, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
Support adding the countries, oppose removing the dynasties. I definitely don't think we need all 4 articles in the long-run, but presumably there's a lot of redundancy between them. This is precisely the sort of case where, when we have the room, I think we should intentionally show redundancies on the list. That way it stands out, and maybe one day someone that reviews the list will be inspired to merge the articles. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:01, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
Just to clarify the margin, this is at a very close 3-1 for adding the historical countries, currently 2-2 for removing the dynasties. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:06, 31 January 2025 (UTC)
Sorry, at the time I didn't know that support add/oppose remove was on the table. Since that is an option, I can support that and make this 4-0. Aurangzebra (talk) 08:19, 5 February 2025 (UTC)
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If we're adding Greater India5, we should add Greater China too, as a term with more interwikis and greater implications in business and marketing.
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A famous pass through the White Mountains on the border of present-day Afghanistan and Pakistan. This has arguably been the primary land link between Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent for millennia.
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The quantitative revolution in geography is a paradigm shift in geography that took place after the first world war. It is marked by new methods and technologies, such as computers, GPS, satellites, and spatial analysis methods. Most of the thematic maps we have today are products of this revolution.
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Critical geography is an old term with a new spin. It dates back quite a long time, but has mostly become synonymous with modern Critical theory5. It is one of the dominant paradigms in modern academic geography, along with quantitative folks.
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Studies the relationship between cultures and landscape. Very high order field, started by Carl O. Sauer5, a huge name in the discipline.
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Mostly a subset of critical geography, applies feminist critiques to understanding spatial phenomena.
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Mostly a subset of critical geography, applies Marxist critiques to understanding spatial phenomena.
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Weak oppose. I've supported its inclusion previously as a fairly populous scientific university city with its own character. It's fairly distinct from Helsinki proper. J947 ‡ edits05:47, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
Discuss
At level 4 we list both Rotterdam and The Hague which are kind of in the same metro area, and Google says they are around 24 km apart, about the same as Espoo/Helsinki, which Google says they are 25 km apart by road. We also list London at level 3, then City of London and City of Westminster at level 5. If we are to discus whether these suburb/close-by-cities of other cities are vital or not, I think the discussion needs to be more thorough than "close to, or within, another city" as some almost identical cases exist and are not brought up and are almost given a free pass. Especially if we list all of New York Boroughs; is Staten Island really more important than Espoo?... Also we list Wall Street at level 5 which is about an individual street as well as New York Stock Exchange, which is about the financial topics at level 4, Central Park at level 4 and Manhattan at 5. Carlwev 19:18, 30 January 2025 (UTC)
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Similar to the Mau Mau rebellion which is listed. Average casualty estimate of 30,000 to 40,000.
Per above. The project needs a bit of a shake down to make sure we have room for really important stuff, but I think this would be more "vital" then many of the things we include. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 22:14, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
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I'm a bit shocked this isn't included. This is an extremely significant Navy battle from WWI. To quote the lede "It was the largest naval battle and only full-scale clash of battleships of the war, and the outcome ensured that the Royal Navy denied the German surface fleet access to the North Sea and the Atlantic for the remainder of the war, as Germany avoided all fleet-to-fleet contact thereafter. Jutland was also the last major naval battle, in any war, fought primarily by battleships."
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List Europe as part of Eurasia in the physical geography section
FAILED
Eurasia heading not recommended 1-3, closing a bit early per WP:SNOW. However, one opposing vote noted several Phys Geo sections already subdivide Asia. Promoting those to headers at the same level as Europe would implicitly equalize parts of Eurasia while sidestepping the issues with an explicit header. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 19:13, 8 February 2025 (UTC)
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As @GeogSage: pointed out on the main talk page, Europe is, from a physical geography point of view, not a continent but a peninsula of Eurasia. Thus I would like to list the subsections about Europe in the physical geography sections as part of the sections about Asia, which would thus be renamed "Eurasia". However, that change might violate the original research policy; I'm not familiar with the academic literature.
Support
Strong support. I'm working on trying to get a proposal together to resolve some of these problems, but looking at fixing the geography section with the fewest moves gives me tension headaches. The word continent is extremely problematic, and like the word "Race," is overly simplified, the boundaries are blurry, and most of the ideas in the public conciousness are due to outdates and slightly racist world views. For examle, from a physical geography standpoint, part of Japan is on the North American plate. A map of the North American plate. From a human geography standpoint, there is not a definition of "continent" that results in Europe being included without many other additions to the list, like India, the Middle East, or splitting Africa into several distinct regions (like Subsaharan Africa and North Africa.) .GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 17:49, 27 January 2025 (UTC)
Vital articles is a project specifically for English Wikipedia and Europe is considered a continent in the English-speaking world (see the note in the very first section for the Europe article). I know there are probably some geographic controversies to this but it is what most English speakers grew up learning. I don't want to confuse readers for the purpose of appealing to pedants. Aurangzebra (talk) 17:53, 27 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose nesting, entirely for technical reasons. I get that Europe is largely a social construct, even if the Urals are the (arbitrary) conventional boundary. For human-readable lists like this though, and especially given Mediawiki's quirks, deeper nesting gets ugly fast. We already subdivide Asia regionally in several Phys Geo sections though; if someone wants to boldly bump those up to the same header-level as Europe (and subdivide Europe when appropriate), I'm all for it. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 16:48, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
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These may have "peaked" during certain historical events, but they are existing entities with ongoing influence, so they should be in Organizations.
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A suburb of Busan4 which is not otherwise historically significant or touristy.
Weak support, largely just to close this one out, but we're close to quota on cities and I get the feeling we'll be cutting them at some point in the future. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:47, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
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Remove all list-ish Country subdivision articles
PASSED
Removal plan approved 4-0, excepting articles similar in content to U.S. State. Cutting articles will be paced out over the coming days; edit description on list will link to this (archived) proposal. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 21:31, 12 February 2025 (UTC)
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Upfront, I'm proposing this with the intent of getting Countries & Subdivisions down to around 1,300. Then I intend to start a clean proposal here to shave that section's quota by 100; Makkool and I have already discussed this some in a previous proposal.
Looking over the page, I think a relatively straight-forward change would be to cut all "<Subdivisions> of <Country>" articles for now. Only some of them are marked officially as lists, but even the ones that aren't are listed here with that intent. Including the Autonomous administrative division article under General, I get with a quick skim that this should cut about 50 articles.
If you're thinking "but this would cause coverage gaps for countries without specific listed subdivisions", I'd argue just putting in the list article was always at best a placeholder. If we really want to improve balance while keeping this level of detail, we should be trimming specific regions from other countries to create space instead. And yes, even the U.S. state5 article is on the table.
I'm almost sure there be some doubts so I'm going to create a separate "exceptions" area. If there's one or two you feel strongly about, put them there (without numbering), and if anyone seconds that exception, we can spinoff an individual subproposal. Just please don't spam the exceptions; only list a few you feel really strong about if you otherwise support the proposal.
Support all or most cautiously. Love the bold proposal. I agree this needs to be trimmed and the list is approaching the point we need to make tough decisions. I'd prefer we get cuts from the "People" section, but this is a great example of another area we can cut. If possible, I'd like to try and keep the at least half the quota we free up in the geography section for other various additions that fall under geography. There are some broad reorganizations of geography I've discussed on other pages that could use the elbow room (the theortical model I have in mind will require some of the sub pages to be renamed). STEM has some sections that are filling up that I'd support shifting the other half to if we aren't keeping them here. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 21:23, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
As I have previously said, it's not the delineation of a country's subdivisions that is vital, but the subdivisions themselves. J947 ‡ edits22:06, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
Yeah, I didn't realize there's a separate List of states and territories of the United States, which we don't include. This one is definitely more of full article describing how they function politically.
How about this? Instead of worrying about a separate proposal, we'll use the U.S. state article as a benchmark. It will take a bit longer (only a bit), but assuming this passes, I'll skim each article before removing. And if its ratio of content to list is close to this one, I'll pass over it. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:30, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
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Edit: I wasn't sure where to put this under at first, so I initially listed it under a "STEM" category submission. I have now moved it under being a History submission. B3251(talk)19:49, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
Strong oppose here, neutral under History. Of all the things the CIA ever got up to, I've always considered this relatively tame and more of a fringe topic, but might be worth listing as part of the Cold War. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:42, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
History may be a more suitable option, I was thinking of experiments when I nominated this. My Sociology professor was talking about the Milgram experiment5 & Stanford prison experiment5 which reminded me of MKUltra. Surprised it wasn’t already nominated. I haven’t checked, but wherever the other two experiments I listed might be a good place to list this. B3251(talk)16:25, 28 January 2025 (UTC)
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Was the capitol of several empires who reigned in the Indian subcontinent, and was once one of the largest cities in the world.
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I do not think Sardinia4 (pop. 1.6M) needs two cities.
Weak support, largely just to close this one out, but we're close to quota on cities and I get the feeling we'll be cutting them at some point in the future. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:47, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Eh, Siracusa is very important historically and fits in better with the historical city section, but the other three are somewhat large cities and meet the general population criteria for a Western European city. 🍋🟩 OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk)20:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
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Support, after some thought, we're still filling in the section and can worry about over-representation later. Also, by my "some overlap at Lv5 is good" principle, let's list this alongside the other article; if they're redundant, that should be reconciled within the articles. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:47, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Oppose
We already list French conquest of Algeria5, and the two interwikis that this article has makes me skeptical to believe it's important outside of the central article. There's not even an article on this topic in Arabic. But at the same time, genocides have historically been neglected by the masses (and that's generally what allows them to happen in the first place), so maybe my mind could be changed. λNegativeMP122:05, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
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Not added, 2-3 for 2nd millennium, 1-4 for first; proposal over 2 months old, closing a bit early per WP:BUREAU. Opposition based on date articles being overly broad, generic, or list-like. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:01, 19 February 2025 (UTC)
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These cover major important events in world history. Should be listed alongside centuries as well.
Oppose both, I've honestly never liked the idea of including timeline articles at VA. They're essentially chronological list articles, and we typically discourage lists. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
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Right now, Wall Street is categorized in geography, but I don't think it should go there. My thoughts are that it could go either in economics or architecture. What do you think? Interstellarity (talk) 02:00, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't pick Architecture. I don't think the buildings themselves are particularly exceptional and it's technically the whole street with several institutions, not just the NYSE.
The logic for Economics is clearer, but I would still lean towards Geography. In a way, most of the articles we list in Geography (outside the Phys Geo section) are also just cultural institutions (towns, countries, etc.) situated in a time and place. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 03:55, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
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An important colonial war that led to the creation of French Indochina4.
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Eh, I'm open to being convinced but I don't think we need an article here about transport viewed from a geographers' perspective. I'd rather some extra Urban planning4 concepts. J947 ‡ edits23:51, 31 January 2025 (UTC)
I mean, I know several Urban planners, they all have geography degrees. My geography department has several alumni in planning, we teach classes on transport/urban topics, I took a transportation geography class taught by a city planner, and I know a lot of people who went to school with me who are in planning now, so not exaggerating. We tend to view urban planning as largely applied geography. Just a few examples, UNC Greensboro Bachelor's in Geography - Urban Planning, Old Dominion University [Geography with a Major in Urban Planning & Emergency/Hazards Management (BS)], and ASU School of Geographical Sciences and Urban Planning does offer a separate urban planning degree through their department, but it is partnered with geography. Transport geography IS a urban planning concept as far as I'm aware. Time geography5, Urban geography, and Central place theory5 are all very involved in planning. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 04:01, 14 February 2025 (UTC)
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I thought of this while commenting in some of the natural disaster proposals. These are the storms that destroyed Mongol fleets attempting to invade Japan. Besides the historical importance, it's arguably the East Asian equivalent to the Spanish Armada5 that attempted to invade England, which we already list. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
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Puducherry is a disambiguation page and should not be listed. Considering where Puducherry is placed under Level 5, it looks like the Indian city Puducherry (now known as Pondicherry) was what was meant to be listed.
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A major tourist destination in Germany. Place under Physical geography#Islands.
Changing to oppose. I would also support Frisian Islands instead. Besides, I don't think I've seen many locations known mainly for tourism listed as vital. Makkool (talk) 20:49, 22 February 2025 (UTC)
Discuss
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Support, we have the room and "some overlap at Lv5" is good so adding the famine is straight-forward. As for removing 2022 Kazakh unrest, it's a very recent article on geopolitics, which typically means some agenda pushing. Probably best to delist it for now; we can always re-add it in a few years out if hindsight confirms its importance. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:47, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
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After Zar2gar1's suggestion. A cultural-historical region, also known as the Indian cultural sphere.
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Another Zar2gar1's suggestion. Also known as the Persosphere or Iranosphere.
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Historical region in Central Asia, in areas of modern-day Tajikistan and Afghanistan.
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Another Central Asian region, the land of the Baloch people5. In areas of modern-day Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan.
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Historical region of Persia of antiquity, a part of Greater Iran.
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They could very well be merged together; moving the geocultural areas out of Culture and into Geography. That feel the wisest. Makkool (talk) 13:17, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
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Another European historical region. The Low Countries consists of the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxerbourg, and parts of Northern Germany and France. 60 languages
Yep, that's in Politics and economics, which is a right place for it. Benelux is more about the economic union of the countries, and this is the geographical side. Makkool (talk) 23:07, 14 February 2025 (UTC)
Yep. This is a problem with regional geography, the cake can be sliced infinite numbers of ways so there is tremendous overlap in regions. We may need to find a way to sort this out later and I pitty the poor soul that needs to go after this section for removals, but add for now. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 23:11, 14 February 2025 (UTC)
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The untimely death of Michael Jackson3 in 2009 was an extremely impactful event. Several websites crashed, it dominated the news for weeks, and it was the second-most covered event in all of human history on social media at the time, second only to Obama's election. It also made the historical top 10 for most news media coverage. This event is certainly vital.
So, to a certain extent, I get the idea behind wanting to list this. Being the article about the death of the most famous pop culture figure to ever live, who is also V3. But that's exactly the issue that I feel comes with listing this. If this makes any sense, articles on the deaths of pop culture figures, in the context that is just their death + public shock and reactions, and not an event with global repercussions like the Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand4, which started World War I3, do not feel like traditional encyclopedic topics. It's similar to why we don't list specific television episodes as vital, even if you can definitely think of some like Ozymandias (Breaking Bad) that are debatably more important than entire TV shows, including some that we list or have listed in the past. Furthermore, people still discuss the death of Franz Ferdinand. I doubt that the death of Michael Jackson specifically is actively discussed independently of M.J. himself these days. Also, in general I just don't like the idea of listing the death of a pop culture figure as vital, and if articles like that are already listed that I'm unaware of, there's a good chance they should be reconsidered. λNegativeMP119:12, 15 February 2025 (UTC)
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Discuss
Off topic but...I was thinking about articles about "death of" and similar in general. Level 3 people, like Lincoln and Caesar have their deaths/assassinations at level 5. Franz Ferdinand is level 5 but his assassination is at level 4, due to triggering WW1. Other level 3 people have a death article but they're not listed anywhere in VA like Alexander the Great, Cleopatra and Hitler. There are also lev 4 and 5 people who's death was a significant media event, like Lennon and Diana which we don't list, then ones which we do like JFK. Other Level 3 people like Gengis Khan, their death was probably significant to history but their death does not even exist as an article. Just thinking out loud, I am wondering if Franz Ferdinand assassination is one level more important than himself and his assassin, Gavrilo Princip, but... we list Mark David Chapman the guy who killed Lennon. The only notable thing he did was to murder Lennon, would the Murder of John Lennon not be notable than the murderer, or should the murderer be removed? or am I wrong?? Carlwev 11:25, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
I think you are correct that a) political deaths/assassinations are more notable than celebrity deaths/assassinations, and b) Chapman should be removed pbp21:03, 17 February 2025 (UTC)
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Hi everyone, so the plan to trim particularly list-y articles from Countries & Regions is going well. I think the section should already be under 1,300 now (Cewbot will update totals tonight), and I'll probably be trimming more in a last pass.
Part of the proposal though was an understanding that we would shave the quota for that section to free up space elsewhere. We don't need to decide where now; we can just add it to the unallocated pile. I'm hoping this will be pretty uncontroversial, especially since we struggled to fill this category anyways. By comparison, most of the Society categories could probably use more slack.
For anyone that may be reluctant, I'd also point out this definitely isn't permanent. If the other sections are able to stabilize, and we do decide more country subdivisions really are vital, we can pull back in some slots and expand the category again.
Per nom. It is a difficult section to populate and make decisions, so it's quite difficult to tell where the quota should be, but I think this makes sense for now. J947 ‡ edits22:39, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
While I understand where this is coming from, support trimming regions, and know we need quota for other sections, I struggle to support quota shifts coming from sections outside of biographies until that section is brought under control. Won't outright oppose, but think that quota could be used within the history/geography category for non-regional topics before being sent to a section like society, which could likely stand to be trimmed. Math, health, and technology are all very lean comparatively. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 21:13, 17 February 2025 (UTC)
Discuss
I finished my last pass on removing the list-ish subdivision articles from the category, using U.S. State as a benchmark. The results definitely won't be perfect or balanced globally, but things were even more scatter-shot than I expected, leading to even bigger cuts. After Cewbot updated things, it looks like the category is now at 1,264 articles, significantly below even 1,300.
I have some observations from skimming the list too:
We can probably list transnational regions pretty exhaustively, even if they're often fuzzy and overlapping
They're large enough that there aren't a ton, plus balance issues are pretty intuitive to spot
For the "<subdivision> of <country>" articles I just trimmed, we probably can fit all 1st-level ones
Since I doubt there's much appetite to cut U.S. State, that means we arguably should for balance in the long-run
For specific subdivisions, even 1st-level, I don't see any way to fit them all in for every country
I doubt anyone wants to cut them entirely though so we probably need benchmarks for inclusion
I don't think we want to worry about any of these things right now. Anyone that likes to focus on this list though may just want to check these points and keep them in mind. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:29, 18 February 2025 (UTC)
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While going through the VA database to remove any duplicated articles, I noticed that Enugu State5 and Sokoto State5 were duplicated under Nigerian counties and Nigerian cities. I believe that the cities were meant to be listed under the Nigerian cities page, especially since just linking Enugu and Sokoto redirect to the state pages. Both cities are also quite populated, with Enugu being one of the 10 largest in Nigeria.
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The article states that it is one of the most important political speeches in American history. I would rather go for something with more global influence and impact. Makkool (talk) 11:14, 11 March 2025 (UTC)
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Added in earlier, but it is a significant event in which hundreds of Indians were killed by British Indian soldiers to crush the pro-independence movements, leading to massive backlash that fueled Indian resentment towards the United Kingdom and may have been a factor leading to eventual Indian independence. PrimalMustelid (talk) 23:10, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
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This historic event came to mind after reading several other disaster proposals. This event was part of the War of 18124 when the British took and burned Washington D.C.. Related to the Kamikaze and Spanish Armada link in terms of weather, per the articles lede "Less than four days after the attack began, a heavy thunderstorm, possibly a hurricane and a tornado, extinguished the fires and caused further destruction."
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The North Yemen civil war has more language links and is more impactful as it led to the abolition of the monarchy and the country becoming a republic. It is also likely the deadliest civil war in the last 100 years that is not already listed as vital on Wikipedia with a death toll of 100,000–200,000. Per the article, it is also described as Egypt's Vietnam war. Yemeni unification did not last very long as Yemen has been de-facto divided since the Yemeni civil war (2014–present).
Strong support add, oppose removal. The civil war is definitely a huge event, but History has the cushion, and we arguably don't include enough diplomatic events, especially one's that form states like this. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 16:42, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
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This conspiracy theory is bullshit and repulsive, but influential enough to be listed at VA5 pbp17:48, 8 February 2025 (UTC)
Oppose here, neutral if we can fit it under Culture somewhere. The idea has real effects, but since (I hope we'll all agree) it's a mythical meme, I don't really think History is the right place for it. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 19:13, 8 February 2025 (UTC)
Oh, interesting, and it's there on Lv4 so we probably can't just move it boldly yet. Personally, I would think the general Conspiracy theory article makes way more sense with something like Sociology. Tell you what, I'll change my vote to neutral here, but keep a note we should probably move this with the general article. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 12:48, 9 February 2025 (UTC)
Since we already apparently list the parent Conspiracy theory4 article in History for now, I won't get in the way of adding it. I've proposed moving that to Sociology on Lv4 though so my understanding is we'd move this one too, either before or after it passes. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:10, 9 February 2025 (UTC)
Discussion
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I belatedly added Trident after first placing it in Technology for its military and farming/hunting history. However, its symbolism for deities, superheros, corporations, athletic institutions, and military forces is probably even more vital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:35, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
Weak support, we have the room for now. Long run, if we list them primarily as symbols, I wonder if they belong somewhere with Culture. But let's not worry about that just yet. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
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Operation paperclip was a program at the end of WWII where the United States brought NAZI scientists to the United States. Wernher von Braun4 was one individual brought to the U.S. through this program. Check the "Advancements in aeronautics" of the article if you need to see why this was vital to the history of the technology.
Sure, after some thought, we're still filling in the section. We can worry about over-representation of WWII later. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:47, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
I don't really think of this as WWII, this is a major part of the history of the United States space program. It is a Swords to ploughshares situation, coming out of the ashes of WWII, but I think of it more as part of the post war period then the war itself. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 03:04, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
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AKA the White Mountains, not a pass, but the specific mountain subrange the Khyber Pass traverses. We actually don't list it though so may as well toss it out there now.
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Technically a region of Afghanistan, and apparently never a primary link in the Silk Road3, but this contains the only feasible direct link between modern-day Afghanistan and China.
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Leaving Central Asia and moving to Central Europe, this may not have been as notable until more recently, but it has historical importance particularly related to Cold War military planning.
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Another land pass between modern-day Poland and Lithuania, relevant to contemporary geopolitics. Also historically a common route for military maneuvers in the area.
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Suburb of Tokyo3 well-integrated with the capital via public transport.
Besides pbp's point about population, I'll have to think a bit more about how these relate to other suburbs, or non-suburbs in general. I'm guessing we'll want to trim the Cities section more; that probably means being a little systematic though. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 19:28, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
Same question as Espoo near by.... At level 4 we list both Rotterdam and The Hague which are kind of in the same metro area, and Google says they are around 24 km apart, closer than this to Tokyo, which Google says they are 36 km apart. We also list London at level 3, then City of London and City of Westminster at level 5. If we are to discus whether these suburb/close-by-cities of other cities are vital or not, I think the discussion needs to be more thorough than "close to, or within, another city" as some almost identical cases exist and are not brought up and are almost given a free pass. Especially if we list all of New York Boroughs... Also we list Wall Street at level 5 which is about an individual street as well as New York Stock Exchange, which is about the financial topics at level 4, Central Park at level 4 and Manhattan at 5. Carlwev 19:21, 30 January 2025 (UTC)
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Coming up to ten years since this began. According to the article around 40% of the country is controlled by Jihadist forces leading to the displacement of over 2 million people and the deaths of at least 10,000 civilians and combatants. See also Template:Campaignbox Jihadist insurgency in Burkina Faso for the long list of related articles.
r/historymemes has a "20 year rule" for what is allowed. Perhaps some similar guideline could be suggested to avoid recency debates. GeogSage (⚔Chat?⚔) 17:57, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
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Open proposals at top
Hi everyone, we're doing a really good job of participating and moving things along on this page. Up at the top though, we still have several open proposals just shy of a clear margin. Whether you're swinging by regularly or once in a while, please consider voting if you aren't completely ambivalent. It's not just about keeping things flowing either, but also a matter of fairness to your fellow participants. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:06, 31 January 2025 (UTC)
I've bumped this notice to the bottom just to tap the sign once more. I think this section is at a manageable pace with new proposals, but there are still many near the top waiting on a 4th or 5th vote to decide things. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:01, 19 February 2025 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/History and geography/Archive 8
5. I don't know how much space there is for these kind of topics though. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
5
