Jump to content

Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2025 May 21

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unused maintenance templates. Seems Template:Monthly clean-up category/Messages/Type/Use mdy dates is the one used. Gonnym (talk) 11:25, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever happens to this one should be paralleled in Template:Dmy category I presume. I don't really get why that one is still used but this one no longer is, but I'm not going to dive into the module rabbithole to see when, how, and why this was changed. I don't believe that Template:Monthly clean-up category/Messages/Type/Use mdy dates has anything to do with this though, that is just a text message, not the complete template with a counter and so on included. Fram (talk) 11:45, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I see: someone updated all the mdy categories earlier this year[1], but not the dmy categories. So, I guess that these should be made parallel again, either by reverting the mdy cats or by changing the dmy cats. The fate of this template depends on what gets chosen. Fram (talk) 11:49, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Seems User:AnomieBOT creates new categories with {{Monthly clean-up category}} (see Category:Use dmy dates from July 2017), so the rest of the categories should be switched as well. Gonnym (talk) 15:54, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Which way do we want to standardize this? In favor of {{Monthly clean-up category}} (even though these aren't really cleanup categories in the standard sense), or in favor of separate templares?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, * Pppery * it has begun... 14:53, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, plicit 23:49, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
To answer Pppery's question, I personally don't mind either way, however if the monthly template isn't used, then AnomieBOT needs to be updated to create new ones with this template (not sure complexity or even if they want to edit their bot code). If this does get deleted, then I'll nominate the Dmy version so both will be handled the same. Gonnym (talk) 08:44, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Courtesy ping Anomie since changes to their bot are being discussed. * Pppery * it has begun... 23:30, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any reason for this to be used over {{Monthly clean-up category}}. It seems this, Template:Dmy category, and Template:English variant category only exist because someone at one point decided that these weren't "clean up" categories and started swapping the templates, but then gave up changing them behind AnomieBOT after a few years. Anomie 01:09, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

NFL Team Years

[edit]

The reasoning for the previous TFD was flawed and is not applicable. That said, these templates actually do not serve a useful purpose, which is reflected in their almost non-existent utilization. Of all the templates listed, only {{Steelers season}} is widely used (216 articles). Seven other templates have 3 or less uses in article space (Seahawks, 49ers, Vikings, San Diego, Colts, Lions, and Cardinals). Second, the templates are ostensibly used to shorten a string of text, but in reality it barely does this. As an example, the string {{PackersSeason|2025}} creates the code [[2025 Green Bay Packers season|GB]], but this is only a different between 22 characters and 36 characters! Thus, we have to decide whether 14 characters is worth additional template calls on a page. And let's say this template is used for its intended purpose, as an example, in Brett Favre, we are talking maybe about 300 extra characters, but 20+ template calls. Lastly, I will note that some of these templates don't act in the same manner. As an example, our Steelers example, produces the specific year for the team's season, similar to what {{nfly}} does, whereas the other templates create a season link but show the team's abbreviation instead of year (i.e. per the documentation, to be used in stat tables). So we have barely used, confusing, and minimally helpful templates here. As such, I recommend deleting and replacing with the relevant text string. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 21:13, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted all. Most if not all of the above are unused and have been unused for years. I've been hesitant to nominate them for obvious reasons but have kept on eye on them. Additionally, a general template does already exist (and has been for 7 years): {{NFL team season}}, so nothing is lost. Gonnym (talk) 08:46, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A recent discussion reached a consensus that U.S. and Canada soccer club seasons should be kept in seperate navboxes according to their leagues. What then are we to make of the "Club seasons" section of this navbox and its predecessors? Not only does it clutter the navbox, there already exists {{2025 MLS season by team}}, {{2025 MLS Next Pro season by team}}, {{2025 USL Championship season}}, and {{2025 NWSL season by team}}. I feel we should either split the "Club seasons" section of this navbox and merge it into these individual navboxes, or merge the individual navboxes into the section here.

Pinging Brindille1, GiantSnowman, PeeJay, and Vestrian24Bio as participants in the aforementioned discussion, and 2pou, Blaixx, EvansHallBear, GrouchoPython, Hey man im josh, Rylesbourne, and Tomrtn as major contributors to some of the five navboxes involved. WikiProject Football, its United States and Canada task force, and WikiProject Sports have been notified of this discussion, and has been listed in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. — AFC Vixen 🦊 18:36, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. Follow-up to:

NLeeuw (talk) 18:08, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. Follow-up to:

NLeeuw (talk) 18:00, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. Follow-up to:

NLeeuw (talk) 17:59, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. Follow-up to:

NLeeuw (talk) 17:59, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, these all should not be being deleted as there is not an effective alternative for navigation CR055H41RZ (talk) 16:50, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. Follow-up to:

NLeeuw (talk) 17:58, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. Follow-up to:

NLeeuw (talk) 17:58, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. Follow-up to:

NLeeuw (talk) 17:56, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per @RobertJohnson35's view Genabab (talk) 23:34, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Baal Nautes (talk) 00:25, 28 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. There is also a lot of WP:OR/WP:SYNTH going on, such as framing Albigensian Crusade as a "Franco-Spanish war" even though "Spain" didn't exist yet. Follow-up to:

Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. Follow-up to:

NLeeuw (talk) 17:32, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Spanish–Ottoman wars is a template created by spliting Ottoman–Habsburg wars one in it's Mediterranean theater. Nor to mention that legally the Spanish-Ottoman war declared by Charles I at the start of XVI century never ended until a formal peace treaty was done in 1782 at the time of Charles IV of Spain. So all those conflicts are completely related as campaigns and theaters of a 3 century war Sr L (talk) 18:08, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously. The House of Habsburg and the Ottoman Empire were constantly, uninterruptedly, ongoing, continuously, unendingly, without break or pause, at war with each other 24/7 for 300 years. Peace treaty? What is that?[Joke]
Kidding aside, this campaignbox simply does not conform to MOS:CAMPAIGN. NLeeuw (talk) 18:13, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I find the split necessary. The conflict between Spain and the Ottomans stopped being part of the Ottoman-Habsburg wars when Spain ceased being ruled by the Habsburgs after the War of the Spanish Succession in 1714. Baal Nautes (talk) 15:59, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong. per Template:Infobox_military_conflict it states the Campaignboxes may be used more rarely among plural campaigns or wars CR055H41RZ (talk) 16:56, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There were only truces since the start of war durinng Empire of Charles V era, but never a formal peace treaty until Treaty of Karlowitz for Austrian Habsburg and Treaty of Constantinople [es] for Hispanic Monarchy (under Bourbons at that time). And even then, there were a bit of successive conflicts until Napoleonic era. Sr L (talk) 06:05, 26 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Even if you were wrong, the template documentation admits multiple wars or campaigns in a single campaignbox, so there's no reason to delete it anyway. RobertJohnson35talk 12:48, 26 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting per MOS:CAMPAIGN—these conflicts do not constitute a "particular campaign, front, theater or war", but are unrelated to each other. Follow-up to:

NLeeuw (talk) 17:31, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The Franco-Russian Wars fullfy the same conditions like other templates concerning geopolitical rivalries between 2 militar powers (which constitutes a particular conflict), like Anglo-Spanish War or Anglo-French Wars Sr L (talk) 18:12, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SYNTH. NLeeuw (talk) 18:14, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as per @Sr L(talk). Leutha (talk) 18:59, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Links to two films; does not meet guidelines at MOS:FILM#Navigation. DoubleCross () 14:06, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, plicit 14:10, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more templates or modules. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was Delete; deleted by The Anome (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT 14:12, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Template is not used in any articles. TarnishedPathtalk 11:56, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template or module's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Very incomplete template, full of external links and questionable links. Not of any value at the moment. The Banner talk 11:04, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This table is not going to be accessible to anyone with its chaotic arrangement of cells. It's also composed of more red links than not. I couldn't even begin to suggest what an appropriate replacement might look like, so I'm suggesting full deletion. Izno (talk) 04:36, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No transclusions, documentation, or incoming links. Created in 2021. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:49, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Propose merging Template:Wikicite with Template:SfnRef inline.
{{SfnRef inline}} and {{wikicite}} both allow the shortened footnotes created by Module:Footnotes to link to a full citation that is either handwritten or transcluding a template that does not yet create an anchor for short citations.

Wikicite can:

  1. Be placed after the full citation.
  2. Wrap around the full citation which creates popup tooltips on mouseover and highlights the full citation when clicked, similar to standard references.

SfnRef inline can:

  1. Be placed after the full citation.

I am proposing a merge rather than a redirect because SfnRef inline also:

  • Has the more clear name and should likely be the post-merge title. Wikicite's partner template {{wikiref}}, was deleted 15 years ago because it was never widely used.
  • Accepts the same numerical parameters as Module:Footnotes does in more common templates like {{sfn}}, {{harv}}, {{sfnp}}, and so on.
  • Has more clear documentation.

Both templates have the same code in their sandbox and testcases. If you have a "harv" errors script installed, you should be able to quickly see the differences in anchor creation on the testcases below. If you don't have any error script for shortened footnotes, you'll need to click the links in the "Short citations for testing examples below" to see the difference.

Regards, Rjjiii (talk) 13:40, 10 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • I don't think that placing either of these after the full citation can be correct. For accessibility reasons, if nothing else, the emitted anchor should really be before the citation; and that is what happens when {{wikicite}} uses its |reference= parameter to enclose the full citation. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:13, 10 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Redrose64, that's a good point, and one of many things to address in the documentation. It wouldn't affect how the transcluded template is written, though, would it? Rjjiii (talk) 00:49, 11 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regarding 2. Wrap around the full citation which creates popup tooltips on mouseover and highlights the full citation when clicked, similar to standard references., will this be lost with this merge? I'm rather a fan of this feature, so I wouldn't be thrilled to see it go. – Michael Aurel (talk) 01:17, 11 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Michael Aurel, it will not be lost; the feature would be added to {{SfnRef inline}}. Check out the sandbox examples at Template:Wikicite/testcases. The merge would result in both of the below options to wrap the full citation:
    • {{wikicite |ref={{sfnref|Buchanan|2023}} |reference=Buchanan, Abigail. (14 November 2023). "We are making bagpipes sexy again: Inside the late Queen's beloved Scottish music school". ''[[The Daily Telegraph]]'') }}
      
    • {{wikicite|Buchanan|2023 |reference=Buchanan, Abigail. (14 November 2023). "We are making bagpipes sexy again: Inside the late Queen's beloved Scottish music school". ''[[The Daily Telegraph]]'') }}
      
    Rjjiii (talk) 01:55, 11 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Great, thanks for the clarification. No issues in my book, then. – Michael Aurel (talk) 02:05, 11 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support merger, in every respect discussed above. This is a +5 Plan of Goodness.  — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  00:16, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I suggest to merge the other way: {{SfnRef inline}} -> {{Wikicite}} because a) the former has less than a dozen transclusions, the latter >2200; b) the name part "inline" doesn't describe how Wikicite is used, which is in the "Sources" section of articles, along with standard specific citation template, like {{Cite book}}, {{Cite journal}}. Checking 2 articles that use {{SfnRef inline}}, it's used there also in that section, not inline. The suggested new functionality of separating the citation anchor from the citation itself is a step backwards. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:04, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Michael Bednarek, thanks for the response. To better understand your positions, are you saying:
    1. That the merged template should be titled {{wikicite}} or something similar to {{Cite book}}? For transparency, there was another rarely used template called Template:Cite plain.
    2. That the merged template should continue to support wrapping the full citation, or that it should only support wrapping the full citation and existing transclusions of {{SfnRef inline}} should be converted to the {{wikicite|ref=}} format?
    Rjjiii (talk) 03:46, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    1.: Yes, it should be named {{wikicite}} because that's the overwhelmingly used name now.
    2.: Of course the merged template must continue to support wrapping the full citation. I'm indifferent (though disapproving) to the current possibility of {{SfnRef inline}} to stand alone. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:07, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 01:43, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

To summarize in hopes of getting more input:

Editors agree there should be one template.

Editors raise two points that need to be addressed in the documentation of the merged template but do not affect merging the templates themselves:

  1. Should a non-wrapping anchor always come before (not after) the citation for better accessibility?
  2. Should non-wrapping anchors be discouraged?

For context: The live {{wikicite}} template can make non-wrapping anchors (follow the link Template:Wikicite/testcases#CITEREFBuchanan2023c to test), but the documentation does not mention it. {{SfnRef inline}} only creates non-wrapping anchors.

And Michael Bednarek raises one point to resolve in the template itself. Should the merged template be at

  1. {{SfnRef inline}} or
  2. {{wikicite}}

Thanks all for participating, Rjjiii (talk) 22:52, 27 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There is no reason to deprecate a sidebar template. It either is useful and the deprecation template should be removed, or it should be replaced and the template deleted. Gonnym (talk) 22:20, 8 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: this template has been in use for twenty years, has been regularly maintained, and is, if I understand the statistics correctly, used in about ninety different articles. The "deprecation" message says that it should be replaced by one of two other templates—only one of which currently seems to exist. At the very least, this move seems premature. P Aculeius (talk) 12:30, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: It appears that this notice was placed after a discussion on the template's talk page, but the rest of the process was not carried out. Pinging @Ifly6, Biz, and T8612:, the participants in that discussion. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:38, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Is there some other way to say "don't use this template, use these other templates"? The deprecation convention I am used to is persist-indefinitely. The number of pages on which that sidebar was semi-mindlessly dumped is very long. There was general agreement that the combined approach had gradually accumulated into a cruft of barely organised links. As to the replacement templates, I created the republican one; I am not an expert on the imperial period and deferred to others for creation of that sidebar. Ifly6 (talk) 20:12, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, send it here. Never place a deprecation template randomly as it does nothing to solve the problem that you wanted to solve. Gonnym (talk) 20:05, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If this is a deletion discussion, as indicated on the template page itself, I would think a deletion would have to wait for the imperial era template to be created and rolled out. Ifly6 (talk) 20:14, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I did make a start on an empire template, but realised we need a decision on what year we cut it off, and apologies have not continued on it. The previous template used the fall of the 5th-century Western Empire, which is an inappropriate reflection of current scholarship. That said, more important is that the Republic and Empire are differentiated, so I will request that, at minimum, Ifly6's work on those pages remain until more work is done for an empire template. I can work on the template if people here can help with a decision on the end date (it's either the 5th, 8th or 15th centuries). Biz (talk) 21:14, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Withdrawn Deletion and Keep - Upon further thought it has some useful information. It is best kept. Reader of Information (talk) 15:50, 11 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: If this template is kept, I'll be removing the deprecation tag. It can't be both ways. Gonnym (talk) 20:06, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I recommend we keep the existing template for pages that use it (ie, Empire content) and the new Republic template can gradually replace pages that relate to that period. In effect, we will now have three templates and over time, the new empire template will come into being, replacing the Ancient Rome template. Biz (talk) 04:13, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 01:36, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]