Talk:Udagbedo/GA2

GA review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: Vanderwaalforces (talk · contribs) 11:20, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

Reviewer: Jens Lallensack (talk · contribs) 00:42, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Interesting topic. Reading now:

• Oba Edoni – link in lead (even if its a red link)
  • @Jens Lallensack: thank you so much for picking this review up, I did this.
• and established early trade links with Saharan states as well as, indirectly, with later European traders. – I do not understand the "later" here. They were not yet traders at the time when he established the trade links, or what does that mean?
  • In the Reign section, there's a sentence Although his reign occurred before direct contact with Europeans, his economic policies laid the foundation for later trade with Portugal and other European powers in the 15th century. Does this help clarify? --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:14, 25 April 2025 (UTC)
• His reign is noted as the earliest recorded period – remove unnecessary fluff
  • done.
• Concurrently, Benin’s trade networks were strengthened under his leadership, especially with states in the Sahara. – Where does the source say that trade networs where strenghtened with states in the Sahara?
  • Walker 2006, p. 336. says In an earlier period, Benin’s trade links were with the Saharan states to the north. They exported ivory, pepper and cotton goods in exchange for Saharan copper and Sudanese horses., do you think there's better way of writing this? I mean, there's definitely a better way, please help. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:14, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

  BTW, I have this now Concurrently, Benin maintained trade networks with states in the Sahara, exchanging ivory, pepper, and cotton textiles for horses and copper, do you think this is better? Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:15, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

• Remove the word "notable" from the article. This is superfluous and does not help; if it wouldn't be notable we would not mention it in the first place.
  • done.
• After his death, Agbodo’s sons conducted a ritual in which they placed a magical stone upon his chest, causing his body to sink into the ground.[4] In response to this breach of custom, Udagbedo ordered an excavation; however, Agbodo’s remains were never recovered, and a pond eventually formed at the site, later known as Agbodo pond. – are you recalling a legend here? It this is a legend rather than a fact, it should be marked as such.
  • I honestly do not think this is a legend, at least according to the source.
• Between 1935 and 1937, Oba Akenzua II oversaw the filling of the pond, which had long stood as a historical landmark. – Why was it filled? Why is that relevant? Context is missing here.
  • I agree that context is missing as to why he decided to fill it, who knows? especially since this was all the source gave. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:14, 25 April 2025 (UTC)
• resulting in artworks that were highly valued – again fluff that does not add anything and can be removed (you already have the word "mastery", which should be enough).
  • I rephrased.
• My main question here is: How do we know about this ruler? What are the historical sources, and how reliable are they? If possible, I highly recommend the inclusion of a "Sources" section (which should be the first section) to point that out. I also ask this because I am concerned because the article appears to blend historical facts with ledgends, making me wonder if this is based on primary historical sources rather than scholarly sources. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 00:42, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

  @Jens Lallensack There is already a "Sources" subsection within the References section, and most of the sources are scholarly/historical. Mostly based on Eghareva's A Short History of Benin, and Walker's When We Ruled, both authors are reliable authors whose works I have also used in my previous GAs of Benin history. I also, as I stated above, do not think these are legends but facts. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:20, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Closing note: Regrettably, and after much consideration, I decided that I have to fail this. The main source A Short History of Benin seems to be an historical primary source rather than a secondary scholarly source and can't be taken at fact value (the wp article itself states that it is unreliable). Particularly concerning is the apparent mixing of facts with legends in that source, which you took over to the WP article. I understand that you disagree, but a magical stone causing the body to sink into the earth where it magically disappeared cannot be considered a fact unless we believe in magic. We cannot assume that this source reflects consensus among historians, and it should be replaced by secondary sources wherever possible. Where this is not possible, we need author attribution (e.g., "In his 1968 book, Uwadiae states that …"), after the book and all its shortcomings were properly introduced, ideally in a separate "Sources" section at the beginning of the article (I here refer to the sources our knowledge of this Oba is based on, such as oral traditions, archaeological evidence (if any), writings, etc; not the sources used to write this Wikipedia article). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 12:47, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.