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The Signpost: 20 November 2023

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Books & Bytes – Issue 59

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In appreciation

The Systemic Bias Barnstar
For creating, expanding, and otherwise improving Mongol-related articles. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:50, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
@AirshipJungleman29 thanks so much! And know we've got some disagreement on an AfD, I want you to know I really appreciate the work you've done and continue to do and your constructive criticism. --3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 21:51, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Battle of Irtysh River (13th century)

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Voting for the WikiProject Military History newcomer of the year and military historian of the year awards for 2023 is now open!

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Your GA nomination of Kōka ikki

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DYK for Battle of Irtysh River (13th century)

On 24 January 2024, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Battle of Irtysh River (13th century), which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that during the Mongol campaigns in Siberia, the Mongols defeated rival tribes at the Battle of Irtysh River? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Battle of Irtysh River (13th century). You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Battle of Irtysh River (13th century)), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

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DYK for Mongol campaigns in Siberia

On 24 January 2024, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Mongol campaigns in Siberia, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that during the Mongol campaigns in Siberia, the Mongols defeated rival tribes at the Battle of Irtysh River? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Battle of Irtysh River (13th century). You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Mongol campaigns in Siberia), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

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Books & Bytes – Issue 60

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Your GA nomination of Iga–Kōka alliance

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Good article reassessment for Battle of B-R5RB

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Iga–Kōka alliance GAN

You may not have seen this, but User:Vami IV has passed away. I will be taking over the GA review in his memory. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 18:37, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

@Premeditated Chaos I did not see that! That's really sad. Thank you. --3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 19:24, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Category:Collectors of Shaker artifacts has been nominated for merging

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Books & Bytes – Issue 61

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Issue 61, January – February 2024

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Your GA nomination of Kōka ikki

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Your GA nomination of Kōka ikki

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Your GA nomination of Iga–Kōka alliance

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Books & Bytes – Issue 62

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Issue 62, March – April 2024

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Your GA nomination of Iga ikki

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It seems the review will take longer than I intended. Seeing as Ahendra is still actively adding content, I will postpone my review until after they are done. Merytat3n (talk) 21:42, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Ok!--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Iga ikki

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Your GA nomination of Kōka ikki

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Books & Bytes – Issue 63

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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Egypt school user templates

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Books & Bytes – Issue 64

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Always precious

Ten years ago, you were found precious. That's what you are, always. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:09, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Books & Bytes – Issue 65

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Nominations now open for the WikiProject Military history newcomer of the year and military historian of the year

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Symphony of Heaven

The more I look at it, the shakier it's looking. The most recent edit, the author of the source I removed was former/current band member. This band is from Indiana. A lot of edits other than logged-in edits by Metalworker14 are anonymous IP edits from the US State of Indiana. It's possible the band is actually NOT notable all many of these non-independent sources are there to mask the lack of notability or to present things in a way the band wants to present it. Do you feel this article has a successful chance of deletion with AfD? Graywalls (talk) 21:46, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

@Graywalls in the current state, absolutely it would get deleted. I would say to check and see if other, more clearly established/agreed, reliable or independent sources provide coverage - HM, Cross Rhythms, Jesus Freak Hideout, etc. if you're still not seeing anything, then absolutely go for it.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 22:33, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
As an aside, well done on catching that COI and paid editing. I think they'd been doing this in some capacity since at least 2014-15. Again, I have to go back and find the article, but I think Walter Görlitz (now blocked for sockpuppeting) I noticed something fishy and tagged the article with a COI notice. it's a shame that they ended up getting blocked for an unrelated disputed, because I think their input for both the Indie Vision Music discussion and this issue would have been very helpful. Ah, well, what's happened has happened. I appreciate that you've the galvanized me to get back into a bit of editing (I was actually working on a piece in my sandbox, which I paused on because I rely on Indie Vision Music for some of it). I'll try and help do some cleanup and tagging, I already got to a few articles from the Christian metal list.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 22:42, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
I've done a search, Graywalls, and I can only find two sources of good coverage - HM and The Metal Resource. Generally, at least three sources are needed to prove notability. I think it's safe to nominate for deletion, personally.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:07, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

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Tooth & Nail product catalog

I don't want to carry on an extensive one on one on the Afd but I am not understanding your ground for saying the list is notable. Something like the iPhone, the series of this product line is notable with a reliable source like this covering the line https://www.computerworld.com/article/1622162/evolution-of-apple-iphone.html however, what indication is there leading you to believe Tooth & Nails Discography is notable? Graywalls (talk) 16:38, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Graywalls there are multiple, non-trivial discussions in reliable sources about the album output (style, quantity, significance) of the label. One could create an article about that topic "Output of Tooth & Nail records".--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:41, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
basically, there is reliable source coverage about Tooth and Nail albums as a collective, similar to that Computer World article about iPhone generations.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
This doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that there's only sources for T&N as an organization? "there are reliable sources"... which are? Graywalls (talk) 19:03, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
@Graywalls no, I'm saying that not only are there sources for the organization, but some of those sources discuss the organization's output as a collective. 3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 19:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
@Graywalls by the way, regarding the Solid State deletion discussion, you are correct that NCORP applies to record labels. And it absolutely should.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 10:28, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

N BAND proposal

Hello, so I am getting a vibe that you don't want anyone else touching the proposal after I struck out two of the lines at Wikipedia:Band notability proposal. Is that a fair presentation? I'm not familiar with PROPOSALs but it's in the Wikipedia space rather than your personal user space, s I was of impression that anyone can work on it without anyone overruling anyone. Graywalls (talk) 21:25, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

@Graywalls I'm not very familiar with proposals but I don't think anyone should alter it because it's actively being discussed. I asked at the discussion page if I can go ahead with altering it if no vote has been taken, but no one has responded yet. So I'm just trying to be cautious and leave it untouched until it consensus is reached. 3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 21:46, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Then, why aren't you doing it in your user space? I STRONGLY object to the presence if item #5/#6 carried over from the existing text. Graywalls (talk) 21:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
@Graywalls because proposals are made in Wikipedia space. It's not a draft, it's a final proposal that I've submitted for discussion and vote. If you object to part of it, state that at the centralized discussion at Village pump (proposals) --3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 21:52, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
It's just something you went forward with, on your own terms with the discussion still going. Graywalls (talk) 21:54, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
@Graywalls no, the discussion is of the proposal I created. I suggest you read about how proposals are done, I followed that process. I did skip the drafting and feedback stage, which was perhaps not the best idea. If this one fails, you're welcome to propose another.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 22:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
I am looking at other proposals where multiple editors have worked on it. I'm just questioning whether you can keep others from editing it. Graywalls (talk) 22:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
@Graywalls I don't know. My concern is that if it's edited after people have voted, then there could be complaints that this is not actually what they supported.3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 22:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Schaliach

So, it does not show in talk page log, but when you look in the page log, it shows that it was closed alongside another AfD, then a re-direct was created, and you converted the re-direct into a page. So, given the deletion history may I suggest you try to submit the page through Article for Creation process? See: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Schaliach Graywalls (talk) 13:37, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

AfC is not required. I re-built the article from scratch. Since what was essentially a PROD was contested, challenge the article via the deletion process. Notability is demonstrated.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 13:38, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Note that that was a deletion discussion of Fleshkiller, not the Schaliach article as it stands.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 13:40, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
That's the page log for Schaliach. So why was it deleted? Graywalls (talk) 13:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
I don't know. But, the article now is a complete re-build by myself. It was not created by Metalwork14.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 14:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Also, the consensus was that Fleshiller at the time was not notable. It certainly was not salted or anything close to that.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 14:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
AfC says "Established users are encouraged to create articles on their own if they do not need support from reviewers." I've been an active editor on here for 14 years and have created hundreds of articles and have brought an article up to FA status. Respectfully, I think your prejudice against Metalworker14 (which is valid) is clouding your judgment here.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 13:42, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
You do realize that I was the first person to comment on that AfD, and recommended deleting Fleshkiller at that time? Do your due diligence and properly read through those discussions and ALSO check for sources. That's basic AfD etiquette.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 13:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Before you make assumptions about my judgment being clouded by who created the article, look at the supposedly "created from scratch" article. Just as a starter, it contained sourcing to a freaking personal website. Also, there's telltale sign of notability bombing, like has been compared with big name, another big name, yet another big name... by borderline internet fanzine from the early 2000s/late 90s when simply being a printed publication was an indication of something. So those things were taken into account of doubtful notability. Graywalls (talk) 14:07, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
The "a freaking personal website" is by a professional music journalist, and is mentioned multiple reliable sources including an academic book. And that's one source.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 14:17, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
The names mentioned are the sonic comparisons, they aren't name-dropping.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 14:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
@Graywalls I created the article, you know you can just ask me about these things, right?--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 14:20, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Voting is now open for the WikiProject Military History newcomer of the year and military historian of the year awards

Voting is now open for the WikiProject Military History newcomer of the year and military historian of the year awards for 2024! The top editors will be awarded the coveted Gold Wiki. Cast your votes here and here respectively. Voting closes at 23:59 on 30 December 2024. On behalf of the coordinators, wishing you the very best for the festive season and the new year. MediaWiki message delivery via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:58, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Metalworker14

I seem to vaguely recall conflict of interest concerns involving them came up sometime in the past, before the most recent concerns in the last few months. Right? Do you happen to remember where if so? Graywalls (talk) 03:54, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

@Graywalls There was one, but I'd have to dig through their article creations.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 10:02, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
They've asked about where a COI concern about them has came up before. I'm not totally certain, but I vaguely recall there was a discussion (long before I became involved on this matter) that commented on their potential COI. Does that sound about right? Graywalls (talk) 17:58, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
@Graywalls maybe. I've been trying to look into this myself.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:00, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Phantom Tollbooth source

Hey, just picking your brain on this - what are your thoughts on The Phantom Tollbooth as a source? I'm reworking an article that uses it as a source (Conspiracy No. 5), but frankly I'm not sure it passes muster from an editorial standpoint. Take a look at it here - three reviews, and it seems kinda amateurish. Today it just seems like a blog. Is there a cutoff point for reliability? Toa Nidhiki05 03:12, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

@Toa Nidhiki05 this one I've presumed was reliable because it was listed at the Christian music sources before I was active as an editor, over 14 years ago. Functionally I don't see how it's any different from other sites deemed reliable, as it had a site operator and joint editorial staff with other people underneath. I was thinking today about how I don't think I've ever actually looked into use by others of this source. But I don't see a reason to automatically reject it. I guess it's a question of do you think that these reviews are going to improve the article at all?--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 03:32, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
Fair enough! I don't think I'll be using it in the improved article - the reviews don't add much here, aside from emphasizing how much they think Mac Powell sounds like Eddie Vedder and Third Day sounds like Pearl Jam - but I looked in archive and they did have some decently impressive interviews. Just curious, since I've never actually used it for anything and rarely seen it ever used. Toa Nidhiki05 03:37, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
@Toa Nidhiki05 "and rarely seen it ever used" - you don't read my articles, then, lol (I don't mind) 3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 03:49, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
Lol, to be fair I've taken a few years break from CCM articles so maybe I just forgot. Toa Nidhiki05 04:32, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
@Toa Nidhiki05 I've also not been that active anymore --3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 13:09, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
@Toa Nidhiki05 ah, so I rediscovered that Powell references them in his 2002 encyclopedia, and calls them and True Tunes the best internet sites (at that time). I think this is one reason why I haven't seen issues with using them.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:21, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
Ah, that definitely helps then. Toa Nidhiki05 20:35, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Outing allegation

3family6, I have checked with an admin and oversight concerning the allegation you have made at Special:Diff/1261885855 out of abundance of caution and no wrongdoing on my part was found and I feel you may need to very carefully read "exceptions" in WP:OUTING Graywalls (talk) 23:18, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

@Graywalls if you checked and no wrong doing was found, that's good enough for me.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 23:20, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
3family6, outing is a serious violation, so you need to be careful before you go around implicating others of doing such as you did to me. Graywalls (talk) 23:23, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
I understand. My concern was the discussion of the IP address of the user. I did read through the policy and thought carefully. I'm glad that nothing came of this, and I will remember this for if I encounter a similar future situation.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 23:27, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
Sorry, need to add: to be clear, I don't believe you were intentionally trying to harass the account and I'm glad that it was not deemed a case of outing. I acted out of an abundance of caution myself.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 23:32, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

The Signpost: 12 December 2024

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