User talk:ModernDayTrilobite

RM closure at Guyana–Venezuela crisis (2023–present)

Kind regards. For starters, Happy New Year. I wanted to ask if you could reconsider your close at the 2023 Guayana Esequiba crisis article. From what I gather, WP:NPOV was one of the main reasons for deciding on the move; the nominator first argued this at Guyana–Venezuela territorial dispute, but this was something hotly debated in its move discussion, and I explained that it is rather a descriptive title in Spanish for The Guianas region and the Essequibo River. Additionally, with three editors against and three editors in favor (without including the nominator), I think it's too close of a margin to determine a consensus. Best wishes and thanks in advance. NoonIcarus (talk) 12:06, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for reaching out! WP:NPOV was one of the reasons behind the move, but the WP:COMMONNAME argument also played a major role in my decision. Editors made a compelling case that the term Guayana Esequiba was not widely used by English-language sources - on this point, I was particularly swayed by DankJae's Google News results and Unknown Temptation's spot-check of different outlets. Both of these arguments were raised by several participants in the RM, which suggested to me that they had a relatively wide degree of acceptance.

As for the margins: you're correct that the sides were roughly numerically even, but I think a closer look at the arguments indicates a stronger consensus to move the page than the numbers alone would suggest. Andrew Davidson's oppose was built on the assertion that "Essequibo dispute" is the English-language COMMONNAME, so while he was opposed to the proposed title of "Guyana–Venezuela crisis", he nevertheless appeared to support moving away from the Guayana Esequiba title. Meanwhile, GreatLeader1945's argument (that articles on historical crises are titled with a single region name, essentially an appeal to WP:CONSISTENT) didn't strike me as very strong; the examples she cited were all cases where there's an established historiographical COMMONNAME, whereas this article required us to pull together a descriptive title based on more scattered references, so I was skeptical of that argument's applicability. (If we're examining the numbers, I think it's also worth considering CMD's comment, which supported a move away from Guayana Esequiba but was neutral on preferred destination.) Let me know if this answers your questions, or if there's anything else I can clarify. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:53, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi! I was hoping to answer earlier, I'm so sorry about the delay. I understand better your rationale, thank you very much for the explanation. Although I still disagree with it, I think it's reasonable. At any rate, I was still thinking about start a move review and wanted to let you know beforehand, if that was alright. Many thanks in advance. --NoonIcarus (talk) 11:56, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for following up! Even if we still do disagree, I'm glad I was able to make my thought process clearer. No objections from my end if you'd like to file an MRV. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:47, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your understanding :) I wanted to let you know I have started the move review on Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 February. Best wishes! --NoonIcarus (talk) 02:00, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Upano Valley sites

I was reading about the sites yesterday and was curious where to link them or whether I should write up an article myself -- great work! Citing (talk) 17:21, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Faulty close

This is rather late out of the gate and far too late for a close review (which wouldn't amount to anything since the page didn't move anyway), but your close at Talk:Central Maine & Quebec Railway was badly faulty. It is not possible per WP:CONLEVEL policy for some essay from a wikiproject to contradict site-wide policies like WP:COMMONAME and site-wide guidelines like MOS:&. (In fact, the entire reason thr CONLEVEL policy was enacted was specifically to stop wikiprojects from trying to WP:POLICYFORK their own "anti-rules" against site-wide consensus to make magical exception for "their" pet topic. This is not some case of "maybe" or "kinda-sorta", it's exactly what that policy exists to prevent.) Any argument presented by commenters in the direction of obeying an essay over P&G requirements necessarily had to be given no weight because it was contrary to policy and practice. This is not BothSidesAreAlwaysEqualPedia. Non-admin closures are certainly permissible for many things, including RMs that do not require admin (or pagemover) permissions to effectuate, but they have to actually be compliant with policy. Specifically from WP:CLOSE: "closers are expected and required to exercise their judgment to ensure that any decision reached is within compliance of the spirit of Wikipedia policy ... The closer is there to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments [including] those that flatly contradict established policy .... The closer ... is expected to know policy sufficiently to know what arguments are to be excluded as irrelevant. ... As noted above, arguments that contradict policy are discounted."  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:13, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this to my attention - you're absolutely right. I don't recall what led me to weigh the wikiproject's style guidance so heavily, but looking back on it, I agree that it was a clear error on my part. I'm not sure if there's anything concrete I could do about it at this point (I'd feel a bit dodgy revising a close I made months ago), but I wanted to at least confirm that I've received your message and have no intention of making a similar mistake again. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 18:59, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Upano Valley sites

On 13 January 2024, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Upano Valley sites, which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Stephen 03:31, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

A brownie for you!

You got on the Upano Valley sites article super quickly, and I just want to thank you for it! GunnarBonk (talk) 03:27, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hi ModernDayTrilobite. Thank you for your work on The Great Bailout. Another editor, Tails Wx, has reviewed it as part of new pages patrol and left the following comment:

Great work on this article as whole; especially the critical reception section! This article definitely passes notability guidelines and is in great shape; therefore I've reviewed it. Happy editing! :)

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|Tails Wx}}. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

~ Tails Wx (🐾, me!) 01:58, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the review! I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the article. :) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 13:27, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Maps (Billy Woods and Kenny Segal album)

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Your GA nomination of Maps (Billy Woods and Kenny Segal album)

The article Maps (Billy Woods and Kenny Segal album) you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Maps (Billy Woods and Kenny Segal album) for comments about the article, and Talk:Maps (Billy Woods and Kenny Segal album)/GA1 for the nomination. Well done! If the article is eligible to appear in the "Did you know" section of the Main Page, you can nominate it within the next seven days. Message delivered by ChristieBot, on behalf of Joeyquism -- Joeyquism (talk) 20:05, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Madonna

Nice closing statement, quite detailed and explanatory. Thanks. Is it possible to add to it that the hatnote listing Mary, mother of Jesus is acceptable (it had support in the discussion and I, for one, did not weight in pro or con on the overall RM because the hatnote solved the concern)? Randy Kryn (talk) 14:29, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Sure thing! I can add a quick note to my closing statement to mention that. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:31, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! The hatnote probably gives the RM the result it sought without changing the current primary topic. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:48, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Lord Mountbatten#Requested move 20 June 2024

Hi. A bit late, I know, but it's been playing on my mind and I keep seeing it. This, I'm afraid, looks a bit like a supervote to me. While Byron and Tennyson (who are usually known as Byron and Tennyson anyway rather than their names and/or titles) are exceptions, as listed at WP:NCPEER, almost every other peer except those notable before they were ennobled is at the standard naming. There was clearly no consensus to move (one vote for Louis Mountbatten, six for Lord Mountbatten, five for retaining the status quo). The supporters certainly did not have stronger arguments. The new name is frankly a bit weird and populist and completely inconsistent with thousands of other articles. The later RM for Talk:Edwina Mountbatten, Countess Mountbatten of Burma#Requested move 28 June 2024 was overwhelmingly closed as not moved with two editors saying that had they spotted this RM they too would have opposed. I think this needs to be revisited. Thanks. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:47, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate the feedback, but I'm not certain I see the case for changing the existing close. It's certainly true that the "Lord Mountbatten" title is inconsistent with many of the other articles on British peers, but consistency is just one of the five article titling criteria; the titling criteria also include recognizability (discussed via WP:COMMONNAME in the RM) and concision, both of which were leveled in support of "Lord Mountbatten". I don't see the case for the consistency argument being so overwhelmingly dominant that it would outweigh both of the others; if I had allowed consistency to trump the other criteria so thoroughly, I feel that that would have been the true supervote.

As to the WP:NCPEER question, I found it pertinent that other examples of exceptions were raised during the discussion (Lord Kelvin, Lord Dunsany, etc). Byron and Tennyson are certainly the clearest-cut examples of COMMONNAME-driven exceptions to NCPEER's standard guidance, but the presence of other demonstrated examples made a plausible case that exceptions to NCPEER don't necessarily require the alternate title to predominate at the level that Byron's does. Looking back now, I think the phrasing of my original close overstates things by saying that the "Lord Mountbatten" title would be outright "preferable" under NCPEER's exception clauses, but I still do think a sufficient argument was raised to make the exception at least permissible. Ultimately, different commenters presented different interpretations of how WP:NCPEER should be applied to this subject, and I don't think either interpretation significantly outweighed the other. Consequently, the balancing of titling criteria continues to hold as the key policy question at play.

Finally, the comparable support numbers for Lord Mountbatten vs. the full title don't inherently prevent a finding of consensus. When the numerical margins are narrow on a consensus-building discussion, that's where the weighting of arguments becomes most relevant to determine whether a consensus has emerged. I would have no objection to a new RM on the topic (consensus can always change, after all), but I continue to believe that my close of the RM gave fair consideration to all the lines of argument presented in that discussion. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:54, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Ka (rapper)

On 19 October 2024, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Ka (rapper), which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Schwede66 03:08, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

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AIM-174 Closure

Respectfully, I would argue that WP:RMUM is being ignored. This was an undiscussed move and WP:RMUM is being ignored. A "no-consensus" would bring us back to the the original title, it would not keep the undiscussed title. Perhaps I could have made this clearer rather than attempting to re-litigate. However, x2 "no consensuses" does not endorse the undiscussed title. This is a concerning precedent, that undiscussed moves can be brute-forced into acceptance. Lastly, the onus should not be on me to defend the original title. The onus should be on the mover of the undiscussed title to defend their title. Simply because out of politeness, I did not revert the move during the MRV process as I was entitled to do, I was stuck with the burden of WP when the opposite should be true. I'm open to re-opening the RM in time, as you suggested, but if you have any other suggestions regarding moving forward, I would appreciate it. cheers MWFwiki (talk) 22:28, 2 December 2024 (UTC) MWFwiki (talk) 22:28, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

You're correct that a "no consensus" result on the RM would bring us back to the original title. However, a lack of consensus at a move review does not inherently imply a lack of consensus in the underlying RM. Rather, a no-consensus result at MRV implies that the original closure should stand, as there was not a consensus to overturn it. In this case, the original closure found there to be a consensus at the RM; thus, because the MRV did not find a consensus to overturn the close, the finding of consensus at the RM remains in force. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 23:43, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

The original closer agrees that there was a "clear lack of consensus." Additionally, as you said, "You're correct that a 'no consensus' result on the RM would bring us back to the original title," well, that's what happened; the move should have been reverted immediately upon the following: "The result of the move request was: no consensus. No consensus as responses have noted that the existence of future variants might change the situation and demand we re-visit this move at a later date." This original "no consensus" finding should have reverted us immediately, and I should not have been forced to go through this procedure. The onus should have immediately been shifted onto the mover. Perhaps I did not make this point clearly in my MRV argument, and if that is the casse, I apologize.MWFwiki (talk) 23:53, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

The original close isn't really relevant to this discussion – it was vacated by the original closer, so its findings are no longer in force. Even if the article title had been moved to AIM-174 at that time, it would have been moved back after the second closer found consensus for AIM-174B. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:03, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

…it was vacated because I requested the article to be reverted, and instead this process was started… so, again; the close improperly failed to revert the article. This needs to be addressed. There would not have been a "second closer" if this was handled per WP. MWFwiki (talk) 19:55, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what you're looking for from me at this point. The core of your concern seems to be that the first closer reopened the RM rather than simply moving the article. This is something they have the discretion to do; according to their own statement on the matter, they did this because they felt that the argument you made on their talk page introduced new facts that could affect the course of the RM discussion. Reopening the RM is a pretty common practice in such situations, but if you feel the closer acted inappropriately in doing so, the place to raise it is on their talk page, not mine—and they might even agree with you, given that they've expressed regret for reopening the discussion. (I too agree that things would have likely been simplest if the article was just moved then.)

Nevertheless, the RM was reopened, more discussion took place after the reopening, and it was closed again. This time around, the closure found consensus for AIM-174B, and this was the closure that was in force when the move review was opened. Accordingly, the participants at the move review all analyzed the closure that was currently in force, not the one that had been vacated weeks earlier. My only role in this whole situation was to evaluate the move review discussion and determine whether the participants there had reached a consensus on whether the extant RM closure was appropriate. I could potentially reopen the move review if you feel I erred in that evaluation, but if your goal is to change the underlying article title, I think it'd be easier (and likelier to succeed) if you just start a new RM discussion from scratch. The move review languished without comments or closure for so long because people were reluctant to untangle the complicated discussion history and figure out their opinions; by starting a separate RM, you can cut the argument loose from all its bureaucracy and make your case much more straightforwardly. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 23:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I mean, my point of contention is primarily what you pointed-out in the first half of your response. And again, it was only re-opened at MY "request." Everything that occurred post-initial RM should be invalidated. It's a clear breach and again, improperly shifted the onus onto me for months. I was not the person that executed an undiscussed move.

Regardless, I appreciate your time and input. I will raise this issue with the original closer. Otherwise, I'm going to take it further. Just to be clear (and I will make it clear), no, I'm not suggesting you necessarily erred and I am most definitely not implying any bad faith on your behalf (or anyone else's). Simply that all action post-original RM is invalid, as the article should have been reverted upon a no-consensus closure, and that the executor of the undiscussed move should have been the one moving for RM re-opening and/or a MRV. thanks again, sorry to take-up your time :)

MWFwiki (talk) 23:38, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

February music

story · music · places

Thank you for your support for the composer, with spring flowers and a songbird (in places)! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:17, 28 February 2025 (UTC)

Your close at xkcd

Thanks for providing such a thorough rationale for your close of Talk:xkcd § Requested move 29 March 2025, much appreciated. ("Dispreferred"? You should write press releases. ;) ) Paradoctor (talk) 17:11, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

I came here to say the same thing! I left that discussion after I felt I had contributed all I could to steer it and ensure participants understood the request and the tradeoffs. I was thrilled to see those tradeoffs accurately described in the closure notice. Thanks!

As for you, @Paradoctor - I know we've had some communications blunders, and I couldn't agree more that it was tiresome, but I hope you don't think ill of me. I think we can both learn from that interaction to define terms unambiguously when it becomes apparent that they are being interpreted differently by different people. I have a much greater appreciation for why every technical and legal document starts with Definitions! NeatNit (talk) 04:26, 10 April 2025 (UTC)

You stayed civil and responsive throughout, even when the temperatur was high, that's apt to make me think the opposite of "ill" of you.

And if our interaction gave you an appreciation for the ambiguities running through all natural-language communication, then it was effort well spent. No worries here. Paradoctor (talk) 05:21, 10 April 2025 (UTC)

Close at Talk:Galactic Center#Requested move 21 March 2025

You have given weight to the argument that this title falls to MOS:GEOCAPS. This is clearly a pettifogging argument that should have been WP:DISCARDED. A simplistic definition of a proper noun/name is that it is the name of a particular person, place or thing. A fuller definition, such as our own article or this definition, is that a proper noun is not descriptive. As stated in debate: While specificity of referent is a property of proper names, it is not a defining property, since specificity is also achieved by use of the definite article (the). The notion that GEOCAPS applies was only introduce after the penultimate VOTE!. It was debated and garnered no support. The ultimate VOTE! did not even tacitly acknowledge it. The assertion that GEOCAPS was tacitly acknowledged by other editors is not supported. Where they have referred to it as being a proper noun it is reasonably apparent they have done so from the view of the simplistic definition. However, WP relies on evidence of usage and not definition to determine what should be capped. To the statement: per MOS:GEOCAPS—the term "Galactic Center" refers to a specific location within the Milky Way and therefore meets the guideline's standard for capitalization, one needs to consider the spirit and intent of the guidance evidenced through the examples: These are treated like other proper names and take an initial capital letter on all major elements: Japan, Mount Everest, Gulf of Tonkin. Terms for types of places and features do not take capitals: the town hall; the capital city; an ocean; the savannah; karst topography. Japan, Everest and Tonkin are not descriptive but the capitalisation of mount and gulf are determined by usage. The town hall, the capital city and the savannah all have specific referents by virtue of the definite article - as does the galactic center per the lead of the article. GEOCAPS specifically links to Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Geographical items and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). There is nothing that would suggest that the pertinent guidance applies to a descriptive name (galactic center) except by virtue of usage in sources or that the guidance is intended to apply to the celestial domain, for which we have separate guidance. Where you state: ...arguing that the capitalization served to distinguish the Milky Way's galactic center from others, is capitalisation for distinction that explicitly falls to MOS:SIGNIFCAPS - a matter specifically raised in discussion and which we don't do. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:00, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

• Thank you for your very good close. The Galactic Center of the Milky Way is surely a geographical place (although I wouldn't want to visit). Walls of text are also a geographical place, but not subject to MOS:GEOCAPS, unlike the Galactic Center. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:17, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

As I see it, your comment has two main arguments in respect to my close, so I'll aim to address each one individually:

• First, re: whether it is appropriate to "read into" a !vote as being implicitly backed by a policy or guideline. I believe this is an appropriate and normal part of evaluating a discussion. The policies and guidelines give us direction as to which considerations to prioritize over others, but they are also intended as documentation of our values as an encyclopedia, and arguments that are aligned with those values should be considered even if the speaker doesn't fish out the exact policy name that described them. To use an example, someone who supports an RM because it "removes ambiguity" is clearly gesturing to WP:PRECISE, even if they don't realize it themselves. I'm not trying to say this scenario was as clear-cut as my example, but—when one person cites a policy or guideline in making their case ("GEOCAPS holds that we should capitalize this because...") and others make substantially the same argument but without alluding to the policy/guideline—I believe it to be reasonable to treat the same level of policy backing as applying to the other comments too. Of course, this approach hinges upon the actual policy interpretation being correct, which leads us to the other point...
• Re: the underlying interpretation of GEOCAPS. My responsibility as a closer is not to impose my own interpretation of any guideline but to reflect the interpretation that prevailed among the discussion participants; I shouldn't be overriding their interpretations unless they're obviously faulty, such as an argument citing WP:PRECISE to support clear overprecision. While there were certainly debates in the RM over how to interpret the guidelines that came into play (CELESTIALBODIES, GEOCAPS, SIGNIFCAPS), I don't feel any of the arguments from either side were clearly erroneous enough to merit outright discarding, so my role was to compare the interpretations on offer and gauge which interpretations were more strongly supported by the participants at large. (This does necessarily involve some consideration of numerical support, but I aim to make sure it's not a simple headcount by according additional weight to participants who are able to cogently lay out arguments for why their preferred interpretation should hold.)

In summary, when taking this approach, I feel that it was within reasonable discretion to weigh the arguments as I did. I think a no-consensus closure could also be a plausible interpretation of how the different arguments balanced against each other, and I would be willing to shift my close to "no consensus" if people feel that that more closely captures the relative weight of the different strands of argument, but I don't feel that the discussion could be reasonably described as having reached a consensus to move. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:59, 14 April 2025 (UTC)

And why aren't you teaching a class in how to write up a closing analysis? Your close seems correct, as the fact that the Galactic Center is a defined 'place' gives adequate weight to the use of MOS:GEOCAPS. Understanding that the counter arguments in favor of lowercasing the page to a name that would fit any galaxy's center if further Wikipedia pages become written - and given the technology and discoveries the James Webb Space Telescope has already made, new pages may occur - also brings a bit of commonsense into the mix. Thanks for the time you take in presenting thoughtful closes. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:25, 14 April 2025 (UTC)

Of the oppose comments, two out of four specifically make an a priori assertion that it is a proper name and a third, that it the formal name. None of these offer a substantive reason or evidence to support the assertion consistent with the prevailing P&G. They are a personal opinion falling to WP:DISCARD. In your example, using the word precision rather than a direct link (WP:PRECISE) is not a great leap. However, just invoking a particular piece of P&G does not give weight to a comment. Weight comes for establishing how a particular guideline applies to a particular case and that the conclusion is consistent with what the guideline actually says. Many that might cite precision to support their view actually argue for WP:OVERPRECISION - ie the P&G is being misconstrued. A closer is expected to discern that the P&G actually contradicts the argument being made - particularly if it is refuted in the debate as being incorrect. In this case though, it would be a substantial leap of faith to assume or imply that any of these comments (apart from Randy) is making even the vaguest allusion to GEOCAPS. All four comments assert capitalisation for distinction - which is flatly contradicted by MOS:SIGNIFCAPS as a rationale for capitalisation on WP. Randy's argument is essentially: Milky Way's [galactic centre], which, like Moon, is uppercased per MOS:GEOCAPS and naming convention. But each galaxy has a galactic center, so to differentiate the Milky Way's from the others (like the uppercased Moon) it is a proper name. Setting aside that the Moon is capitalise because of CELESTIALBODIES not GEOCAPS, the argument is that because it is a specific place, it is a proper name capitalised for distinction. However, as explained in the debate, specificity of referent is not a defining property of proper names and the examples at GEOCAPS bares this out - eg the savannah has a specific referent but is not capitalised. There is more to GEOCAPS (and what is a proper name) than just having a specific referent. The spirit and intent of the GEOCAPS is being misconstrued. Per WP:DISCARD: Closers are also required to exercise their judgment to ensure that any decision complies with the spirit of Wikipedia policy. As you say, it was convincingly shown that there isn't a usage-based case for uppercasing the term. The rationales given in the close appear to try way too hard to give weight to a pettifogging argument to overturn an argument for which the consensus is otherwise very clear. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:16, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

I had to look up the word "perttifogging". For readers in the same boat I was: "Pettifogging refers to giving too much attention to small details that are not important. It is an old-fashioned term and is often used disapprovingly to describe behavior that focuses on insignificant matters or is meanly petty." The 'small detail' here is that the Galactic Center, in astronomical and scientific circles, describes an exact place. Something you can put your finger on. Thus it fits MOS:GEOCAPS. Pettifogging, as defined, is not used correctly here. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:37, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

When all's said and done, I think we ultimately have incompatible interpretations of the underlying policies. I evidently read MOS:GEOCAPS as having a broader mandate than you do (and conversely, read MOS:SIGNIFCAPS as having a narrower one), and I think that dichotomy is what's at the root of our disagreement here. To my eye, the participants in the RM drew a clear semantic distinction between a general "galactic center" and the specific location "Galactic Center" within the Milky Way—and because of this semantic distinction, I don't believe that SIGNIFCAPS covers this situation in the way you've been describing. Meanwhile, I don't feel that the Galactic Center being an example of a galactic center necessarily precludes GEOCAPS from applying. I agree that it's necessary to ensure compliance with the spirit of policy, but doing so becomes a complex question when we're not in agreement about what the spirit of policy is in the first place.

Admittedly, my view has shifted slightly since my initial close, such that I think a no-consensus closure is probably more appropriate than a consensus-against-moving. While I still think that the GEOCAPS argument is sound, you've also highlighted a salient point that any questions around the policy basis for or against uppercasing the term are ultimately competing against a mixed usage pattern, with the result that I think the usage argument and the GEOCAPS argument counterweight each other enough to prevent either from becoming clearly dominant. The reason I'm just describing this shift and not yet editing my actual close is because I imagine, if you're still looking to overcome the underlying differences in our policy interpretations, an MRV will probably resolve our debate more decisively than further one-on-one conversation would. Changing my close shortly before a likely MRV seems like it would needlessly muddy the waters of that discussion, so I'm happy to hold off on making any edits to my close until I know whether you'd like to pursue the MRV route or not. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 04:47, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

If you are actually going to edit your close please consider adding more weight to the the Simbad uppercasing brought forward near the end of the discussion. Instead of a minor point, Wikipedia asks us to consult Simbad in situations like this. When the editor did so they arguably, and correctly, cemented uppercasing. In addition, and importantly, if you are accepting new arguments like those above, here's a new one which further places Galactic Center uppercasing in place: Wikipedia's naming conventions tell us to first and foremost consult IAU for anything related to galaxies. Here is what IAU has to say about it. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 05:11, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

You would give more weight to GEOCAPS but less weight to SIGNIFCAPS, which raises several questions.

1. If I said that I am going to: Japan; Mount Everest; the Gulf of Tonkin, Boston (which could be one of two dozen odd places); or, the town hall, the capital city or the savannah; in each case, I am referring to and going to a definite specific place. In the latter, this is because of the definite article (the). How is it (why does) the galactic centre (of the Milky Way) fall to the former examples and not the latter? What in GEOCAPS makes the distinction clear?
2. SIGNICAPS states: This includes over-capitalization for signification, i.e. to try to impress upon the reader the importance or specialness of something in a particular context. Those that oppose the move assert a need to capitalise to distinguish the Milky Way's galactic centre from that of other galaxies. Isn't this a case of impress[ing] upon the reader the importance or specialness of our galaxy's centre? Capitalising for distinction is inherently using caps to denote the specialness of the Milky Way's centre compared with the centre of other galaxies. How is it that, capitalisation for distinction does not fall to SIGNIFCAPS in a way that the assertion is flatly contradicted by the P&G and should be discarded?
3. Where an argument is made that caps are necessary for distinction, this has been effectively rebutted: While an argument is made that there is a distinction in capitalisation between the galactic centre of our galaxy and that for other galaxies, this is not bourn out by evidence, where the majority of references are to our galaxy [made in the context of a review of google scholar]; and, Per the actual evidence indicated, it is far from always capped in sources in the context you indicate and is not a proper name that we would cap per NCCAPS, where the indicated evidence would be google scholar. To paraphrase this a question: If capitalisation to distinguish the Milky Way's centre is necessary, why then is it that a good majority of authors writing about the Milky Way's centre see no need to capitalise galactic centre?

Cinderella157 (talk) 10:00, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

Re: GEOCAPS, I think the fundamental distinction is whether a given appellation is an established name of an entity or just a descriptor of it. Sometimes, the name of a location can overlap with one of its descriptors—London's Natural History Museum is just one of many natural history museums—in a way that blurs those lines. You ask what in GEOCAPS makes the distinction clear, but honestly, I don't think there is a clear distinction drawn for these particular cases; we have to evaluate the evidence on a case-by-case basis to gauge whether there's a proper noun or not.

Re: SIGNIFCAPS, I disagree that capitalizing for distinction is attempting to indicate the importance or specialness of what's being distinguished—it's simply indicating that the term covers a meaning distinct from that of its lowercase version. The example given in SIGNIFCAPS is of a capitalized "Scientific Consensus", where the caps are solely being used to identify the term as a significant piece of terminology within its passage. In this example, a Scientific Consensus is not identified as being anything different from a lowercased scientific consensus, and so the caps are purely for signification. By contrast, supporters of the capitalized "Galactic Center" made the case that there did exist a semantic distinction to justify the capitalization.

Ultimately, though, while I wanted to clarify my thinking, I still can't help but feel like our views on this policy are too divergent to really be bridged. In the interest of not going around in circles any further, I'm going to vacate my close and reopen the RM. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:42, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

Withdrawing the close resolves the key issue. However, you may or may not realise a very pertinent point you have made in reply: but honestly, I don't think there is a clear distinction drawn for these particular cases; we have to evaluate the evidence on a case-by-case basis to gauge whether there's a proper noun or not - which takes us back to the evidence of usage. What is a proper name is something generally poorly understood since many rely on the simplistic definition. A true proper name is not descriptive and unfortunately, people are inclined to categorise all of the things that are conventionally capitalised in English as proper names. For example, we conventionally capitalise the names of businesses and institution such as London's Natural History Museum, even though such names are often descriptive. Whether the title of a work (eg a book) is a proper name is debatable. There are many books printed with the same name and we would use the indefinite article: I was reading a book called "To Kill a Mocking Bird". The intellectual property is abstract, not concrete and cognitive development studies relate that proper names are associated with the concrete. Rather than categorising titles of works as proper nanmes (even though the title might be quite descriptive of content), it is perhaps better to say that we use title case for the titles of works. Place/feature names like: London, Pacific, Tonkin and Nile may have an etymology but are not descriptive, though they sometimes have an associated class descriptor such as: ocean, gulf or river, which is sometimes near always or sometimes much less often capped. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) acknowledges these descriptors should not always be capitalised. In some ways, it begs the question of whether it is galactic or centre which is the descriptor here, but both are. Something like the Rocky Mountains are inherently descriptive but it is still an arbitrary name, in as much as it might just as easily have been given a different name (eg what if the Pacific had been stormy when Magellan sailed into it?). My working hypothesis on the capitalisation of these descriptors is that we tend to translate cartographic conventions into prose. SIGNIFCAPS refers to terms of art, which are part of the jargon of any field of study or occupation. Such descriptive terms often have a more specific meaning than denoted by the descriptive phrase and are often distinguished by capitalisation. This is directly analogous to capitalisation of galactic centre to denote the centre of the Milky Way, rather than any other galaxy. WP:SSF addresses this use of capitalisation and that essay is supported by citation. The understanding of vocational jargon as a barrier to learning was part of my studies as a vocational educator. This isn't so much to convince you but you may be interested in a different perspective. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:16, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

Again, you didn't answer my added information above, especially the IAU link which, alongside the Simbad focus brought late in the discussion, should have addressed your concerns about maybe-maybe not. Reopening the discussion seems to be giving into the noisiest bell, but on the other hand it does give me the chance to introduce IAU and the galaxy guideline into the mix. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:03, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

In my original close, I hesitated to place too much weight on the capitalization in Simbad, since I thought a fair concern was raised in the discussion as to whether Simbad uses sentence case or title case for titling its entries. A title-case source won't be much help for determining whether a term is capitalized or not in sentence case, after all. That said, the reopened discussion will hopefully allow editors to discuss Simbad in more depth; if that further discussion leads us to a consensus, whatever that consensus may be, then it will have been a success in my book. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:32, 15 April 2025 (UTC)

I don't know if this is done, but if it is maybe you can come by and reinstate your original close edited with information provided since you relisted the page a couple of weeks ago. If anything the case for "not moved" is stronger since the relist. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:33, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate the outreach, but personally, I prefer not to reclose discussions I've already closed and reopened—even if more discussion has taken place, it still feels to me like I'd be taking two bites of the apple by closing the same discussion again. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 04:07, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, thought I'd ask as you got it right last time. Makes me wonder now where that expression came from and what is wrong with taking a second bite of an apple. I'll look around and try to find out. Thanks again. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:11, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

aha, seems to be taking two turns at bobbing for apples. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:14, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

RfC on guidance for alternative/bonus track-listings on album articles

I've started an RfC about the guidance at MOS:ALBUMS for alternative and bonus tracks. I've notified you because you've participated in a past discussion of the issue. See the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Albums#RfC_on_bonus_and_alternate_track_listings.--3family6 (Talk to me|See what I have done) 17:48, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for the notification! I'll take a look. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 18:32, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

RM closure on Kiko Pangilinan

I know that it's not a vote, and you alluded it on the close, with the nominator, Pat, and Royiswariii supporting and only me opposing. Pat's !vote rested solely on the fact that it was the "WP:COMMONAME", and was disproved by the replies to my !vote. Royiswariii materially misrepresented his !vote. I would have appreciated this to have been relisted for the meantime. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:29, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

To expound on my reasoning in a bit more detail: given your criticism of the sources Royiswariii linked, I spot-checked them myself to confirm how Pangilinan's name was used, and I noticed that—while you correctly pointed out that both ABS-CBN and the Senate biography first mention him as Francis "Kiko" Pangilinan—they also both go on to refer to him later as "Kiko" alone. Thus, I felt it was ultimately fairest to factor in those sources when making my analysis, with the result that there were a comparable volume of sources provided in the discussion supporting either name. Accordingly, I don't think the WP:COMMONNAME argument was disproved so much as contested. And, while a discussion as a whole isn't a vote, I think that—where a discussion includes a dispute on the interpretation of a given policy, and the arguments are of comparable strength—it can nevertheless be useful to consult the relative numbers supporting either interpretation to determine which interpretation is the "mainstream" one, so to speak. When I took all of those factors into account, I felt that a closure of "moved" was ultimately most appropriate. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:47, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

FWIW, the ABS-CBN article was the WP:RS among the two, with the official Senate biography being WP:SELFPUBLISHED. With that being said, Pat's reasoning was ill-informed; he thought that "Most media outlets" referred to Bongbong Marcos as "Ferdinand Marcos" when it wasn't the case. His !vote was based on wrong information.

Ultimately, it boils down to the nominator TheNuggeteer, who did not offer proof(!) and Royiswariii, who misrepresented sources, vs. my findings (and comparisons to other people, notwithstanding Marcos). Howard the Duck (talk) 18:57, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Fair point on the Senate biography being self-published, but even if we remove that from consideration, that doesn't dramatically change the ratio of sources presented. (The GMA article, which I forgot to mention before, is analogous to ABS-CBN in first using both names but using "Kiko" later down.) As for the other concerns you mention, I'm not sure any of them rise to the level of affecting my findings. Media outlets' discussion of Bongbong Marcos isn't relevant to this RM; Pat may have been wrong about how media outlets refer to Marcos, but that doesn't have any bearing on the actual topic of the RM. TheNuggeteer may not have furnished proof for their claim, but it was substantively the same claim for which Royiswariii later offered evidence, namely that "Kiko" is Pangilinan's best-known—i.e., common—name. If multiple editors make the same claim, it would be needlessly bureaucratic to require them each to independently prove it. Finally, as I mentioned in my previous message, I evaluated Royiswariii's sources myself due to the dispute over how they name Pangilinan—and while Royiswariii could have been more forthcoming about the sources mentioning the name "Francis", I don't believe they "misrepresented sources" in a materially significant way. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 19:57, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

I did offer other WP:RS that exclusively use "Francis Pangilinan", exclusively without the "Kiko" name (it was a reply to Pat's reply); while I do not expect that completely invalidates Royiswariii's materially misrepresented submissions, it should have been given at least a relisting (sorry I dunno if WP:RMs are relisted).

To recap:

• TheNuggeteer made a claim with no basis.
• Pat seconded TheNuggeteer's claim, also with no basis, and even had the wrong impression on other things, that had it apply to the discussion at hand.
• I presented WP:RS that specifically excluded the "Kiko" name, and pointed out Pat had the wrong impression on how Marcos was primarily known, and that it should not had applied on how Pangilinan's article is titled here.
• Royiswariii materially mispresented some of his findings. He is the only person aside from me to present actual proof from WP:RS.

At the very least, this could had been relisted if that was an option. Howard the Duck (talk) 20:34, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

I considered the RS you mentioned in your comment on the RM as well, yes; I apologize if I gave the impression that I had overlooked them. However, reviewing the evidence collectively from all parties suggested that both names were used for Pangilinan, at roughly comparable frequencies. With the evidence not obviously preferring either name, I also factored in editors' broad appraisals of the overall usage, to get a sense of which interpretations of the COMMONNAME argument appeared to be found most compelling by the community of participants. To that end: while an evidence-free assertion like those made by Pat or TheNuggeteer would not have been convincing in a vacuum, it was significant to me that they were substantively identical claims to the one made with evidence by Royiswariii. Roy's evidence made clear that the COMMONNAME argument was at least plausibly sound (again, I disagree that any misrepresentations he made were material). With that evidence presented, it would be unduly bureaucratic to throw out other comments that made the same argument, even if those other comments were posted chronologically before the evidence was provided. Finally, as I said in my previous comment, Marcos was not the topic of this RM and questions of how to present his name did not impact my decision-making process. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 21:39, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

To sumarrize, TheNuggeteer initiated the RM with no proof. If this was AFD this should have been pointed out already. Pat then seconded TheNuggeteer. Again, if this was AFD both !votes should had been discounted. I then said people know this guy as "Francis" with the nickname "Kiko". It's different from the list of people I listed on my first comment. Now, I should not have brought Bongbong Marcos onto the discussion; that's on me. Pat asked about the exception (people know Bongbong's given name is "Ferdinand"), since if people know Bongbong=Ferdinand, so Francis=Kiko, with him saying " media outlets and government sources refer to him as President Ferdinand Marcos Jr.", which is empirically false. I had the impression he based his !vote on TheNuggeteer's opening statement not based on any policy, then asked me if my !vote was grounded in policy. Which I did, and presented two WP:RS that use the name "Francis Pangilinan" without the name "Kiko" (to demonstrate the difference with Paolo Benigno, Christopher Lawrence, Victor Ma. Regis, Maria Josefina Tanya).

Royiswariii then, and materially represented saying "all sources"... "recognized as 'Kiko Pangilinan'"... "demonstrate the WP:COMMONAME". This is an empirical example of material misrepresentation LOL. Only one of his submissions "demonstrate the WP:COMMONAME"... "as 'Kiko Pangilinan'". One other submission was not WP:RS, or what were indeed WP:RS combine Kiko with Francis. If he's arguing for the article to be named as "Francis Kiko Panglinan" his argument made sense.

Again, I am not saying for you "to throw out other comments". I was asking for relist. Howard the Duck (talk) 21:59, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

A relist is certainly possible, but the RM was already relisted once prior, and I'm generally skeptical of the utility of RM relists beyond the first. The discussion had been open for 45 days and hadn't received a comment in 22; I think it's very well within standard norms to close an RM that's been languishing unedited for three weeks, and to be honest, I'm not at this point convinced that I've made any errors in my close that would necessitate overturning it.

To further clarify my thinking on Royiswariii in particular—while several of the sources he linked did indeed use the structure "Francis 'Kiko' Pangilinan" when first introducing Pangilinan, each source that did that also went on to refer to Pangilinan at least once as simply "Kiko" in the article body (and never as just "Francis"). I can furnish quotes if desired. Where both of these behaviors coexist in a source, my interpretation is that that source views "Kiko" as the subject's most recognizable name, and uses a more comprehensive form at the start for purely introductory purposes (not unlike how, in biographical articles here on Wikipedia, we break out a subject's full birth name a single time at the very beginning of their lead). That reason is why I didn't view Royiswariii as having made "material" misrepresentations; he didn't describe the sources he linked with complete accuracy, but when checking the actual source content, I believed that they still supported the argument he was trying to make.

(I think I've already explained my views on all of the other comments you refer to, so I'll avoid making this already-long comment any longer, but please feel free to let me know if there's any points on which further clarification would be useful.) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 01:57, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

If you can relist so many number of times, I'd concede that at that stage of the discussion, it may have been extended to a point nobody cares anymore.

As for material misrepresentation, we are not moving the article to "Kiko" or even "Francis Kiko Pangilinan". News articles do not use the entire name, and my personal rule on this is how the subject was referred to in the first reference, that's how the article wants to call the person. Otherwise, we move Michael Jordan to "Jordan" and Michael Jackson to "Michael", Or that Cristiano Ronaldo is "Ronaldo", ignoring WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.

I'm glad though you conceded that Royiswariii "didn't describe the sources he linked with complete accuracy", which is a rather lengthy way to say he materially misrepresented his !vote, and his vote being the only material of those who supported, including the nominator. With that being said, I'll see what else can be done about this. Howard the Duck (talk) 02:19, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

For reference, if you're interested in formally contesting the close, the standard venue for that is Wikipedia:Move review. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:26, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

Discussion regarding the "Non-lethal weapon" move request closure

Hello ModernDayTrilobite,

You recently closed the move request for "Non-lethal weapon" to "Less-lethal weapon." I appreciate you taking the time to close the discussion.

However, having reviewed the decision in the context of previous discussions on this same topic from 2021 and 2020, I believe the closure warrants a second look. The rationale that "non-lethal weapon" remains the WP:COMMONNAME doesn't seem to fully account for the significant, policy-based arguments that have been consistently raised. I would like to discuss this with you before considering a formal move review. My main concerns are as follows:

1. Flawed Interpretation of WP:COMMONNAME and Consensus: Your closing statement suggests a clear consensus around WP:COMMONNAME. However, this issue has a long history of being contentious, with the 2021 move request on this exact topic being closed as "no consensus" because there were "valid argument[s] made on either side." The arguments in the most recent discussion were largely the same, yet the outcome was a firm "not moved." This suggests the current closure may have relied more on a simple headcount of !votes rather than weighing the policy-based arguments, which is how consensus on Wikipedia is determined. When a common name is not definitively established or is actively contested, other policies like WP:PRECISION must be given greater weight.

2. Weight of Evidence for COMMONNAME and Authoritative Sources: The claim that the "data furnished appeared to corroborate" the use of "non-lethal weapon" is an oversimplification that ignores compelling counter-evidence. Usage Data: The discussion about Google Ngrams showed that combined usage for "less-lethal weapon(s)" in books has overtaken or matched non-lethal. Additionally, my point about Google News traffic—which reflects more current, common usage in media—was not substantively addressed. As was detailed in the 2021 discussion, a closer look at sources like The Washington Post reveals a clear editorial shift toward "less-lethal" in recent years, indicating that common usage among high-quality sources is actively evolving.

3. Authoritative Sources: Furthermore, the argument about WP:OFFICIALNAME is not as clear-cut as presented. While the Department of Defense and NATO may use "non-lethal" in official definitions, many other authoritative bodies, particularly in law enforcement and justice, have adopted "less-lethal." For instance, the U.S. National Institute of Justice uses the term "Less-Lethal Methods" in its use-of-force continuum, and the California Penal Code provides a specific legal definition for "Less lethal weapon." This is echoed internationally by the United Nations, which uses "less-lethal" in both its Peacekeeping standards and Human Rights guidance, and the UK's College of Policing. This indicates "less-lethal" is not an informal term but one with formal standing among a wide array of authoritative sources.

4. Ignoring the Core Issue of Accuracy (WP:PRECISION): The central, recurring argument across all discussions is that "non-lethal" is factually inaccurate. These weapons can and do kill. As one editor noted in 2020, this isn't an opinion, it's a fact. Even sources that use the term "non-lethal" often feel compelled to add a caveat explaining they can be fatal, which itself proves the term is misleading. Wikipedia's naming conventions aim for accuracy. When faced with a choice between a precise term ("less-lethal") and a demonstrably imprecise, even propagandistic, one ("non-lethal"), the encyclopedia should favor precision and NPOV.

This is not a new or frivolous request; it is a long-standing issue rooted in a fundamental conflict between an inaccurate, though historically common, term and a more precise, modern alternative now widely used by authoritative sources. The persistence of this debate shows a genuine, policy-based concern that has not been adequately resolved.

Given the prior "no consensus" result and the significant evidence favoring a shift in usage and the importance of precision, I believe the recent closure was premature. I would appreciate it if you could reconsider your close or provide a more detailed rationale in light of this history.

Thank you for your time and for your work as a page mover. Sincerely,Poketama (talk) 03:57, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

To address your points in turn:

1. It's important to remember that consensus can change—an argument that fails to gain consensus at one time could gain consensus at another, due to shifts over time in any number of factors. The whole reason that this RM was started was to pursue a consensus that was not found in 2021, so it seems illogical to argue that finding consensus on a previously no-consensus topic is inherently suspect. Additionally, while a discussion is certainly more than a simple headcount, it's also the case that—where a discussion involves competing (but both plausible) interpretations of the same policy, as happened with WP:COMMONNAME here—it can be useful to refer to the numbers favoring each argument to get a sense of whether one interpretation is substantially more mainstream than another.
2. The full discussion of the Ngrams made a compelling case that the data showing "less-lethal" as having surpassed "non-lethal" was rooted in methodological errors. When reviewing the final Ngrams data presented at the end of the conversational thread, even when adding "less lethal weapons" as you'd suggested in the discussion, I saw a clear lead for the various forms of "non-lethal weapons" over the forms of "less-lethal weapons". As for Google News, when I reviewed the Google News links you shared, it showed me 22,300 results for "non-lethal weapons" vs. 13,700 for "less-lethal weapons". Thus, even if Google News is inherently more reflective of common usage than Google Books (a premise that I'd want to see more widely supported before accepting, honestly), its findings don't seem to change the calculus.
3. This is a fair point, but it moves the argument of "what name predominates in official definitions" to "it's inconclusive" rather than "less-lethal weapons is clearly favored". In any case, it's long-held practice that COMMONNAME supersedes arguments based on official names, so this point would not significantly change the result of the discussion unless there was a strong consensus that the COMMONNAME should not be used.
4. WP:PRECISION is about avoiding ambiguity, not about enforcing accuracy. Many topics are known by names that aren't fully accurate—as an example off the top of my head, the flying squirrel can't actually fly. What matters for Wikipedia's naming conventions is that the title is accurate to what the topic is called, rather than necessarily reflecting how it functions in practice. (Descriptive titles are an exception to this, as those are titles that by design are specifically crafted for Wikipedia, but this isn't one such case.)

In summary, based on the arguments presented on each side of the discussion, I felt that the strength of argument supported the claim that "non-lethal weapon" remained the common name for the topic; the common name question occupied a large majority of the discussion, and other arguments were mentioned passingly enough (or, in the case of the official name, were dubious enough) that they didn't have a substantial impact on the overall consensus of the discussion. Let me know if there are any points that would benefit from further clarification. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:25, 2 July 2025 (UTC)

Closure at Talk:Nuseirat rescue and massacre

Very nice close, imo, and a good reading of the consensus. Great job! I think it's very likely that the eventual title of the article should be Nuseirat raid, but this discussion provided insufficient consensus to justify that move. Cheers, Suriname0 (talk) 22:03, 25 July 2025 (UTC)

Orion (constellation) move request

Thanks a lot for taking the time to evaluate the move request and for writing few lines.

I do understand what you wrote about WP:PT2, especially after Skynxnex very good comment probably did not just change my point of view.

I would however, like to ask you to reconsider your verdict that this was a consensus based on WP:PT1. I have discussed the previous closure with the closer Hilst here. In the meantime not much happened, which supports to close the debate. Only Joy argued in the meantime based on the disambiguation stats that they point towards WP:PT1 not being fulfilled, while I explained that the very low usage numbers of the disambiguation page do not allow statistical relevant analysis without a huge effort of disentangling all the influences. I provided three different ways of calculating the constellation pageview numbers, all being above 55%. And while 2 persons at the beginning of the debate said the numbers are clearly too low (based on stats going back to 2015, not current ones), 4 people agreed the numbers are high enough, two of them towards the end of the discussion (while even !voting OPPOSE, mostly argueing with WP:PT2). So if you subtract the persons simply writing statements and the ones !voting based on low number stats or outdated stats/numbers, there is a clear consensus that WP:PT1 is fulfilled.

This debate was a sobering expereince, because after 2 relistings and lots of OPPOSES, I could not get an answer why according to WP:PT2 Orion the hunter is equally long-term significant. Till the first closure noone gave an answer that was consistent with the guidelines, not based on name origin (given as non-determinative in the guidelines) or being proof by assertion. In this last week another 3 of such comments were given and, however, to hightlight it again ONE very good comment.

I do not think more discussion will bring a consensus. But I would appreciate a lot if you reconsider why you see a consensus of WP:PT1 towards being not fulfilled. I am aware this would only change the result from not moved based on consensus to not moved based on no consensus, but future potential discussions should not be hindered by a not moved based on a consensus, which has not been reached in the debate.

Maybe I misunderstand you, but it feels a bit disappointing if it is the case that enough OPPOSES based on non guideline conform reasons or no reasons are enough to steer a debate to a 'consensus'. To my best knowledge such a case should not even stop a consensus in the opposite direction, otherwise it can probably never being reached. I can see your doubts regarding WP:PT2, while the doubts in the debate are actually very weak, almost all comments being against guidelines, which would warrant more discussion, that will likely again not lead to a result, but your point on WP:PT1 I can not see why.

If you can tell me based on which part of the discussion you see the consensus towards not moving proven, maybe I missed some good reasons, I would appreciate that and of course accept it. Thanks again. Stevinger (talk) 19:30, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that the opposition along PT1 lines is as weak as you portray it, honestly. For instance, I would disagree with the characterization of longer-term pageview stats as "outdated." In my view, pageview stats that stretch from 2015 to the present are often more informative than stats that only show a snapshot of a brief moment; as an example of their utility, they can show whether trends at any one time are anomalous or are part of a consistent pattern. I also didn't find myself convinced by the arguments to discount WikiNav numbers. From what I've seen across various RMs, WikiNav data tends to be a well-trusted reference point for investigating possible primary topics. That norm can certainly be overruled by consensus in a given discussion, but I didn't see the breadth of support that I would want to see in that process.

I was also unconvinced about the utility of adding the pageviews of "Orion Nebula" to those of "Orion (constellation)"; the two articles are separate, even though their topics are related, so—even if we accept that interest in the nebula's article inherently counts as interest in the constellation's article—the resulting sum would likely include duplicate views from readers who visited both pages.

That said, while I do think it appropriate to use some of my own discretion to evaluate the strengths of various arguments made, ultimately I close based on what arguments were found to be most convincing by the discussion participants themselves. And there too I see editors largely supporting the idea that the stats, read as a collective, favor keeping the articles at their current titles. Bkonrad/Older and Joy both made their cases at length in the RM; Srnec seconded Bkonrad's analysis, Mdewman also gave a brief concurrence, and Jruderman argued that the 3:1 pageview ratio (i.e., of "Orion (constellation)" alone vs. "Orion (mythology)") fell short of the much more likely than any other single topic standard of PT1. This is a large proportion of the RM participants, using several angles of analysis that to my eye were consistently fairly sound, and all coming to a shared opinion that the constellation does not meet PT1.

Regarding Skynxnex, their comment makes the case that 65% more for the constellation than everything else combine probably does meet WP:PT1's test [...] but not by much. The 65% number they quote also counts Orion Nebula's views toward Orion (constellation), though. In the RM you note that "Orion (constellation)" alone only reaches 55% of search results; given that Skynxnex views 65% as meeting PT1 only narrowly, I don't think their stance can necessarily be assumed to hold true at 55% as well. For that reason, I was hesitant to place too much weight on their analysis of PT1.

To summarize the above lines of thinking: the viewpoint that "Orion (constellation)" did not meet the PT1 standard attracted broad support in the discussion, backed by various editors with various arguments, and—based on my review of the rebuttals—I didn't think they had the strength or prevalence to have fully countered those arguments. Accordingly, I felt that the argumentation on balance supported that the constellation did not meet PT1. Hopefully this clarifies my thinking; if there's anything I haven't fully explained, please feel free to ask. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 20:50, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Looking back, I'm not sure I completely processed that the 65% included the Orion Nebula (my own fault) and probably wouldn't have suggested it meets PT1 if I had. I hadn't really followed up much more since it is a some what close call, there was a lot of text, and I don't think there was much much to add more since it seemed clear to me the consensus was against the move (I'd probably argue that the earlier close shouldn't have been undone). Skynxnex (talk) 21:29, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

I was not trying to say that longer-term pageview stats are useless, this is why I used the term outdated. I agree it can give more information, but I was suggesting to use the information differently. If you follow the pageviews from 2015 you can see, that almost all Orion related pages stay constant in pageviews, but Orion (disambiguation), despite being front page, gets less and less, reducing its numbers by a factor of 4-6 from 2015 to now and that Orion (constellation) increased its numbers by 50% - 100% compared to 2015 in the recent 2-3 years. This is valueable information. But this is also the reason I took the stats from the last year, as it is more representative of the current situation, while keeping the development trend in mind.

This can be very important, as the the 3:1 pageview ratio (i.e., of "Orion (constellation)" alone vs. "Orion (mythology)") is within the last year about a 5:1 that more reasonably seems to fulfill the much more likely argument. Most of the original contributors were !voting based on the assumption the constellation does not have the majority, but counting Orion Nebula against Orion constellation. This might be equally flawed as counting it to the constellation article.

To me it felt clear, we clarified this point, why I gave several calculations, confusing indeed. But I only ask to compare the case on the same rule basis:

A) Ignore Orion Nebula (I will show under B why) and calculate the numbers: Gives you 61% at ratio ~ 5:1 or higher to others

B) Take all the side typics into account, like the Mitsubishi Orion engine or the brother of Mark Twain. But then you need to not ignore that people reading Orion's belt (outsourced article of Orion constellation), or others of this kind Orion Nebula, Betelgeuse, Rigel. If you directly go to Orion's Belt you do not count to constellatioon, though you came for that. On the other side Orion (Star Trek) and lots of other article were ignored, too not related to the constellation. The constellation articles, however, have up to 10 times the pageviews, so it is unlikely enough Orion related other articles can be found to lower the 61% number. The numbers, e.g. some here, if you don't play out e.g. Orion's belt against Orion constellation, but assume it is connnected, suggest > 61 % for Orion (constellation) among all Orion related articles (I did not do the full math, but I also did not suggest this approach) at a minimum ratio of ~ 5:1 against Orion (mythology) as well as 5:1 against Orion (spacecraft) (only using Orion (constellation) numbers !!)

C) the most reasonable to me is this one. You take only the ones people would expect to find if they only type Orion as a single word. This e.g. not includes Mitsubishi Orion engine, but also not Orion Nebula or Orion Pictures, ... please see the numbers here: You reach 66.7% for Orion (constellation) at a minimum ratio of again ~ 5:1. The mythology, constellation, SF race, spacecraft and comic book character are the ones identified with Orion, not just nicknamed from a longer name or related.

So we are back to a ~ two-third majority. Different people discussed based on different statistics. I assumed that the PT1 had a clear consensus for moving, if the rules of calculating the numbers are properly defined.

I don't mind if the debate is closed. But my question is, based on which rules for the statistics, not the number of !votes !voting on flawed statistics in the one or other direction, do you assume that PT1 gives a consensus towards not moving? Again the ones against it were at the beginning. I agree I exxagerated the weakness of the opposition along PT1 lines. But I did not exxagerate on how weak the statistical background opposition is in my point of view. Is two-thirds and a ratio of 5:1 or more really considered weak???

For the extreme case I found, the constellation Centaurus ~ 21 % of pageviews and a ratio of 3:1 (vs. Centaurus Greek mythology) or 1:3 (vs. Centaur Greek mythology) was enough that the constellation is the primary topic.

Thanks again for your time. Stevinger (talk) 22:43, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Please excuse me, if this amount of text is a bit much. I discussed that with Hilst. According to what is given at WP:RMCOMMENT 'the debate is not a vote'. Of course every recommendation should matter. But while for PT2 the situation is difficult, PT1 seems to boil down to mathematics. And I don't see how multiple solutions to a defined problem (for the numbers at least, not the interpretation) should be possible in this case. And the interpretation limits or at least orientation for limits are given in WP:PT1 (more likely than all the other topics combined - check). Stevinger (talk) 23:20, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

PT1 as written is fairly mathematical in that respect—"more likely than all the other topics combined." But even so, there's a degree of interpretation involved in reading any policy; for the example most relevant to this case, I occasionally see people argue that a topic that only marginally surpasses other-topics-combined isn't in keeping with the spirit of PT1 even though it meets the letter of the policy. Thus, when I'm working on a close, one of the aspects I examine is: where the interpretation of a policy is debated, and both interpretations feel comparably plausible, does one interpretation prevail among the participants at large? This can lead to inconsistent outcomes between different discussions, but I think it's a necessary step in determining one particular discussion's consensus.

To tie this back to your question: I think the underlying ratios at play in the Orion RM were in a sort of gray area, where a plausible case could be made that the constellation either did or didn't pass PT1. And with that fact pattern in place, I had to look at not just which arguments were stronger or weaker but also which policy interpretations were inside or outside of the mainstream. And so—although I might have found the constellation's PT1 case stronger if I were making the decision unilaterally, my read of the discussion was (1) that the constellation didn't meet the PT1 standard as it was viewed by the participants at large, and (2) that this reading of the PT1 standard fell within the bounds of reasonability. And accordingly, the right thing for me to do as the closer was to acknowledge that interpretation as the consensus.

(No worries about the length of the comment, btw! I've definitely been known to be verbose myself.) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 23:47, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. This all sounds very reasonable und understandable. However, I still think you are not aware of everything that happened in the debate, and so few additional questions arise:

You argued very clearly 'utility of adding the pageviews of "Orion Nebula" to those of "Orion (constellation)"; the two articles are separate, even though their topics are related, so—even if we accept that interest in the nebula's article inherently counts as interest in the constellation's article—the resulting sum would likely include duplicate views from readers who visited both pages.' I agree, this is understandable and I will take this into account in the future. This made you put less weight to Skynxnex's analysis and you mention 'Bkonrad/Older ... made their cases at length in the RM; Srnec seconded Bkonrad's analysis'. However, Bkonrad/Older argues 'all other combined certainly do not amount to over 9 million is easily disproven. Pageviews Analysis show views for just the spacecraft, mythological figure, and nebula amount to nearly 9M'. If Orion (constellation) and Orion Nebula are related, then putting it against Orion (constellation) to prove it has no majority is at least as misleading as bundling the two together. I assume this was not intentional but this way Bkonrad/Older and Srnec !voted based on the assumption that Orion (constellation) is at 44% of pageviews, while it is at 50%, if Orion Nebula is taken out and at 61% if current numbers from last year are invoked instead of 2015-now. This is quite a difference.

Regarding the disambiguation page. I did not want to argue that this is not a good rule of thumb and can be very helpful. But I tried to explain to Joy that it is not a good choice for the specific case of Orion:

1) If you search for Orion with a search engine from outside of Wikipedia, the constellation is usually preferred. So more people will directly land at the Orion (constellation) page, even the ones looking for something else. The hatnote at the Orion (constellation) page refers you to the Orion (disambiguation) page. From there you go to whatever you were looking for (but not the constellation!).

2) Even if you are directly going to the Orion (mythology) page via a search engine (less likely), there is no hatnote to Orion (disambiguation). I would in this case use the Wikipedia search on top of the page, not search for a disambiguation page. Thus people erroneously reaching mythology, looking for the constellation do less likely appear on the disambiguation page.

3) If you are already on Wikipedia and use the Wikipedia search on top of the page the Orion (constellation) page is the 2nd suggestion in the drop down menu opening after typing Orion, Orion (mythology) is the 6th suggestion. It is thus again more likely if you look for mythology to miss it and still use the first suggestion - the disambiguation page.

Regarding these 3 effects above the meaning of about 42 % of people that use the disambiguation page going then to Orion (mythology) vs. about 36% of people going then to Orion (constellation) loses statistically a lot of meaning !! Yes, we can prove more people looking for the Orion (mythology) page use the disambiguation page, but whether this proves that Orion (constellation) is not the primary topic taking the three effects on top into account is very doubtful. Btw, I assume this assymetry of hatnotes and suggestion in the drop down menu in the Wikipedia Search is not always present when the disambiguation page is used as rule of thumb and gives nicely fitting result. At least this proves, the page should not be the deciding factor here.

Now back to tie this back to your answer and whether PT1 is met or not. In total 9 people commented on PT1, if I counted right. One person only wrote: 'several major topics share this name, there is no primary.' I hope it is fine to not count this statement. It is very general and seems not to meet the guideline ''The debate is not a vote; please do not make recommendations that are not sustained by arguments.' (WP:RMCOMMENT) or take 'Explain how the proposed article title meets or contravenes policy and guidelines rather than merely stating that it does so.' (WP:RMCOMMENT)

• (2/8) argue PT1 is not met based on the usage statistics majority (Bkonrad/Older and Srnec), which I just explained happened on flawed statistics and seems thus of less weight than others.
• (2/8) argue PT1 is not met based on the disambiguation page (Mdewman6 and Joy), which is also not a very strong argument regarding the assymetries in the hatnotes and in the drop down of the Wikipedia search
• (2/8) argue PT1 is met (Jruderman and Skynxnex) based on the/my bundled statistics, so also not very strong arguments for it
• (2/8) argue PT1 is met (the nominator 21.Andromedae and Stevinger (me)). Bkonrad/Older argued Orion (constellation) does not have a majority including Orion Nebula against it. 21.Andromedae replied this is not correct this way. Srnec seconded Bkonrad's analysis, why I seconded 21.Andromedae's analysis, that this is still not correct this way.

This means depending what you count it was a tie of 4 vs. 4, or a 4 vs. 2 for moving (if the first erroneous statistics is dismissed) or a 2 vs. 2 (if the bundling is dismissed, too) or a 2 vs. 0 for moving or a 1 vs. 1 (just in the week after the recent relisting) or a 0 vs. 0 (if you regard my and Joy's statistical analysis as erroneous, too). So a maximum of a tie or more !votes for moving. I btw included Joy as !voting for PT1 not met from the context, while Joy technically never !voted (recommended).

This long text later leaves me with 3 questions:

1) Why should Orion Nebula be allowed to be included against Orion (constellation) if it is related? I understand the duplicates of pageviews if it is bundled together, but if people directly reach Orion Nebula (related or within Orion (constellation)), never go to Orion (constellation) it is equally or even more skewing the stats if they are put on opposing sides.

2) If there are at least two/three effects that skew the disambiguation outflow/usage stats here, namely the assymetric use of hatnotes at constellation and mythology page and the very different suggestion position (2nd vs. 6th) in the Wikipedia search drop down, why should the disambiguation stats be an equally good rule of thumb here than for other cases?

3) If I missed a natural explanation, which surely can happen, for 1) and 2) my last question is why do you consider a 4 vs. 4 tie, even if all comments towards PT1 count, no matter how flawed the reasoning in either direction is, has a 'mainstream' or that one side 'prevail among the participants at large'? Of course lots of people !voted oppose based on PT2 arguments which you wrote is discussed with 'less precision', which I regard as strong understatement, as barely any edit is consistent with the guidelines, but this does not explain '(1) that the constellation didn't meet the PT1 standard as it was viewed by the participants at large'

I would appreciate a lot if you would also answer these questions. That would help a lot to understand your view in case you were aware of all these things. Thanks again. Stevinger (talk) 03:11, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

To address your questions in turn:

(1) I'd disagree with the argument that the constellation and nebula being related means that their views can't be used in opposition to each other when attempting to calculate a primary topic; in fact, it's fairly common in the RM space for there to be debates about which of several closely related topics deserves the primary title. As a hypothetical example, one could certainly imagine a primary topic debate over SpongeBob SquarePants vs. SpongeBob SquarePants (character) vs. SpongeBob SquarePants (franchise). I think it's reasonable to extend that principle of "closely related topics may still compete for views" to cases like this one where the closely related topics aren't the only ones under discussion; multiple articles can't have the same title, after all, so any two articles on similarly named subjects are inherently competing for the primary one. (Downstream of this, my opinion on this matter also means that I disagree with the conclusion that Bkonrad's stats are erroneous.)

(2) Arguments based on predicted reader behavior, such as by the ones regarding the hatnote asymmetry or the suggestion position, are inherently somewhat speculative—accordingly, I usually only weigh them highly if they're widely supported in the discussion. I don't see that level of support as having occurred in the RM discussion; the note about the suggestion position was only mentioned by you, and doesn't appear to have been engaged with or to have slowed further opposition after its original mention on July 5. Meanwhile, unless I'm missing something (please feel free to correct me if I am), the hatnote asymmetry doesn't seem to have been discussed in the RM itself at all. With these factors not appearing to have been heavily supported in the discussion, I don't see them as successfully contesting the utility of the DAB stats for this purpose.

(3) To start by addressing the numbers: as I touched on earlier, while Skynxnex argued that PT1 was met based on the 65% number, their analysis ("not by a lot") did not convince me that they would feel the same about the 55% number that remains when "Orion Nebula" is discounted. Accordingly, I'm inclined to instead count them as neutral on the PT1 question. Then, as for Jruderman, their only comment states that the ratio is not enough to create a primary topic (emphasis mine) and then goes on to note other factors that they feel further weaken the primary topic claim. Thus, I think they should be counted on the PT1-is-not-met side of the debate. Based on those two adjustments, my read is that the numbers shake out to 5 vs. 2 in favor of not moving, rather than 4 vs. 4. Given these numbers, and my belief in the accuracy of the statistical arguments presented against moving, I think it was reasonable to conclude that the prevailing view in the discussion was that the constellation did not meet PT1.

Let me know if anything needs further clarification. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:21, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

To address your replies: (Thank you)

(1) This response is surprising. But I actually fully agree to your SpongeBob SquarePants example. This shows related articles' views can be used in opposition. But there is a major difference to here. The character, franchise and series indeed compete for the very same name. It is not just about the relation but also about the name. The choice for the statistics of Orion was arbitrary (Joy said that in the debate). Why was e.g. Orion's Belt not included? If in another hypothetical example bacteria are found in the Atmosphere of Jupiter (unlikely), and everybody reads this article should this challenge Jupiter as primary topic? If someone decides this is not precise enough and creates Stratosphere of Jupiter and another one Upper Stratosphere of Jupiter, ... Or a more down to Earth example. If some famous person is injured (hopefully not) should a separate article about this injured part of the person, challenge the primary topic?

Or if there was only Orion (constellation) and Orion (mythology) for Orion. You argue that because of duplicates Orion costellation should not be bundled with subregions, understandable. But if many people are interested in all parts of the constellation this creates duplicates, too. You just need to include Orion's belt, Orion's sword, and Orion Nebula against Orion (constellation) and it lowers the apparent interest into Orion (constellation) enough that in this case the mythology can compete.

Or a less hypothetical case. There was the RM of Venus --> Venus (planet). Would you as hypothetical closer allowed Venus Williams (analog to Orion Nebula, but not even related) in the stats? It is dominant and puts Venus down to about 30%. Venus Williams is pretty famous, but it would surprise me, if I type Venus and Venus William's page appeared.

Regarding your example the equivalent of Orion Nebula, would be maybe SpongeBob Squarepants' Gary or SpongeBob Squarepants' Patrick (like Orion's Belt or Orion's Sword). These characters are very popular, but should not compete for primary topic of SpongeBob Squarepants. At least in my point of view.

I gave several examples because I think that such cases cannot be in the interest of Wikipedia. Either lots more related articles would have been needed to be included in the stats of Orion or only the ones that compete for the name Orion. Where am I wrong?

(2) I agree this is speculative. But the DAB statistics shouldn't be regarded as valid for every case and so do not not need to be contested individually. If we agree that the basis which I described for the DAB stats is speculative, then someone using it as an argument should explain why it is valid. Not after using it as argument in the first place, but after being asked, like I did with Joy. I hope we agree that an argument that is not engaged, if I understand you correctly, does not make the argument wrong. Not that I am saying some of my arguments weren't weak, but otherwise ignoring very good arguments in future debates would be beneficial. Joy reminded me that I shouldn't say only 1.4% of people use the disambiguation page because of duplicates, valid point. But if I argue we cannot disentangle several influences for duplicates regarding search engines, Wikipedia search, position in the drop down menu, assymetry in hatnotes, ... regarding the DAB this is not valid? I described the search engine differences btw with Joy. The word hatnote was not used, but it seemed not of interest. Again, not taking arguments into account does not make them invalid to my best knowledge.

Let's get back to the example of Venus. The WikiNav page of Venus (disambiguation) shows that Venus = Venus (planet) is only the 6th highest page to go to from Venus (disambiguation). I would assume this is because Venus (planet) is the front page Venus at the moment, but this is also speculative and can have very different reasons, too. Would you have allowed on the basis of reaching 30% vs. Venus Williams and being by far not the highest page to go to from the DAB that the Venus --> Venus (planet) move should happen, if it was mentioned and seconded by few people? This, as discussed with Hilst and the duplication problem are the reason why Orion Nebula should not be part of the stats. Again otherwise, where is Orion's Belt, Orion's Sword, ...? I was not trying to say the stats are erroneous (which I used to describe my stats, too), I am sorry that was not correct, but as my bundling it is misleading.

(3) You allow in the beginning that someone is counted as neutral if the stats are not valid. You should, however not use my misleading 55% value that was not correct in the debate either. This is why I gave you the A), B) and C) stats originally. Either it is C) with 66.7% or A) with 61%. The 66.7% appear when only the Orion name contenders are included as given in the stats above under point (1). If you allow that 65% were incorrect, then 55% are, too. And it seems reasonable 66.7% instead of 65% would not have changed something.

The same holds for Jruderman, you argue 'their only comment states that the ratio is not enough to create a primary topic (emphasis mine)', however, this refers to the 3:1 ratio, which is in several occasions discussed to be rather a ~5:1 ratio, which did not convince me they would feel the same about. And there is a second statement: 'leaving the constellation with only barely a majority of pageviews among articles with the same base name' (emphasis mine). While seen potentially differently, this confirms the majority needed and does not convince me it would change if the 66.7% would have been mentioned instead of the 55% (probably rather losing the barely from the sentence).

(If you get very technically on this, then the two DAB arguments shouldn't count, as they are not part of the PT1 point.)

Of course people could have reacted very differently, but they also might have not. And if 4 persons give sentences, that the majority is fulfilled, while the numbers after correction did not get lower, in the case of Jruderman even higher, independent of Orion Nebula artificially changing the stats, then there seems no basis to find a majority against it with 8 people in total.

Please correct me if you see problems. That examples need to speak of equivalent cases in (1), that doubts should lower the weight of an argument in (2) and that misleading stats on which decisions were made should be taken into account in (3) should always count for both sides, being for a move or being for a not move, right?

Thanks again. Stevinger (talk) 19:59, 30 July 2025 (UTC)

Continuing on with the discussion for each numbered point...

(1) I interpret the core thrust of your question here as asking, which partial title matches should be counted as competing for a primary title? This is a question that can absolutely be controversial and have various interpretations, so it's a situation where I again turn to the discussion participants and see what they include (or don't) in their analyses. To that end, while there certainly wasn't unanimous agreement as to whether the nebula should be included as a competitor for the title, it was incorporated in multiple analyses (Bkonrad's and Joy's) that I viewed as solid. (I will admit that I found Joy's analysis to be overbroad in one area—the incorporation of human names like Orion Clemens—as, with exceptions for certain highly prominent figures, I don't believe most people are known mononymously. I mention this for transparency, and because it's relevant to the example of Venus Williams that you mention, but I don't think it affects the discussion as regards Orion Nebula.) The case for including Orion Pictures is also analogous to Orion Nebula here.

Overall, I recognize that this isn't the most empirical basis for determining what topics to include or exclude, but unfortunately that's kind of the nature of Wikipedia discussions. The role of closers isn't to create a fully logical analytical framework, but to assess the conclusions of the discussion as it took place in practice.

(2) I think I take a generally more positive view of DAB statistics than you do; when it comes to determining the relative usage levels of multiple topics, I'm inclined to treat those stats as relevant by default and place the onus on people seeking to challenge their applicability. As for the interpretation of arguments that were not engaged with, we have sort of a Warnock's dilemma issue here—it might mean that the argument was compelling enough to be unrebuttable, but could also mean that the argument was seen as not significant enough to need extensive discussion. When evaluating arguments in this situation, the factors I weigh include: (a) How many people are making the argument? Is it a widely agreed-upon principle by supporters of one side of the debate, or is it just a single person's idea with no sign of further traction? (b) How closely tied is the argument to the actual letter of policy? In this case, as the search-result argument was both speculative and mentioned by just one member of a discussion with roughly a dozen participants, my interpretation was that the lack of further discussion on the point more likely meant that it was viewed as of low relevance.

Circling back around to the Venus question: I agree that it would be surprising for the planet Venus to lose its primary topic status because of Venus Williams, and honestly I would probably !vote to oppose it if the question came up in practice... but if a discussion occurred where a meaningful proportion of participants backed that argument, I could certainly see it being necessary to view that stance as having gained consensus.

(3) You raise a fair point regarding Jruderman—given that point, I'm willing to push them to neutral too, which would adjust the headcount to 4–2. However, as I mentioned above, I think it was a fair read of the discussion to consider Orion Nebula as among the competing titles here; unless I'm mistaken, including Orion Nebula (and Orion Pictures, whose situation is comparable) is what results in the 55% number. With that being said, I'm also admittedly uncertain whether it would change much to use the 61% number, since the 4–2 count already omits the participants who seemed to be on the fence. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:41, 31 July 2025 (UTC)