The contents of Azerbaijani pakhlava was merged into Baklava on 25 January 2020. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. For the discussion at that location, see its talk page.
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Important note:Please do not modify any information as to the origins of baklava without first seeking consensus on the talk page. You might also try to peruse the archives on the right to get an idea of the discussions that have taken place on this subject in the past and the consensus reached.
I find it hard to believe that there is really any genuine confusion between the two terms. This seems like some sort of joke. I see no discussion in Talk archives. Thoughts? --Macrakis (talk) 21:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen restaurant menus make this mistake, but I'm not sure that counts. They are spelled similarly enough in English that someone might mix them up. - Sumanuil. (talk to me)21:41, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
you said that I should bring my issue to the talk page, so what is your problem with removing ottoman language translation? Also, the newly made edit by someone whos name i dont remmeber added origin cathegory, which doesnt at all make sense, since Its origin is debated and no consencus has been reached. 93.199.244.40 (talk) 08:10, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Origin" in a food article denote the first mention of the dish in the known form, not the place where the earliest first ancestor of the dish is attested. For example, origin of pizza is not Middle East, but Naples. Origin of Carbonara, which is also a dish with several theories about its origin, is Rome, since it was first mentioned there. Back to baklava, none of the three main theories about the origin of the dish (Rome/Greece, Central Asia and Iran) mentions the Ottoman Empire, but none of these proposed 'ancestors' resemble modern baklava. They are different dishes, which haven't much to do with today's sweet. What we know for sure, is that the first documented mention of Baklava as we know it is ottoman, as a sweet prepared in Topkapi. So, this is its "origin". If one day researchers will find an earlier mention (for example, in a byzantine cookbook) of baklava in today's form, we will change the "origin" field accordingly, but this would most probably not solve the problem of its ancestor. About the ottoman name, since the dish is ottoman, and the etymology is ottoman, it belongs to the lead. Removing it is disruptive editing. Alex2006 (talk) 10:15, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong. Carbonara and Pizza can definetly be located to Italy, dates on flatbread isnt at all something like pizza. Carbonara also has a Italic origin. Baklava tho, is contested and has many theories on Its origin, the topkapi palace isnt that often seen as its origin. Unlike the examples you brought up, the Ancient Greek and Byzantine Placenta was much like Baklava, as was the older plakous version, Imma cite to you from the text of this article so u can understand:
Many claim that the placenta, and therefore likely baklava derived from a recipe from Ancient Greece. Homer's Odyssey, written around 800 BC, mentions thin breads sweetened with walnuts and honey. In the fifth century BC, Philoxenos states in his poem "Dinner" that, in the final drinking course of a meal, hosts would prepare and serve cheesecake made with milk and honey that was baked into a pie.
The word "placenta" originally comes from the Greek language plakous (πλακοῦς), which means something "flat and broad". An early Greek language mention of plakous as a dessert (or second table delicacy) comes from the poems of Archestratos. He describes plakous as served with nuts or dried fruits and commends the honey-drenched Athenian version of plakous.Antiphanes, a contemporary of Archestratos, provided an ornate description of plakous:
The streams of the tawny bee, mixed with the curdled river of bleating she-goats, placed upon a flat receptacle of the virgin daughter of Demeter [honey, cheese, flour], delighting in ten thousand delicate toppings – or shall I simply say plakous?
I'm for plakous.
— In the Byzantine Empire, the traditional placenta cake (known as "koptoplakous", κοπτοπλακοῦς), a dish similar to baklava, was consumed. The earliest known detailed recipe for placenta, from the 2nd century BC, is a honey-covered baked layered-dough dessert which food historian Patrick Faas identifies as the origin of baklava.
Historian Andrew Dalby speculates as to why Cato's section on bread and cakes, which he describes as "recipes in a Greek tradition", are included in De Agricultura: "Possibly Cato included them so that the owner and guests might be entertained when visiting the farm; possibly so that proper offerings might be made to the gods; more likely, I believe, so that profitable sales might be made at a neighbouring market."
Cato's original recipe for placenta follows:
Shape the placenta as follows: place a single row of tracta along the whole length of the base dough. This is then covered with the mixture [cheese and honey] from the mortar. Place another row of tracta on top and go on doing so until all the cheese and honey have been used up. Finish with a layer of tracta. ... place the placenta in the oven and put a preheated lid on top of it ... When ready, honey is poured over the placenta.
— According to a number of scholars, koptoplakous(κοπτοπλακοῦς) was a precursor to the modern baklava. Historian Speros Vryonisdescribes koptoplakous as a "Byzantine favorite" and "the same as the Turkish baklava", as do other writers. The name (Greek: πλατσέντα) is used today on the island of Lesbos for thin layered pastry leaves with crushed nuts, baked, and covered in syrup.
Now as you can see, many food historians identify it as the origin of baklava and as you also cans ee, the recipes are similar, especially the first one of the 8th century before christ.
This means that there is no consensus that baklava was founded in the topkapi palace. Therefore the Ottoman origin should be removed from infobox.
The ottoman translation is useless as well. The transltion already is written in etymology part and has therefore no reason to be in the beginning too, also the etymology part explains that Its origin is contested, as It could be of mongolian, turkic persian or a mixed origin. So the etymology part also doesnt say that the word originates from ottoman turkish and even if there are other names for the dessert and It already is mentioned in etynology part. Also, why was my reply deleted? I just answered him and try to discuss with him on how to better this page…..
Sorry, I didn't see this message. I don't think that there is much to discuss here. I already explained above what we mean by "origin" of a dish in wikipedia. This is the place where the dish has been first attested in today's form. Placenta and baklava are quite different stuffs. There is a theory that says that baklava derives from placenta, and this is covered in the article, but this make placenta a possible precursor of baklava, not the "origin". Of course, if someone bring a RS with an ancient recipe of placenta (like that in Cato) similar to baklava, we can change the field, but until now this was not the case. For sure, Cato's recipe ( which incidentally I realized some years ago according to Andrew Dalby interpretation) describes a layer cake, so we are miles away from baklava. Central Asia layer cakes are much more similar to today's baklava, but they are different too. A last word about some of the sources brought above: in food history, apodictic statements bring nothing. If a scholar says something without referencing it with a source, this reflects only his/her opinion, nothing more. Bye, Alex2006 (talk) 18:39, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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Turkey
Soguk Baklava is a modern variation of traditional baklava, served chilled and topped with milk and cocoa powder. This refreshing version is especially popular in Turkey during the summer months. Cajuntavuk (talk) 03:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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When discussing the possible dishs for the pre-Ottoman Baklava it mentions the Lauzinaj as medieval Persian (Iranian) dish even it's actually from medieval Arab cuisine and the source that's used to backup it's persian is the Encyclopedia of Jewish Food which doesn't have anything to do with Persian cuisine or Arab cuisine. Omnicorrector (talk) 17:21, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 04:20, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
Note: I tagged the dubious claim. M.Bitton (talk) 21:55, 19 February 2025 (UTC)
Already done Omnicorrector, it seems M.Bitton has addressed this request. As of now you are currently autoconfirmed, which means you can now edit semi-protected articles such as this one. Feel free to edit it further. Keep in mind our policies on reliable sources and maintaining a neutral point of view. Happy editing! —Sirdog (talk) 22:23, 13 March 2025 (UTC)
