Talk:The Ink Spots

Joe Versus the Vlocano

For the Cultural Use section, I believe their song "I Cover the Waterfron" was used in Joe Versus the Volcano. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CS42 (talk • contribs) 21:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Citation for Claim

The claim that the Ink Spots were the first African-Americans on television is a massive claim but one that seems to lack any citation. Indeed, I see the same claim made on a few other sites but none of them that I saw actually cite where this claim came from. When I search for the first African-American on TV, I find most reputable sources cite Ethel Waters in 1939 instead, stating specifically what broadcast she was on.

I don't want to remove this sentence since I can't prove they weren't on TV three years before Waters in 1936 but I think we need to have a citation here or we may just be spreading an urban myth. Katosepe321 (talk) 06:18, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

After a bit more research, I find this claim especially dubious considering this would have been the same year Bill Kenny joined and several years before their first major hit that defined their style. Still, I'd like to wait and see if I or someone else can determine where this claim came from. Katosepe321 (talk) 06:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Someone else added a citation so I did more research into that citation and was able to find the context for this claim. I added more detail so this should now be verifiable for others as well. Katosepe321 (talk) 19:16, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Additional members

As per this revision of the article, I've since removed the Additional members section claiming a William Bowen and George Bledsoe to be from the group.

William Bowen:

The cited article from the New York Times claims a William Bowens replaced Deek Watson after the latter's departure, which would correlate with Billy Bowen's timeline. After a quick search, I found this article by UPI written just two days before the New York Times article, with the exact same story except the name "William Bowen" was replaced with "Billy Bowen". This would therefore indicate that the two Bowens were in fact the exact same person.

George Bledsoe:

Both the cited article and an article by UPI talks of a George Bledsoe from the Ink Spots. However, both sources also mentions Stanley Morgan as the leader of "The Ink Spots" that Bledsoe was part of. Morgan was in fact not the leader or member of the legitimate Ink Spots group, but rather an imitation of the group formed by Morgan himself. The line "The Ink Spots were created in 1929 by Deek Watson" present in both articles, suggesting that Bledsoe was part of the legitimate Ink Spots group, is most likely a factual error as a result of blatant lack of research by the authors. George13lol2 (talk) 03:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

The Ink Spots Article is Inaccurate or Incomplete

The term "Ink Spots" has been and remains a registered trademark since 1984. It initially was owned by the Hanover Group, Inc. because of its agreements with Jim Nabbie, who succeeded Bill Kenny as lead singer in 1945. Nabbie, was leading the group when the trademark application was filed. The name has remained registered since 1984, with the sworn application serving as uncontested vidence of ownership to date. Pursuant to the USPTO, the mark is INCONTESTABLE at this time.

• Declaration of COI: I declare I have a Conflict of Interest. I have represented the Ink Spots above as counsel, and written songs and produced recordings with them. Kindly correct the article, or make it more complete ASAP. In the event this is a problem, kindly advise here. Thank you in advance.This disclaimer appeared in connection with this article prior to Drmies comment (the edit was for style) JammerPro 20:58, 17 May 2025 (UTC)
• It really doesn't matter. Your primary source cannot outweigh the secondary sources that are cited in the article. Also there's no need to speak so formally. Drmies (talk) 19:01, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not mandate a casual tone. The Manual of Style encourages clear and accessible writing, but both formal and casual tones are acceptable. I would appreciate it if we kept this discussion professional. Thanks for your cooperation. And yes, if a primary source is surrounded by reliable secondary sources, it is important. Kindly review the rules. This disclaimer appeared in connection with this article prior to Drmies comment (the edit was for style) JammerPro 20:58, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

Here's a secondary source. I will post more... then edit the article. JammerPro (talk) 19:06, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

Please review in light of what was supplied here and on your site. Confidence in the Article is misplaced. It would be improvident to contend that a Registered U.S. Trademark is trumped by a newspaper article, or a case that did not involve Jim Nabbie, several years prior to the registration. Review defamation by omission. JammerPro (talk) 21:20, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

References

Jim Nabbie joined the Ink Spots in 1945

Please correct or complete the Article regarding The Ink Spots. Jim Nabbie joined The Ink Spots in 1945, and was part of the organization that obtained the U.S. Trademark in 1984. It was his dynasty that persuaded the U.S. Trademark Office to grant the mark, which remains registered and INCONTESTABLE to today's date. The application swears use beginning 1945, when Nabbie joined the group. Also on file at the USPTO is a specimen of a newspaper article in support of the application that was sworn. PLEASE NOTE: THIS IS A SECONDARY SOURCE THAT IS CONTAINED WITHIN A PRIMARY RELIABLE SOURCE AND SWORN. It is surrounded by the following NY Times Article, a reliable secondary source below, and others.

The Hanover Group, Inc., Jim Nabbie's Organization, enforced its U.S. registered trademark against alleged infringers in 1985, which was settled resulting in an order enjoying the defendants from using the name. The Hanover Group, Inc. subsequently transferred ownership of the registered mark to its present owner, JIM VOGELMAN MUSICAL PRODUCTIONS, INC as set forth in the U.S. Trademark Registration at USPTO.gov. Following are more secondary independent sources to prove the case. I humbly request you correct or complete the article accordingly.

Disclaimer: I hereby declare COI as a collaborator, producer, writer, musician and former attorney for The Hanover Group, Inc., Jim Nabbie, and Ink Spots.

Official Request for Correction: The Ink Spots Article

The current Wikipedia article contains inaccuracies regarding Jim Nabbie's role in The Ink Spots. Based on the information and citations provided including records from the U.S. Trademark Office and multiple secondary sources, including The Independent and The New York Times, Jim Nabbie joined The Ink Spots in 1945. His involvement was pivotal in securing the group’s registered trademark in 1984, a mark that remains uncontested to this day.

The official trademark application, sworn and filed with the USPTO, explicitly states the group's usage of the name dating back to 1945—the year Nabbie joined. Additionally, a newspaper specimen included in the USPTO filing further supports this fact. Given the strength of these primary and secondary sources, I respectfully request that the article be corrected or completed to reflect this historical accuracy.

Request for Historical Accuracy: The Ink Spots & Trademark Legacy

Further research confirms that Deek Watson, one of the original Ink Spots—predating Bill Kenny by decades—had longstanding personal disputes with Kenny, ultimately leading to his departure. In response, Watson formed a competing Ink Spots group, which immediately became the subject of an ownership conflict.

The legitimacy of the Ink Spots name was contested, culminating in an alleged legal action wherein Watson allegedly agreed to settle and change his group's name to The Brown Dots in 1945. Note, this alleged agreement applied ONLY to the parties in the alleged lawsuit, not Jim Nabbie. While the article on Wikipedia’s The Ink Spots entry corroborates this historical timeline, it cites a NY Supreme Court global case settlement wherein Watson allegedly agreed, for a price, that only a group with Bill Kenny could use the mark. The Order was never attached, the effective date of the Order was not disclosed, nor the case citation. The Black Dispatch reported on August 4, 1955 that a formal agreement was not entered into until 1947 regarding the name, and that in any event, Watson never stopped booking the group as The Ink Spots and as a result thereof Fuqua filed suit.

Before Sept. 15, 1945, Nabbie was performing Ink Spots songs with Watson - the only remaining member of the original group besides Charles Fuqua, as is set forth in the Wikipedia Articles for The Ink Spots and Brown Dots. A plethora of advertisements and newspaper articles for events performed by Watson and Nabbie stated Watson was an original member of the Ink Spots performing the hits he sang with the original group as The Ink Spots. Albeit, some of these concerts were under the moniker Brown Dots, it is clear, Nabbie replaced Bill Kenny, and sang with Watson, an original who never stopped using the mark.

A photograph specifically using the words "the new Bill Kenny Ink Spots" was first released Sept. 15, 1945, long after the alleged date of settlement reinforcing the accuracy of Jim Nabbie’s claim to the Ink Spots trademark. He performed with Watson, an original member of the Ink Spots, prior to Kenny's NEW group (Kenny's new group had no original members except Fuqua). Additionally, the alleged NY Settlement above could not have affected Nabbie's claim. CAVEAT: The Hanover Group, Inc. successfully enforced its registered mark in Circuit Court of the Florida's 17th Judicial District in 1985 and obtained an order stopping others from using its mark.

Groups such as the Ink Spots, which span decades, often change personnel. The marks are often owned by corporate entities that use and market the brand even though original members have departed.

Given the strength of these historical and legal records, I respectfully request that the article be revised to reflect the verified origins of the Ink Spots name, ensuring factual accuracy and consistency with primary documentation. Jim Nabbie's involvement with the Ink Spots and involvement with The Hanover Group, Inc. secured the mark dating back to 1945 AND it is still viable today. The record should reflect this not only for accuracy, but because the mark is still viable, and failure to respect the registration carries exposure.

If there are any concerns regarding the sources provided, I welcome further discussion. Please review the cited documentation to ensure Wikipedia maintains an accurate representation of The Ink Spots' legacy.

Thank you for your time and attention to this matter. This appeared in connection with the previous signed article, but was reformatted prior to Drmies comment (the edit was for style) JammerPro 20:58, 17 May 2025 (UTC) — Preceding undated comment added 01:36, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

• Recommend Procedural Denial until user can CONSISELY and clearly identify A) what part of the article they are referring to, B) What they want it changed to (both in the lead) and then show the supporting sources, with no editorial digressions. The request should include no more than 500 characters.

MilesVorkosigan (talk) 16:30, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

And stop adding the confusing disclaimers. Which are confusing and may be repeatedly pinging Drmies which is a nuisance for him. Doug Weller talk 17:47, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Here's the edit:

Jim Nabbie performed with Deek Watson as The Ink Spots and Brown Dots as early as 1945.. The mark was originally registered under U.S. Registration No. 1361085 on September 17, 1985, initially owned by Nabbie's employer, The Hanover Group, Inc. based on Nabbie's legacy. Later, the mark was transferred to Jim Vogelman Musical Productions, Inc. Nabbie remained associated and employed with The Hanover Group, Inc. until his death in 1992.

Disclaimer: I have a COI as former lawyer, writer, producer, and collaborator with Jim Nabbie, The Ink Spots, and The Hanover Group, Inc.

(JammerPro (talk) 19:45, 20 May 2025 (UTC)) JammerPro (talk) 19:45, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia should not weigh in on external trademark disputes, and it certainly should not take one 'side' of the dispute as gospel. MrOllie (talk) 20:08, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Okay, I can't tell *where* you want to put that, which is why we usually ask to have that information included. It looks like it would go in 'non-Original Ink Spot Groups'?

If I'm reading this correctly, Watson left the band, and started a new one, he agreed to not use the name, but kept doing it anyway.

Nabbie was in this new band.

Then there was a suit around 1945, and he started using The Brown Dots instead.

The new band kicked Watson out and started recording as The Sentimentalists, with no members of the original Ink Spots.

At some time, during or before the 50s, they changed their name again, to the Four Tunes.

In 1965, he joined another, unrelated group calling themselves The Ink Spots?

Then, in or around 1985, Nabbie's employer trademarked the name The Ink Spots, and were allowed to do it retroactively to 1945 because nobody else had done so?

I'm not certain that everyone will agree that the history of the trademark itself is notable? That could be established by finding a secondary source that discusses this. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 20:13, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

The article already discusses it. Here's the relevant bit: From 1954 to the present, more than 100 groups have used the name "The Ink Spots". In 1967 US federal judge Emmet C. Choate ruled that since so many groups had been using the name "Ink Spots" it had become "public domain" and was free for anyone to use.. The Wikipedia article needs to stay neutral here, it should not endorse one of these many groups by recognizing one trademark application over another. MrOllie (talk) 20:32, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Ah, thank you, I missed that, was trying to help the new editor and got too enthusiastic. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 20:45, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Don't give up! You're on it! Thanks so much.

The Federal Case's ruling is a spin! It's called "dicta." A 1985 Case here in Florida ruled that The Hanover Group, Inc. owned the mark, and the infringers were enjoined. This case was reported and was supported by reliable independent secondary sources including Footnote 4 below, to-wit, Elich, Patricia (August 1, 1985). "Ink Spots clones battle over who can use name". Fort Lauderdale News. p. 21. Retrieved May 17, 2025.

From a trademark perspective, The Ink Spots brand has been around for decades. The personnel has changed. The Nabbie line was embraced by the Trademark Office in 1985 because Nabbie performed with Watson albeit as noted as a Brown Dots member (noted properly in the article) which was an intentionally deceptive mark meant to sound like The Ink Spots. What the articles The Ink Spots and Brown Dots don't address is that Watson never stopped using the name. This gave Nabbie the legacy to file for the Trademark. Jim Nabbie performed with Deek Watson as The Ink Spots and Brown Dots as early as 1945.

The Brown Dots article properly mentions Nabbie and confirms he performed with Watson before Kenny publicly announced the new Ink Spots.. Here's the secondary source showing a photo of Bill Kenny's new Ink Spots first published after Nabbie joined Watson. The mark was originally registered under U.S. Registration No. 1361085 on September 17, 1985, initially owned by Nabbie's employer, The Hanover Group, Inc. based on Nabbie's legacy. Later, the mark was transferred to Jim Vogelman Musical Productions, Inc. Nabbie remained associated and employed with The Hanover Group, Inc. until his death in 1992.

(JammerPro (talk) 21:18, 20 May 2025 (UTC)) JammerPro (talk) 21:18, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Again, I don't see what's notable about that. Basically, you've got, "...and then, in 1985, a music (licensing group/agency/something) noticed that the name was not trademarked and filed for it, based on their relationship to a member of one of the spin-off groups." Note that your sources do nothing to establish that this was a continuation of the same band, merely that there was sufficient connection to trademark the name decades later, 30 years after the group last performed and when the only original member still alive had left the band in 1936.

That seems like something that would be more useful in an article about Nabbie, or The Hanover Group. MilesVorkosigan (talk) 21:43, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Do we even have a source for "sufficient connection to trademark the name"? A trademark for 'Ink Spots' was granted, certainly, but the USPTO doesn't appear to offer any sort of commentary on what their reasoning was, unless I'm missing something. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:16, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Hi Andy and Miles. Thanks for your help. Look at the specimens submitted to the USPTO over the years. There are ads, a newspaper article, and more submitted in support at various intervals (renewal periods, etc.) which confirm the personnel at those times (Jim Nabbe initially). These are available under the documents tab at the USPTO.gov.

The articles in wiki for the Ink Spots and Brown Dots already show a timeline that Watson left in late 1944, and by January, 1945 allegedly entered into an agreement for $$$ to settle a NY Supreme Court Case giving the rights to the name to the Kenney group with Fuqua. That's where the facts get fuzzy. The case description, settlement, and other facts are missing.

The Brown Dots article properly mentions Nabbie and confirms he performed with Watson regularly beginning in the spring of 1945, before Kenny publicly published a photo of "Bill Kenny's New Ink Spots." Here's a secondary source showing that photo of Bill Kenny's new Ink Spots first published Sept. 1945. A 1955 newspaper article reveals Watson never stopped using the mark, and was sued in 1955 by Fuqua (the other original member performing with Kenney).

There are several newspaper articles listed in my original post showing that Jim Nabbie used the mark extensively since 1955.

The mark was originally registered under U.S. Registration No. 1361085 on September 17, 1985, initially owned by Nabbie's employer, The Hanover Group, Inc. based on Nabbie's legacy. Later, the mark was transferred to Jim Vogelman Musical Productions, Inc. Nabbie remained associated and employed with The Hanover Group, Inc. until his death in 1992.

A 1985 Case here in Florida ruled that The Hanover Group, Inc. owned the mark, and the infringers were enjoined. This case was reported and was supported by reliable independent secondary sources including Footnote 4 below, to-wit, Elich, Patricia (August 1, 1985). "Ink Spots clones battle over who can use name". Fort Lauderdale News. p. 21. Retrieved May 17, 2025

Thanks again for this opportunity.

Best wishes.

|JammerPro (talk) 00:36, 21 May 2025 (UTC)| JammerPro (talk) 00:36, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Forgot to mention, at the USPTO, when you submit newspaper articles and other specimens, they are sworn to in the application. Milley Lilley submitted newspaper article with Nabbie as evidence of her claim for the Hanover Group, and swore to the boilerplate language that everything submitted was true (take a look at the exact language in the application). That connects Watson ---> Ink Spots ---> Nabbie ---> Hanover Group. That's a sketch... and hopefully enough to make the case. Thoughts? JammerPro (talk) 00:46, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Thoughts? Read WP:SYNTH. That's a very long-winded way of saying you don't have a source for your assertion that the trademark for 'Ink Spots' was granted as a consequence of supposed connections with a previous group named 'The Ink Spots'. And please note that you aren't here to 'make a case'. This isn't a court, as you have already been told, multiple times. We base content only on what sources actually say. Specific content has to be supported by a single source, not inferred from multiple sources which don't individually support the content directly. No source, no content. That's how Wikipedia works. None of this is open to negotiation. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:41, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

• In 1992, Jim Nabbie's obit, obit also here from UPI, and here from the Associated Press all say he joined the group in 1945. This obit from The Atlanta Constitution says Mr. Nabbie flew to New York and successfully auditioned for the job in 1945, and the Ink Spots founder Derek Watson welcome Nabbie to the quartet. This article from Asbury Park Press in 1968, this article from Sun-News in 1979, and this New York Times article from 1981 all say Jim Nabbie joined the group in 1945, and the NYT goes on to say: According to Mr. Nabbie, he and his manager bought the rights to the Ink Spots name in 1956 from Deek Watson and Charlie Fuqua. But yet this WP article doesn't even mention Jim Nabbie being a member of the group at all. And to further complicate matters, there are three articles from 1949, 1952 and 1955 that say a Jim Nabbie was a member of The Four Tunes. Who the heck was this Jim Nabbie, and was he in both groups at the same time?

Agree the trademark issue may be too complicated to cover in this article. We've got the source from 1967, saying the name is in the public domain. And then this, source, from 1988, saying Nabbie registered the name with the trademark office, and an article from the Orlando Sentinel in 1993, which says: Jim Nabbie bought the rights to the Ink Spots name and registered it as a trademark. ProQuest 278357248; and an article from the St. Petersburg Times in 1994 that says: The original four singers are all dead now, but their music style and arrangements live on through the men chosen as their official successors [Gregory Lee, Harold Winley, Ellis Smith and Sonny Hatchett], complete with a Registered Service Mark through the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office in Washington to protect the sound against impostors and impersonators ... only these four singers are allowed to perform using the name the Ink Spots. ProQuest 263081415. And now, fast forward to 2025, who owns the trademark now? Isaidnoway (talk) 01:07, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Thank you @Isaidnoway from the bottom of my heart! You are incredible. I am literally in tears.

At first glance, it seems like a puzzle, but there's more consistency than meets the eye. Groups that span decades have different personnel. Companies buy the group, control the name, then, in the case of these "golden oldie" bands, replace leaving members. Some organizations have a multitude of musicians that tour with an original member of a famous band. I've seen it firsthand—when legacy meets new talent, sparks fly!

The original Ink Spots of the 30's were not the same in the 40's, 50's, 60's, and 70's. Rights to the name were not clear after Watson split up with Kenney in 1944. There were several court cases, cited ad nauseum, so I'll just briefly allude to them here. 1) 1944 Supreme Court of NY. Kenney v. Watson et. al, allegedly having an Order giving Kenney and Fuqua the right to the name; 2) 1955 suit by Fuqua v. Watson, who NEVER stopped using the name, and then, 3) the Florida 1985 case in Broward that enforced The Hanover Group, Inc.'s federal trademark registration.

==Claims to the Ink Spots Trademark==

Nabbie's claim to the mark is through Watson, whether by performing with him from 1945 as a member of [[The Brown Dots]], which never stopped performing as The Ink Spots, or by some kind of deal where he bought the name as set forth in Orlando Sentinel in 1993, which says: Jim Nabbie bought the rights to the Ink Spots. No matter how you slice it, the mark is legally incontestable! It has been with Nabbie's line since registered.

By the late 70s, early 80s, Nabbie had the greatest claim to the name. The Hanover Group, Inc. and Nabbie had an agreement the name would be held by the corporation controlled by Millie Della Lilley, where, as of record at the USPTO, it remained until after her death. It was transferred to Jim Vogelman, who served as a musical director for the group while with The Hanover Group, Inc.

The group I knew, produced, represented, and composed songs for was comprised of the personnel on this recording with "The Ink Spots" prominently displayed on the cover at YouTube.com circa. 1986. Jim Nabbie, Harold Winley, Sonny Hatchett, and King Drake.

Please honor Jim by giving him the credit he deserves! He was a friend.

Disclaimer: I am close to this subject, have corroborated with, produced, represented and befriended The Ink Spots. .The Hanover Group,Inc. and Jim Nabbie and miss them. RIP. JammerPro (talk) 04:40, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

References