Talk:M4 motorway/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Welsh and English flags

There is no need for these flags to be used, they are purely decorative. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:40, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

You, as an American, are welcome to your own opinion. This is Wikipedia though, and someone who is self-styled as The Enforcer has no place here apparently interfering just for the sake of it. Regards –
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones |The Welsh Buzzard| 09:34, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

The M4 has two distinct parts - the English part and the Welsh part. The flags assist the reader in quickly seeing the break-point between the two. I know that it is written in the text, but this RJL has almost 50 junctions, not to mention services etc, making a "half-way marker" desireable. Martinvl (talk) 11:18, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I support retaining the flags. There are differences in terms of responsibility between those lengths of the motorway in Wales and those in England, and the flags assist readers in showing where the division of responsibility lies. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:55, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

PS: I've now added a couple of sentences to explain this. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:15, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

No different than the change of maintenance between the Indiana Department of Transportation and the Michigan Department of Transportation on U.S. Route 131 at the state line. The flags are unnecessary and should go. Imzadi 1979 → 14:03, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

We could add the county flags for each junction too. No the flags are not needed and should go.--Charles (talk) 14:08, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Irrespective of whether or not the flags stay or go, those last two posts clearly fail to understand government administration in the UK. We are not talking about sub-national administrative divisions, we are talking about different countries (albeit within a single sovereign state), each of which has responsibility for different parts of the route (which counties do not). Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:25, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Indiana and Michigan are separate U.S. states, each co-sovereign with the federal government in a federal arrangement; they are not just "sub-national administrative divisions". Each state is responsible for its own highway systems, meaning its very much a similar situation to this one, and no flags are necessary to decorate that border. Imzadi 1979 → 14:34, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

England and Wales are likewise each responsible for their own transport systems - the Highways Agency and Traffic Wales. Martinvl (talk) 15:55, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that's really in dispute. The point is, why do we need the nationalist pride flag emblems at 37pt when we already have the names of the countries? Flags are not needed. (Incidentally, I see "Traffic Wales" has no article and is not actually mentioned in the prose at all. Perhaps that's something Welsh editors or similarly interested editors could address?) The Rambling Man (talk) 16:13, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Traffic Wales is just an information site. The Welsh Government's transport responsibilities, including responsibilities for its motorway maintenance, are handled by one of its internal departments. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:57, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Once again, not the point really. We're talking about the decorative flags. No doubt the M4 goes between England and Wales, but it also goes between Monmouthshire and Avon. Yet we don't denote those. I think the words "England" and "Wales" do an adequate job and MOSFLAG recommends we don't just sprinkle these decorations willy-nilly. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:48, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't addressing your "point" - I was correcting the suggestion that Traffic Wales should have its own article. It shouldn't. By the way, Avon hasn't existed as an administrative area for 17 years. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:26, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm so grateful you corrected me, thank you! I'm sure this now explains why the Welsh flag and the St George Cross should be used on this list...... shurely?! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:45, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I haven't made any comment on that issue for nine hours. Many other comments in this thread are ill-informed and/or provocative (verging on offensive), so I've corrected them, to the extent that I can be bothered. For what it's worth, I think the flags are not "purely decorative" - they are helpful guidance. But, as others say, WP:MOS suggests otherwise. Shrug. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:56, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Bummer, isn't it? MOS says otherwise, this is a MOS issue. We shouldn't be using these flags, as demonstrated by those editors who have commented here. So let's remove them (but obviously keep the real info, i.e. England and Wales....) The Rambling Man (talk) 22:07, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Tee hee! Gareth, I note you state "You, as an American, are welcome to your own opinion." which I guess is aimed at me. How little you know! (Are you actually a bird?) And yet you show distinct tinges of being from across the pond, demonstrating a stereotypical inability to detect irony! But thanks so much for your misguided opinions! In other news, there is no need for these flags, as adequately explained above. Next we'll be putting county flags.... goodness me, this is still Great Britain we're talking about, unless of course the flags are there as some indicator of national pride? The Rambling Man (talk) 15:44, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I was misled by this, "Hopefully, as an outside observer, you'll ultimately be more successful. Keep it up!" —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 8:30 pm, Yesterday (UTC+0) — yesterday on your Talk page. Either way you are "something else" when it comes to administrators on Wikipedia! –
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones |The Welsh Buzzard| 19:35, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I sure am. I'm the "enforcer", I'm that kind of bad-ass guy that needs to own everything I do.... YEAH! Not really. I'm just a guy, standing in front of a girl, telling her I love her, etc. I just want decent outcomes that hopefully align our presentation of these kinds of things throughout all of Wikipedia. If all this negativity is drawn from the Six Nations, I don't stand a chance.........! The Rambling Man (talk) 19:45, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Ha, ha! Well said! Not so sure about any "negativity" though ... not on my watch. We have to look at the inclusion (or not) of the little flags as to whether or not they assist the reader from other parts of this planet. Surely that is the whole point of the project as a whole. Symmetry is important and I desire it up to a point, but not at the expense of loss of clarification –
 – Gareth Griffith-Jones |The Welsh Buzzard| 20:03, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, you know what, I've been advocating the lovely graphics for motorway symbology, both M-roads and A-roads, and then I arrogantly show up and say "let's not have national flags". Now, I've thought about it a bit more since, and consider that we have MOSFLAG and all that jazz, and we already denote the border between England and the other place with words like "England" and "Wales", and I'm still not entirely convinced that showing flags will help our readers. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:42, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I think Imzadi1979 is mistaken when he says that the change between Indiana and Michigan on U.S. Route 131 is the same as that between England and Wales on the M4. The situation is similar, but I don't think US State Flags have the same significance as national flags. Also Charles' suggestion to "add the county flags for each junction too" seems to be a complete straw man. But perhaps Rambling Man can show us exactly where the relevant advice lies in the WP:MOS? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:23, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

See MOSFLAG - the use here is purely decorative, and by the looks of things (certainly from those editors here), nationalistic pride issues. Why do we need a 37-point flag when the word "Wales" and the word "England" imparts the same information? The various straw man arguments made about "Traffic Wales" etc have no influence whatsoever on whether or not we should be putting flags on road lists. Thanks!! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:11, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

I can see this an old thread, but there is very strong argument for the flags (or text) to denote the Anglo Welsh border. (Personally I'd prefer flags, they are easier and quicker to understand, but I see how people from outside the UK context may not be familiar with them).

The reason why I think the emphasising the Anglo Welsh border is responsibility for the motorway is divided along that border. It is not merely a matter of administration, (who fills in the pot holes) it is smarter of policy making (e.g. who decides whether to there should be a smart motorway). As for the the comparison with the USA. Perhaps state flags would serve a purpose on similar articles there. However a potential difference with American motorways is that the Interstate system is a 'federal' one, whereas in the UK responsibility for the motorways are devolved. Fourthedit (talk) 16:06, 22 January 2023 (UTC)