Talk:Shaivism

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Shaivism is a religion since pre-vedic period

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Why are this page still portraying Shaivism is a tradition of Hinduism?

There are thousands of sources claiming Shaivism were religion of Chola Dynasty and Pandya Dynasty. Most of the matured Wikipedia editors know Hinduism, which developed out of the merger of Vedic religion with numerous local religious traditions.

Shaivism remained the dominant religion in India until the arrival of the Aryans, who violently attacked the Shiva cult. Shaivism — which continued to be the religion of the people integrated into Brahmanic religion, of which it now forms an essential aspect. - The brief history of India

Other refs: 1. A Manual of the Salem District in the Presidency of Madras: The district 2. Community Dominance and Political Modernisation 3. Yearning to Belong Discovering a New Religious Movement 2401:4900:4ACB:4695:ACA0:1A60:628C:DBFD (talk) 14:27, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is not an issue requiring the use of the administrator tools. All editors are free to to work on this article. 331dot (talk) 15:22, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox image

The image depicts the daily yajna at Muni ki Reti associated with Parmarth Niketan (https://www.parmarth.org/divine-ganga-aarti-yagna/). The institute is not a Shaiva institute. Thus, suggest the image be changed. @Chronikhiles - since you have suggested changes at Vaishnavism. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 11:17, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion 1
Suggestion 2

Restoring Wikiproject

Please see Talk:Vaishnavism#Restoring Wikiproject. Thanks. Rasnaboy (talk) 03:55, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Philosophical Aspects

The section on Shaiva philosophy could better explore concepts like Shiva as the Absolute reality (Para Brahman), the relationship between Shaivism and Advaita Vedanta, and comparisons with Vaishnavism. Krishnpriya123 (talk) 17:02, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Krishnpriya123 yes that would be good addition to the page. If you have suggestions for sources, that would help. I will try to contribute. Asteramellus (talk) 23:52, 2 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Asteramellus That sounds great. I’ll begin gathering relevant sources and will share any that seem useful. Your contributions would be very welcome whenever you’re able to participate. Krishnpriya123 (talk) 17:14, 4 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Revert by Joshua Jonathan to his preferred version

@Joshua Jonathan Can you share the quotation of Flood where he talks specifically about Shaivism? otherwise its a synth. And why did you removed a 2011 sourced info and kept a 1984 opinion one? 103.92.120.11 (talk) 04:32, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Users who contibute regularly to this page please check it out. I might not be able to debate politely so i am not taking this furthur. If you are fine with the unsubstantiated additions, then so be it. @Rasnaboy @Asteramellus @Ms Sarah Welch 103.92.120.11 (talk) 04:37, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Flood (1997), Hinduism, p.148 and 150. I added further info and references of my revert of your WP:COPYVIO of Bisschop. Part of their info is still in the lead. But hey, is this you, Vic? 04:46, 7 May 2025 (UTC) Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:46, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Why part of the info? Why did you removed the most critical part? And kept speculations of sort of an outdated source? Fine no issues. Ill be restoring the attribution and some info later without removing your part. But, As i said i want specific quoatation here from flood talking about shaivism and sanskritisation. That part id orignal research. Also the part where they talk about a pre aryan religion. i would love to learn more about that religion and how its traditions shaped shaivism. The whole sentence is a synthesis. 103.92.120.11 (talk) 04:53, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The earliest evidence for sectarian Rudra-Shiva worship appears with the Pasupata (early CE).

WP:LEAD summarizes the article; extensive info can be given in the body. Copying wholesale from a source is a WP:COPYVIO. Flood p.148:

Within the developing Hindu-traditions we can see the process of Brahmanisation or Sanskritization, whereby the great brahmanical tradition of vedic social values, vedic ritual forms and Sanskrit learning absorbs local popular traditions of ritual and ideology.

P.149:

Processes occur in Saivism which are also found in Vaishnavism: the absorption by brahmanical orthopraxy of non-vedic ritual forms and ideas and the identification of local deities with pan-Hindu ones.

P.150:

Siva was originally excluded from the vedic sacrifice; that he is a deity perhaps originally from outsode the vedic pantheon, but who came to be accepted as one of the gods.

Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:11, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, aligning local traditions with the Vedic corpus is indeed what occurred in the development of Shaivism, as well as in classical and modern Hinduism as a whole—no one is debating that. However, the emphasis on "pre-Aryan" and "pre-Vedic" origins without solid evidence or proper attribution is problematic. Similarly, the omission of more modern scholarly opinions is also concerning.

Our article on Sanskritisation clearly states that the concept primarily referred to the upward caste mobility of lower castes by emulating the traditions of higher castes. Therefore, the idea that higher castes would change their traditions to adopt those of lower castes seems improbable—though not impossible—unless those traditions were already aligned with the Vedic corpus.

It is more probable that these traditions were already rooted in the Vedic framework, especially since there is no clear evidence of any distinct pre-Vedic or pre-Aryan religion. Most modern scholars support this view. What we do have are examples of local deities being aligned with or absorbed into the Vedic pantheon, not of entirely separate local traditions later being incorporated.

Many scholars, such as Asko Parpola, even suggest that there were non-Vedic Aryans in India before the arrival of the Vedic Aryans. Furthermore, Flood uses terms like "perhaps" when referring to elements outside the Vedic pantheon, so we cannot present his suggestions as definitive. That is my only concern. 103.92.120.11 (talk) 05:34, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]