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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 22 April 2025 [1].

Zeng Laishun

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Nominator(s): Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 07:44, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the first Chinese person to attend college in the United States, and later one of the leaders of the Chinese Educational Mission. He had one heck of a life, with highlights including attending the second inauguration of Ulysses S. Grant and taking a detour from his educational organizing in the US to investigate abuses of Chinese migrant workers in Cuba.

Zeng has been an understudied and little-known figure (especially in comparison to Yung Wing, who had the advantage of having written an autobiography); even the Chinese-language sources don't turn up much about him. However, work by Edward J. M. Rhoads has helped bring him more into the spotlight. As such, a lot of the citations are from Rhoads, but I have done the best I can to try to incorporate what I could from other scholars and sources. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 07:44, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

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Hi Generalissima, happy to do the image review. The article contains the following images:

All are in public domain because of their age. They are all relevant to the text and placed in appropriate locations. They all have captions. I suggest adding an alt-text to File:Zeng_Laisun_with_officials_1872.png. The other images have alt texts.

I have some concerns about File:Zeng Laishun, c. 1880s (cropped).jpg. Its source, https://www.kennethjhong.com/2022/01/ , says "The Smithsonian misidentifies this photo as “Portrait of Li Hung Chang, Viceroy of Chilhli in Costume with Fur Cost n.d.” Researchers have asserted that the photo is of Zeng Laisun and not the Viceroy. Moreover, the photo is signed “Tseng Laisun” (which is the way Zeng spelled his name in his later years). The Smithsonian has declined to correct its catalog". Is there academic consensus that this is indeed Zeng Laishun? An alternative would be to replace it with a cropped version of File:Zeng Laisun with officials 1872.png or File:Zeng_Laisun_and_Family_1872.png, showing only Zeng's head. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:37, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Phlsph7 Thank you! Added alt-text and swapped out the image, since I couldn't find a source the corroborated it. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 07:11, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The new image works well. One more quibble: The caption of File:Zeng Laisun with officials 1872.png says that the other two people are Chen Lanbin and Ye Yuanjun. The source is not 100% sure, asserting that "the central figure is almost certainly Chen Lanbin ... the figure on the left is probably Ye Yuanjun". A simple solution to be on the safe side would be to change the caption to "Zeng Laisun (right) in official uniform after his arrival in San Francisco, with two other officials". I guess that "almost certainly" is good enough for Chen Lanbin, so we could also consider "Zeng Laisun (right) in official uniform after his arrival in San Francisco, with Chen Lanbin (center) and another official". Phlsph7 (talk) 10:36, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Good point - rephrased the caption. Thank you very much! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 18:27, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Great, this takes care of the remaining concern. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:52, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith

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I can't commit to doing a full review, but the statement "He was the first Chinese person to attend college in the United States" caught my eye. This is the kind of statement which is virtually impossible to verify and thus should never be given in WP:WIKIVOICE. This kind of statement comes up frequently at WP:DYK, prompting me to write an essay about it. In short, it's impossible to enumerate all of the chinese people who have attended college in the US, and it is thus impossible to verify that he was the first. If we have a source which says he was, then it needs to be qualified as "according to ...", "believed to be ..." or something similar.

Yeah, that looks better, thanks. My apologies for getting so freaked out about this, but it's such a common issue at DYK I think I've developed a hyper-sensitivity to it. RoySmith (talk) 17:46, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to piggyback on RoySmith's section, but it is not clear to me from the lead why he is described as Chinese/a Chinese student. It seems he was a student in the United States before he ever went to China? What counts as a "foreign college"? CMD (talk) 08:37, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Chipmunkdavis: See my response to Pendright below - the sources unanimously describe Zeng as Chinese in this case. Nationality is a fickle and nebulous thing, especially under the imperial system, where the precise borders of state control and citizenship are blurry. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:37, 28 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Arconning - support

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Will put some comments, maybe some more soon...

  • I may be wrong here... wouldn't it be circa 1826 or 1827 for his birthdate?
    • I think 1827 is still circa 1826; I assume this comes from him being marked as a certain age on a certain date. - G
  • Not sure if this source is reliable but it mentions that Zeng was the first foreign student to study at Hamilton, would it be noteworthy to put in the article? It also somewhat pushes that he was indeed taught by Edward North, citing a book entitled "On the Hill: A Bicentennial History of Hamilton College".
    • This appears to be a student project, and I'm not sure if it's actually subject to college oversight, so I'm gonna lean on the side of nonreliable. It'd be different if it was the college itself making the claim. - G
  • Mentions of western powers should have "Western" capitalized.
    • Fixed. - G
  • xenophobic attitudes towards Chinese people in the United States, possibly a portion or the whole phrase to wikilink to Anti-Chinese sentiment in the United States.
  • @Arconning: Responded, if you still have anything else! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 21:44, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Generalissima Just a few more comments:
    • "Shanghai Red Cross", wouldn't it be more apt to wikilink the entire phrase while changing the word structure to "Shanghai International Red Cross Committee" as that was the previous name of the organization?
    • Good point, done. - G
    • Works for me, done. - G
    • - Done. - G
    Arconning (talk) 14:22, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Arconning: Ok, done! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:53, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Happy to support. :) Arconning (talk) 05:18, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

MSincccc - support

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Lead
  • In 1866, Zeng was hired by the imperial government as an English instructor at the newly-established Fuzhou Navy Yard School. Seeking to gain experience with western practices and institutions, the imperial government began the Chinese Educational Mission in 1871,... Why not link the article Government of the Qing dynasty in both instances where "imperial government" is mentioned, rather than linking once to the Qing dynasty and once to the government article?
    • Oops, good catch there; I should only link it once in the lede, but you're right that government of the Qing Dynasty is a bette rlink. - G
Education in the United States
Career
  • Why not move the following information to the Personal life section of the article (given that we have one)?
    • In August 1850, Zeng married Ruth Ati, a Java-born Christian teacher who had been previously educated in missionary schools. She was described by an 1850 report as of "Indo-Chinese" heritage. Their marriage was officiated by author and missionary W. A. P. Martin at Ningbo in eastern China.[11][12][13] Ruth returned with Zeng to Guangzhou, and the couple had two daughters within the following two years.
    • Zeng and Ruth joined the Union Church, a newly-established independent church in Shanghai. They donated $175 to missionary E. C. Bridgman's mission in Shanghai to establish a schoolhouse, where Ruth taught a girls' mission school.
MSincccc (talk) 08:59, 18 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good call - done. - G
Career
  • Zeng and Ruth joined the Union Church, a newly-established independent church in Shanghai.
You could link to the article Union Church (Shanghai) in this sentence.
I don't actually know if that's the same church. I think it might be a later church building that was built for the congregation originally at the one mentioned in the article. - G

MSincccc (talk) 09:07, 18 March 2025 (UTC)----[reply]

@MSincccc: Responded! Thank you as always. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 21:44, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@MSincccc: Just checking if you saw the changes. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 21:57, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Generalissima I have suggested a few more changes below. It is a well-written article, and I look forward to your thoughts. Thank you. MSincccc (talk) 04:02, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Chinese Educational Mission
Return to the United States
  • ..., and the first party of 30 students – which included his son Spencer. We already know from a previous sentence in the same section that Spencer was his son.
    • Fixed. - G
  • his eldest sons Spencer and Elijah stayed behind to continue their studies at Yale University. Same as the previous point.
    • Fixed. - G
  • The "m" for "mayor" here should be in lowercase.
  • They reached Springfield, Massachusetts, eight days laterr... Typo.
    • Fixed. -G
  • Alongside his family in March 1873, Zeng attended the second inauguration of Ulysses S. Grant in Washington, D.C., ... "Washington D.C." could be delinked here as per MOS:OL.
    • Fixed. -G

A few more suggestions above. Apologies for the delay, Generalissima. Regards. MSincccc (talk) MSincccc (talk) 04:08, 27 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Pendright

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Lead'

  • He was among the first Chinese students to study at an overseas college.[1]
See the following section

Education in the United States

  • According to historian Edward J. M. Rhoads, Zeng was the first Chinese person to attend college in the United States,[8][b] and possibly the first at any overseas college.
  • By definition, the term Chinese person generally refers to a person from China who is a citizen or resident of China. Wasn't Zeng a person of Chinese-Malay ancestry who had ancestry originating from China but lived elsewhere?
  • This gets into the thorny ethnicity, ethnic heritage, and nationality distinction, especially in a context where you don't really have the modern context of nationalism driving people's self-identity (at least in China during this period). Sources unanimously describe him as Chinese, though, and so I think we should follow them in describing his nationality:
<> I yield - Pendright (talk) 06:24, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • possibly Can suggest uncertainty, skepticism, and could trigger doubt about the validity of what is being said.
  • Rhoads specifically couches the more broader "first to attend an overseas college" claim; there appears to be no known counterexamples, but I think the implication is that it's plausible there could have been an earlier instance which has just not been recorded. at the very least, he has a claim to the accolade given to Yung of being 'China’s first [college] student to study abroad - G
<>Okay, it's sourced - Pendright (talk) 06:24, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • overseas -> Needs context?
  • Rephrased to foreign. - G
  • Rephrased. - G
  • He instead traveled to China with Williams and Williams' wife, departing from New York City in late May 1848.[10]
  • instead is a word of transition -> suggest starting the sentence with it.

Transition (linguistics)

  • Done. - G
  • Could one Williams be substitu6ted?
I wanted to make it clear that this wasn't Zeng's wife but I guess that isn't really unclear if I just say "his". - G

Career

  • She was described by an 1850 report as of "Indo-Chinese" heritage.
Might be worthy of linking -> Indo-Chinese

Chinse Educational Mission

  • In addition to his knowledge of English, Zeng had become familiar with a range of Chinese dialects and languages across the coast of south China, and could translate for students with mutually unintelligible forms of Chinese;[20] the students were recruited mainly from Cantonese-speaking families, with a smaller contingent of Shanghainese speakers.[22]
This sentence contains over 50 words -> Suggest breaking it up.
  • Done. - G

Return to the United States

  • In August 1872, Zeng departed from Shanghai [for the United States] aboard the Pacific Mail steamer Costa Rica along with his family, Chen, and the first party of 30 students – which included his son Spencer.
[Add the above]
  • Is it still departing for if they're making a pit stop in Japan first and then transferring ships? - G
<>The United States was the final destination; visiting other ports enroute did not change this.
  • They arrived in San Francisco in late September and met with dignitaries including Mayor William Alvord.
Do we need a comma after dignitaries?
  • I think so, added. - G
  • After five days in the city, lodging at the Occidental Hotel, they departed east on the transcontinental railroad, reaching Springfield, Massachusetts, eight days later and reuniting with Yung.
reuniting describes the act of coming together,  and
reunited describes the state of being together again.
  • Fixed. - G
  • While Chen and Yung relocated to Hartford, Connecticut, after the students departed, Zeng decided to stay in Springfield for unclear reasons; the mission may have wanted a staff member in Springfield to greet later student cohorts.
Who gets credit for the last clause?
  • Rephrased. - G
  • Despite widespread xenophobic attitudes towards Chinese people in the United States, Zeng reported little racist harassment towards him and his family.
Could one towards be substituted?
  • Done. - G
  • He frequently visited North Adams, Massachusetts, with his sons, where he may have met with the community of Chinese workers at the Sampson Shoe Factory.
"may have" is used to make educated guesses or speculate about past events?
  • Yeah, it's unknown if he did for sure but I think it's good context that he was visiting an area that had a number of Chinese workers (ie, he wasn't completely alone in being a Chinese person in New England!) - G
<>In which case, does it need a source - Pendright (talk) 06:24, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Cuba

  • They faced extremely poor conditions which grew increasingly dire by the 1870s.[32]
  • Change which to that
  • Done. -G
  • Can you show some of these conditions?
  • Added some context. - G

Personal life

  • During the late 1860s, Zeng's eldest children, Annie and Lena, were able to spend a year studying in England thanks to a grant from Thomas Hanbury, his former employer.[19]
Do we need a punctuation mark after England?
Yes, added. - G

@Generalissima: This is it for now - Pendright (talk) 06:22, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Pendright: Thank you! Responded. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 22:22, 22 MaGeneralissimarch 2025 (UTC)

@Generalissima: I left a few responses to yours that I hope you will look at, none of which are contingent on my support. Zeng's story is interesting and well written. I'm happy to add my support. Pendright (talk) 06:24, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

IntentionallyDense - Source Review - pass

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I'll do this source review as it doesn't have one yet

  • Formatting is consistent
  • Sources look appropriately reliable for the topic
  • Ng 2014 is verified
  • Rhoads 2005 is verified
  • Rhoads 2011 is verified
  • Smith 1976 is verified

Pass for the source review. Great work! IntentionallyDense (Contribs) 04:54, 29 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

HF

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I'll review this. Hog Farm talk 02:38, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm surprised that this hasn't come up in the FAC - are there really no usable Chinese-language sources for this figure? I do see that there are several sources published in English by an academic publisher in Hong Kong, but this seems odd to only be using English-lanugage sources for a biography of a Chinese civil servant
    • Since his identity was unclear before Rhoad's study, I think he has been more overlooked in Chinese-language sources in favor of Yung. The only significant coverage seemed to be from a 2016 article titled 留美幼童家庭出身探析 (A brief study on the family backgrounds of Chinese students studying in the United States). This mostly restates stuff already covered by Rhoads, but does include that he was a Fifth-Rank Official during his service in the CEM, so I included that. - G
  • "After Zeng's departure, church records reported only five Chinese Christians in Singapore" - can we really say that this was after - the source just puts this count at some point in 1843, and Zeng was still residing in Singapore for the first quarter of 1843
    • Rephrased. - G
  • "Around April 1843, Zeng was sent to the United States with the Presbyterian missionary John Hunter Morrison, who was returning to America after work in northern India" - our article never exactly says in the article body why Zeng was sent to the US. Rhoads says this was "to further his education" (p. 24)
    • Added. - G
  • "Zeng transferred from Bloomfield to Hamilton College, a Presbyterian institution in Clinton, New York." - Rhoads includes a date for this, which I think it would be significant to include
    • Added. -G

through the first paragraph of career. The article writing and reviewing muse has pretty much completely left me for now; I may or may not come back to finish this review. Hog Farm talk 03:12, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • " it was less than half that of unmarried foreign missionaries." - are we sure that "less than half" is quite right? Rhoades p. 28 says his 1852 and 1853 annual salary was $250, while the unmarried foregin missionaries' salary was $500
    • Oops, you're correct - Fixed. - G
  • "(renamed Tianjing during the rebellion)" - I'm not finding this in the cited source
    • Removed this, as it's not all that important. - G

Up to the return to the US. Hog Farm talk 16:46, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Writing that he sensed American curiosity for the "very novelty of a Chinaman going about the country"" - I don't know that I would have truncated the quote where you did. Is the quote indicating the fact that a "Chinaman" going around a novelty, or was it the fact the he was "going about the country lecturing" the more unusual part that rose the curiousity?
    • The former; retruncated the quote. - G
  • " shortly after welcoming the third detachment of students" in article vs "shortly after he had welcomed the third detachment of students". I think this doesn't quite meet WP:LIMITED due to some of the nonstandard shared words, such as "detachment"
    • Reworded. - G
  • "to the United Kingdom aboard the SS Java. " - is there a specific reason why SS Java (1865) is both linked at the word Java, and then another piped link to the same article on "SS"?
    • Fixed the link. -G
  • "His wife and children sold their house in Springfield and set off back to China in September 1873," - source says September 1875
    • Fixed. - G
  • "In August 1856, Zeng was introduced to fellow convert Yung Wing, who had also attended college in the United States. Zeng briefly left China for Bangkok in 1857 for business purposes" - I'm a bit confused as to why this information is in the family section, especially given that it is elsewhere in the article
    • No idea how that ended up there - removed. - G

I think that's all from me. Hog Farm talk 19:38, 13 April 2025 (UTC) @Hog Farm: Thank you very much! Made fixes. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 20:30, 16 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Supporting Hog Farm talk 18:06, 17 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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