Talk:Botetourt Medal

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 12:40, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

( Comment or view )

( Article history links:

• Botetourt Medal
• Lord Botetourt (statues)

)

Obverse of the Botetourt Medal

• ... that both a statue of Lord Botetourt - and a medal (pictured) named for him - have been the subject of replicas made for the College of William & Mary?

• Source: West, Benjamin (June 11, 2019). "This long-dead historical figure is still very much alive. Here's how".; Johnson, D. Wayne (2016). "Replica". In Burdette, Roger W. (ed.). An Encyclopedia of Coin and Medal Technology: For Artists, Makers, Collectors and Curators – via Newman Numismatic Portal at Washington University in St. Louis.

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Socialite Rank (a combo hook)
• Comment: About four hours late on nominating Lord Botetourt (statues), so apologies there.

Created by Pbritti (talk). Number of QPQs required: 2. Nominator has 69 past nominations.

Pbritti (talk) 00:41, 16 February 2025 (UTC).

• The first article was moved to mainspace on 8 Feb, the second on 11 Feb, which is new enough for me. Both articles long enough and well-sourced. No copyvio issues. Image is legible at low res, and free (mere reproduction of a two-dimensional, public domain medal). Hook interesting, in the article, and cited, and the citations check out. Good to go. Tenpop421 (talk) 00:25, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

GA review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Botetourt Medal/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Pbritti (talk · contribs) 05:31, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

Reviewer: Kimikel (talk · contribs) 22:16, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Hello, I will be conducting this review as part of the May 2025 GA review drive. I will leave my comments within a few days. Kimikel (talk) 22:16, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

• @Pbritti: This is an excellent article. I've left my comments below; they're mostly minor things. Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns regarding my suggestions. Thank you! Kimikel (talk) 13:57, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
  • @Kimikel: Thanks for such a prompt review! I'm off-project for most of today but I'll address all the concerns raised below sometime this weekend. If you spot any others, I'd be glad to fix those, too! Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:10, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
    • @Pbritti: Thank you for the response. I've looked over the article again and found nothing preventing it from being a GA, so I'm closing this review. Thank you and congratulations! Kimikel (talk) 21:37, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Well-written

Lead

• Consider adding a pronunciation guide for Botetourt at the beginning.
  •  Done.

Design

• The medals are circular and measure 43 millimetres (1.7 in) in diameter and 0.1 inches (0.25 cm) thick.> It's odd that it switches from using metric to imperial as the primary measurement; I would pick one or the other (ie 1.7 inches (4.3 cm) in diameter and 0.1 inches (0.25 cm) thick.)
  • The article presently renders them in the form saw in the sources. I presume consolidating on Imperial is acceptable, but would prefer your input.
• castaing machine> Castaing should be capitalized
  •  Done.
• Numismatist Raymond H. Williamson> The numismatist Raymond H. Williamson (false title)
  •  Done.

History

• These medals were intended to incentive scholarship> incentivize scholarship

Surviving original materials

• Lewis Pingo – Thomas Pingo's son – > Lewis Pingo, Thomas Pingo's son,
• "McCartney" is partially conjecural > conjectural
  •  Done.

Verifiable

Spot check

1. 32: Splitting hairs, but as far as I see, it doesn't specifically say he was named for Lord Botetourt, so I would just stick with "a descendant of the medal's original sponsor"

• • Good catch! I have added a citation to a source that does verify that he was indeed named for the governor.

1. 19: Verified
2. 26: Verfied, but author should be listed as Jim Ducibella, not just Ducibella

• •  Done.

1. 14: Verified
2. 39: Verified

Illustrated

• It looks like there's an error on Wikimedia for the PD tag on BishopJamesMadison.jpg.
  •  Done.

Broad

• The classical learning award's conditions were similarly challenging. > do we know what they were
  • I'm looking into consulting some primary sources/18th-century newspaper articles to find this, but my understanding is that the specifics are not present in any RSs. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:23, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Neutral

• Good

Stable

• Good

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Peer review

Botetourt Medal

I'm seeking a peer review of Botetourt Medal in preparation to nominate this article as an FAC. Please add comments with that in mind (as well as any other thoughts you may have)! Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:37, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

FAC PR sidebar

I have added this article to the FAC peer review sidebar. Please consider reviewing articles listed there, and please remove this entry when this PR is closed. Thanks! Z1720 (talk) 14:55, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Comments

@Pbritti: Here'll be some of my comments. Arconning (talk) 16:35, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

• File:Norborne Berkeley Baron de Botetourt (cropped).jpeg - Public Domain, source link needs fixing. + a reason why it's PD in the USA
• File:BishopJamesMadison.jpg - Public Domain, source link needs fixing.
• "had observed weights of 43.0 grams and 41.96 grams.", conversion for readers that use the other system.
• I mean I believe it should be British pounds in "less than £100", could it be specified for readers?
• "His medals were publicly announced in the Virginia Gazette", this could be wikilinked to the history section of The Virginia Gazette
  • @Arconning: I think I've addressed each issue! ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:55, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree. Coins and medals are not two dimensional objects and you need both the copyright and the image to be PD or properly licensed. Fear not. If these images will suit your needs, I have permission from Heritage Auctions to upload a limited number of images, and I can certainly do these for you if you like.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:40, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

@Wehwalt: I'll ping you regarding the images of the bronze medal should that be needed! Do you mind linking a page (WikiMedia or otherwise) that touches on this? I was informed verbally by someone I trusted on the matter that a straight-on image of an engraved object did not meet the originality standards, but I trust your judgement more. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:50, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

@Wehwalt: Ah, this seems to be my answer. If you don't mind assisting with the photos of the copper medals, that would be very kind and appreciated. I'll look into contacting the organizations that possess the gold medals for permissions to use their photos or to take a photo myself. All the artifacts are in Virginia libraries/museums, and I can maybe convince W&M to let me photograph one of the reproduction medals as a fair-use image. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:56, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Swapped. If you take it yourself (not as easy as it looks, I used to have to do that and it's hard to photograph a coin right), you can just release it under a Creative Commons license and that would do it. Or maybe the museum is willing to release it with a Creative Commons license, that would fix it. I'll try to get in a review as time permits. Wehwalt (talk) 17:12, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Note that the Heritage Auctions page contains some info about the medal that you may find useful. They're pretty knowledgeable. And also note that you are going to run into similar copyright problems for the images of medals and dies that you have taken from books that remain in copyright. If the image is from a book that is no longer in copyright (pre-1930, or published without a copyright notice before 1978) then that wouldn't be a problem. Like the 1976 book I see. Is there a copyright page there? Wehwalt (talk) 17:14, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

• Consider using this source (page 234). Betts is the classic source on colonial medals.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:25, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

• I reviewed that source. Unfortunately, it does not provide any novel content and reflects a now-disproved notion that each medal was engraved rather than struck. I might link it as an external link, though.

• "Also in capitals is "T. Pingo F." ("Thomas Pingo made it") on the bust's truncation.[3][note 3]" Presumably F. is Facit?

• Presumably, but the sources on the matter do not address Facit. Since it is implied, I'm inclined to BLUESKY it, but I don't know if that's necessary.

• You are inconsistent about the name of the reviver of the medals, "Norborne Berkely" or Berkeley.

• Resolved, thank you!

• This suggests that the Mace of the college bears the image of the Botetourt Medal. This is confirmed by this and may be worthy of inclusion.

• That is a worthy detail. I'll add it.

• "All of the medals since the award was revived have the recipients' names and the company's logo on the edges." This is a 1983 source and MAC are out of business since 2018. Who's making them?

• My understanding is that MAC produced a substantial quantity that are still being used at present. Photographs of the replicas are essentially nonexistent.

• "The reissue has been presented as a definitional example of replicas within numismatics.[15]" What does this mean?

• The medal is presented as an example of what a numismatic replica is when it was defined in a dictionary of encyclopedic terms. Since reproduction, reissue, and replica have all been used to describe the new medals, I wanted to provide a more definitive term and indicate that the replicas were noted in the numismatic community.

That's it for now. Ping me before you offer it at FAC and I'll take another look.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:28, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

One more thing, the article format seems a bit repetitive. Consider having the background and awarding of the initial medals before discussing the design, broadly adapting the format at Waterloo Medal (Pistrucci), probably the most similar FA I can think of.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:44, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

One other thing more, if you plan to use the Heritage Auctions page as a source, to save you the trouble of getting an account to be able to find the price realized, it was $8,812.50.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:48, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

@Wehwalt: Thank you immensely for your assistance on this article and PR. I'll get back to you on Sunday once I'm in front of my books and will address some of the issues above. I'm also contacting the relevant institutions to inquire regarding image licensing or permission to visit their special collections for photographs. If you think of anything else in the interim, I'm all ears! Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:24, 4 July 2025 (UTC)

No hurry. Since I have some experience with FAC and with numismatic articles, I'm happy to let you know in advance the issues you might face. To register permission to use someone else's images, follow the procedure here. Wehwalt (talk) 16:30, 4 July 2025 (UTC)

@Wehwalt: Some good developments to report regarding the images. Colonial Williamsburg has agreed to provide permission to use their in-house images of their medal, but I will have to see if they are of sufficient quality to make it worthwhile. Those permission appear to be restrictive and would probably restrict them to being uploaded directly to English Wikipedia. More excitingly, my alma mater's special collections team has been exceedingly courteous in offering me the opportunity to photograph images of their original dies, medals, and the mace. Between these and the images you kindly secured, I think we will be able to adequately illustrate this article for FAC purposes. Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:43, 9 July 2025 (UTC)

OK. Keep me posted. If I can assist in any way with the image process, let me know. Wehwalt (talk) 16:23, 9 July 2025 (UTC)