Template:Did you know nominations/Vladyslav Gorai
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 12:29, 24 June 2025 (UTC)
| DYK toolbox |
|---|
Vladyslav Gorai
... that Vladyslav Gorai portrayed the Duke in Verdi's Rigoletto at the Odesa Opera and in Italy, and toured with repertoire of the Three Jerusalem Tenors in the United States and Macau?Source: several- Reviewed: Bohlenia
- Comment: trying to give an idea of performing in the world and wide repertoire - suggestions welcome - wish we could show the image -- it's so sad
Created by Максим Огородник (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk).
Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2145 past nominations.
Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:27, 16 June 2025 (UTC).
The article meets DYK requirements: it is new enough, long enough, and adequately sourced. It is free from close paraphrasing, and a QPQ has been done. The article appeared on Recent deaths so it remains DYK eligible. However, the hook as currently written fails WP:DYKINT: it is unlikely to be perceived as interesting to readers who are unfamiliar with opera or classical music. Considering how this specific kind of hook was called out in the current discussion over at WT:DYK regarding hook quality, this hook would be unlikely to survive scrutiny if it was brought up there. As such, a new hook is needed here.
- Gerda, I understand what you are trying to get here in showing that he performed at a wide variety of venues during his career, but considering recent sentiment has led to pushback against specialist hooks, this is not the best option. I know this suggestion is going to anger you, but it might be better to write a hook about how he died during a relief operation, as that is the most interesting fact about him in the article and the one that best meets DYKINT. Otherwise, maybe a hook about him working as a volunteer or being involved in relief efforts. I imagine if Gorai is brought up to WT:DYK and got further scrutiny, the relief angle (either his death or his volunteer work) would be the option consensus favors. Other than that, I'm not seeing anything else that would meet DYKINT, so if you do not propose a new hook (I am explicitly rejecting ALT0's angle), this nomination may be failed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:28, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- It's sad - depressing - angering enough that he died, we don't have to make that the only thing "interesting" about him. The Duke is a well-known womanizer, ask 4meter4, and for the others, The Three Jerusalem Tenors have nothing to do with opera. This man performed in the world, and I'd like to let that be known, not only that he died. His home opera in Odesa deserves to be mentioned, not that he died. Did you listen to him in the video. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:38, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- Gerda, you are taking things too seriously and being too attached to him. Ultimately, what is important here are the guidelines, and you are not following the guidelines. The guidelines say that hooks must be likely to be perceived as unusual or interesting by non-specialist readers. The guidelines do not care about your feelings and emotions. You have to follow them if you want the nomination to pass, and the best way to do that is to propose a hook that meets DYKINT. If you are unwilling to propose a hook that meets DYKINT, then you can always withdraw the nomination. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:46, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- It's sad - depressing - angering enough that he died, we don't have to make that the only thing "interesting" about him. The Duke is a well-known womanizer, ask 4meter4, and for the others, The Three Jerusalem Tenors have nothing to do with opera. This man performed in the world, and I'd like to let that be known, not only that he died. His home opera in Odesa deserves to be mentioned, not that he died. Did you listen to him in the video. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:38, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
ALT1 ... that Vladyslav Gorai, one of the greatest opera singers in Ukraine, died during the Russo-Ukrainian War while rescuing civilians?
- @Viriditas: I would actually be willing to approve that, the issue is that "greatest opera singers" is not supported in the article body. Maybe you can revise the description to better match the article? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:10, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- ALT1a: ... that opera singer Vladyslav Gorai died while rescuing civilians during the Russo-Ukrainian War?
- @Viriditas: Actually, the article and hook may need adjustment: none of the sources in the article actually say how he died, and I'm not sure if there have been updates since then. Apparently, someone (possibly a relative) tried to edit the article and said that he was actually killed in a car accident than rather during fighting, although they provided no source. The wording you proposed suggests he was killed during the fighting, when the article and sources do not say that. The hook has to be modified to omit any implication of how he died, unless a source could be found that confirms his cause of death. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:19, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- [removed family stuff] Sources: "Odessa Opera tenor Vladyslav Gorai died during a volunteer mission in the Sumy region, rescuing civilians in a zone of heavy shelling."[1]; "Tenor Vladislav Gorai...died on Sunday while engaged in a volunteer mission in the northern region of Sumy bordering Russia...Russia moved further into Sumy last week, threatening the regional capital in a dual advance with fierce frontline fighting and relentless missile and drone attacks."[2] Viriditas (talk) 22:32, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- @Viriditas: Well, in any case, the article will need to change "passing" to "death" per WP:EUPHEMISM, and maybe the hook should use "died" rather than "killed" since the sources don't actually say exactly how he died. "Killed" would suggest that he died due to the fighting, which is not clear in the references (even Reuters said they could not independently confirm his cause of death). Considering "greatest opera singers" is a bit of an exceptional claim, I think a modified ALT1a would still be the best option. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:34, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- I removed the family stuff I said because I found this and it looks like it was partly correct: He "was one of the outstanding tenors of Ukraine, who constantly improved his professional skills. Together with his wife, Nadiya worked in the opera house. Raised two sons. He was the title of Honored Artist of Ukraine...died on June 8 in the Sumy region during a volunteer mission to transfer another car for the needs of the Armed Forces of Ukraine...In his last volunteer mission, they carried the cars to the front line. He didn't like to talk about these things. He only said that he was going to Sumy region and that they were distilling cars. That's all I know. He has been volunteering since the beginning of the war. He did not need to have a volunteer certificate or a diploma. He did not admit it all, because he did everything from the heart. He said that he had guys there to help." Viriditas (talk) 22:38, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- @Viriditas: Okay. Maybe add that to the article, then change "was killed" in ALT1a to "died"? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:40, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- I will try. Viriditas (talk) 22:42, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- @Viriditas: Thank you. I will approve ALT1a once the part about the car transfer thing is added to the article. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:49, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- I will try. Viriditas (talk) 22:42, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- @Viriditas: Okay. Maybe add that to the article, then change "was killed" in ALT1a to "died"? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:40, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- I removed the family stuff I said because I found this and it looks like it was partly correct: He "was one of the outstanding tenors of Ukraine, who constantly improved his professional skills. Together with his wife, Nadiya worked in the opera house. Raised two sons. He was the title of Honored Artist of Ukraine...died on June 8 in the Sumy region during a volunteer mission to transfer another car for the needs of the Armed Forces of Ukraine...In his last volunteer mission, they carried the cars to the front line. He didn't like to talk about these things. He only said that he was going to Sumy region and that they were distilling cars. That's all I know. He has been volunteering since the beginning of the war. He did not need to have a volunteer certificate or a diploma. He did not admit it all, because he did everything from the heart. He said that he had guys there to help." Viriditas (talk) 22:38, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- @Viriditas: Well, in any case, the article will need to change "passing" to "death" per WP:EUPHEMISM, and maybe the hook should use "died" rather than "killed" since the sources don't actually say exactly how he died. "Killed" would suggest that he died due to the fighting, which is not clear in the references (even Reuters said they could not independently confirm his cause of death). Considering "greatest opera singers" is a bit of an exceptional claim, I think a modified ALT1a would still be the best option. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:34, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- [removed family stuff] Sources: "Odessa Opera tenor Vladyslav Gorai died during a volunteer mission in the Sumy region, rescuing civilians in a zone of heavy shelling."[1]; "Tenor Vladislav Gorai...died on Sunday while engaged in a volunteer mission in the northern region of Sumy bordering Russia...Russia moved further into Sumy last week, threatening the regional capital in a dual advance with fierce frontline fighting and relentless missile and drone attacks."[2] Viriditas (talk) 22:32, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- @Viriditas: Actually, the article and hook may need adjustment: none of the sources in the article actually say how he died, and I'm not sure if there have been updates since then. Apparently, someone (possibly a relative) tried to edit the article and said that he was actually killed in a car accident than rather during fighting, although they provided no source. The wording you proposed suggests he was killed during the fighting, when the article and sources do not say that. The hook has to be modified to omit any implication of how he died, unless a source could be found that confirms his cause of death. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:19, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- ALT1b: ... that opera singer Vladyslav Gorai was a Merited Artist of Ukraine who died in June 2025 while rescuing civilians during the Russo-Ukrainian War?
@@Viriditas: and Narutolovehinata5 I think this makes readers understand he was a major national artist, and that his death relates to current events. It's also verifiable. Best.4meter4 (talk) 22:50, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- A newer source dated 12 June (about his memorial) explains that he died in the course of volunteer work delivering vehicles and materiel to the Ukrainian military at the front. It appears he had been doing this for some time according to soloist Dmitry Pavlyuk. Viriditas (talk) 22:54, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)
Okay, here is what I will do. Right now, both ALT1a and ALT1b's current wordings are supported in the article since neither are reliant on the car transfer death being mentioned. Him dying while rescuing civilians (regardless of how he died) is verified in the sources and is interesting to a broad audience. As such, I'm approving ALT1a and ALT1b and will leave the final decision to the promoter. I understand that this will disappoint Gerda given her opposition to a hook about his death, but honestly, his death is probably the only thing in the article that stands out as being interesting to a broad, non-specialist audience. If 4meter4 doesn't mind, I invite him to explain this point to Gerda so she could understand. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:54, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5 Not to quibble, but I find hook ALT1a boring. I know a lot of opera singers. Like any profession we have exceptional people and more normal people working. I for example am (well was as I don't perform anymore) a normal opera singer without much name recognition. I'm a nobody. Gorai on the other hand was a somebody. The Merited Artist of Ukraine is the highest award given in the arts in the Ukraine. It's like being awarded the National Medal of Arts or an Academy Award in the United States. It's an important national honor in the Ukraine. It makes the hook far more interesting to include that fact. Best.4meter4 (talk) 23:03, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- @4meter4: Touche, although I was specifically talking about the point about why a hook about his volunteer work and death would be more interesting to a general reader than a hook about his performances in Rigoletto and touring with the Three Jerusalem Tenors (who don't even have an article). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:05, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- Waking up to this: Thank you for thinking about it and for expanding the article. Repeating: wanting to focus on his (or any subject) activity in life, and not death where they are a victim, is not caused by emotional attachment, but a conscious decision. Mentioning the award is fine, but alone doesn't tell for what, nor international activity: nothing specific for this person. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:35, 21 June 2025 (UTC)
- A major national award is attention grabbing and a significant national artist dying while trying to save others is surprising. It's an ideal hook per WP:DYKHOOKSTYLE. The other content you wish to feature requires too much special knowledge, and does not meet the criteria at DYKHOOKSTYLE.4meter4 (talk) 16:39, 21 June 2025 (UTC)
- I doubt that the average reader will recognize this as a "major" award (and looking at this list several singers of that opera house seem to have received it), and - repeating: it says nothing beyond national merits, no voice type, no specific contribution. - It would leave me cold. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:46, 21 June 2025 (UTC)
- Well you aren't the typical reader.4meter4 (talk) 21:12, 21 June 2025 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt:, can you either withdraw the nomination or give your approval for ALT1b to run? Thanks, ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:58, 24 June 2025 (UTC)
- I tolerate it. I believe firmly that we shouldn't spend the few characters on his death (or the death of any other who recently died). People interested in his death read the article already while he was exposed as RD]. We don't serve readers well who are interested in his life. However, I would tolerate it in the interest of making him known a bit more, even knowing that readers interested in his life may miss it. I propose to say "tenor" or "operatic tenor" because "opera singer" compares to saying "ball player" without distinguishing tennis and baseball. Its probably asking too much to wish to also locate him at the exceptional opera house (read last para if you have little time). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:22, 24 June 2025 (UTC)
- I doubt that the average reader will recognize this as a "major" award (and looking at this list several singers of that opera house seem to have received it), and - repeating: it says nothing beyond national merits, no voice type, no specific contribution. - It would leave me cold. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:46, 21 June 2025 (UTC)
- A major national award is attention grabbing and a significant national artist dying while trying to save others is surprising. It's an ideal hook per WP:DYKHOOKSTYLE. The other content you wish to feature requires too much special knowledge, and does not meet the criteria at DYKHOOKSTYLE.4meter4 (talk) 16:39, 21 June 2025 (UTC)
- Waking up to this: Thank you for thinking about it and for expanding the article. Repeating: wanting to focus on his (or any subject) activity in life, and not death where they are a victim, is not caused by emotional attachment, but a conscious decision. Mentioning the award is fine, but alone doesn't tell for what, nor international activity: nothing specific for this person. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:35, 21 June 2025 (UTC)
- @4meter4: Touche, although I was specifically talking about the point about why a hook about his volunteer work and death would be more interesting to a general reader than a hook about his performances in Rigoletto and touring with the Three Jerusalem Tenors (who don't even have an article). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:05, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5 Not to quibble, but I find hook ALT1a boring. I know a lot of opera singers. Like any profession we have exceptional people and more normal people working. I for example am (well was as I don't perform anymore) a normal opera singer without much name recognition. I'm a nobody. Gorai on the other hand was a somebody. The Merited Artist of Ukraine is the highest award given in the arts in the Ukraine. It's like being awarded the National Medal of Arts or an Academy Award in the United States. It's an important national honor in the Ukraine. It makes the hook far more interesting to include that fact. Best.4meter4 (talk) 23:03, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)
- A newer source dated 12 June (about his memorial) explains that he died in the course of volunteer work delivering vehicles and materiel to the Ukrainian military at the front. It appears he had been doing this for some time according to soloist Dmitry Pavlyuk. Viriditas (talk) 22:54, 20 June 2025 (UTC)
