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Requested move 18 June 2025

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Much of the debate is about which name is the common name, but natural disambiguation is preferred over parenthetical, and nobody is arguing that the middle name isn't used in plenty of RSs. If WP:NATURAL applies, deciding on WP:COMMONNAME isn't necessary. (closed by non-admin page mover) Ivey (talk - contribs) 16:10, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Richard Butler (white supremacist) → Richard Girnt Butler – Using his full name forms a WP:NCDAB which is preferred over parenthetical disambs, and I think the name with the middle name is the WP:COMMONNAME for him anyway. His full name is used in most sources that refer to him, including encyclopedias (e.g. Kaplan's encyclopedia) and most obituaries. We could also do "G." because that's common, but full name seems to be more common. Was moved without discussion because it was "better" (I do not think it is, as he is very often referred to with his middle name). PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:09, 18 June 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 01:19, 26 June 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPathtalk 08:55, 12 July 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. – MrAussieGuy (Talk) 00:15, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. Richard Butler appears to be more common than either Richard Girnt Butler or Richard G. Butler and so per WP:COMMONNAME that's what we should use. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:33, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Necrothesp I'll grab more sources later, but this isn't true. Every encyclopedia on the far-right uses his full name. Jeffrey Kaplan's Encyclopedia of White Power uses Richard Girnt Butler the Encyclopedia of Modern American Extremists and Extremist Groups uses Richard Girnt Butler and The Ku Klux Klan: History, Organization, Language, Influence and Activities of America's Most Notorious Secret Society uses Richard Girnt Butler. This is every encyclopedia on this topic I have seen. Most scholarly sources follow this pattern. Of the sources in this article, only one uses the short name, and it's an extremely local one. Most non local news sources use Girnt. One uses Richard G. Butler and the other used Richard Girnt Butler. The works of Michael Barkun also use the long name. The short form is plainly not the common name. PARAKANYAA (talk) 21:54, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, further evidence. Other books that only use his full name: God, Guns, and Sedition (2024), Barkun's Religion and the Racist Right, Blood and Politics, just out of the books I have. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:40, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, three of the cited sources used the short name, and surely the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post cannot be characterised as "extremely local"? -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:42, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Necrothesp Misidentified the LA times piece as a reprint, my bad. The Washington Post piece is contemporary primary legal notice that did not run his name in the title, not a secondary source. The weight of all secondary academic work overwhelmingly uses his full name. And if we're discounting scholarship in favor of the sources here, and we're not just going by headlines, let's go through all the sources here that are sigcov and reliable
    Spokesman, uses short name in title long name in article itself
    NYT, uses Richard G.
    CBS News, uses Richard G.
    SPLC, uses Richard Girnt
    LAT, uses Richard
    Timeline, uses Richard Girnt.
    CNN, uses Richard Girnt
    Washington Post, uses Richard
    That's three that use "Richard", two that use "Richard G.", four that use "Richard Girnt". Even if we would for some reason limit ourselves to the news articles cited here instead of scholarly works, the common name is certainly not his short name. PARAKANYAA (talk) 11:02, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    No, Richard Butler appears to be more common. DN (talk) 04:22, 28 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Darknipples According to what? PARAKANYAA (talk) 04:32, 28 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The majority of RS, including ones that aren't used in the article, such as news reports. DN (talk) 19:17, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Most RS use his full name. PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:35, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Most RS refer to "Richard Butler" a notable (white supremacist). DN (talk) 00:01, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Most refer to him as "Richard Girnt Butler', which is preferred per WP:NCDAB. PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:45, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    It's clear I don't share your opinion and repeating yourself isn't very productive. Have you considered that we already list "Richard Girnt Butler" in the first sentence much like all of your "preferred" sources? DN (talk) 01:51, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Whether a majority of sources use a name is not an opinion, it is a factual matter. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:01, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Am I to waste my time listing every single source that refers to him as "Richard Butler", including the ones that also use his middle name or initial? Claiming that my assertions are based on nothing and ambiguously referring to NCDAB does not sway my opinion thus far. DN (talk) 02:34, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, the sources have already been presented. Your response to ButlerBlog's list was to say "are you sure?" and then link two sources from advocacy orgs, not academia, even though one of the groups you provided as proof used the full name in the headline anyway. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:42, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, the sources have already been presented."
    Some of them.
    "one of the groups you provided as proof used the full name in the headline anyway.
    Which one?
    https://www.splcenter.org/resources/extremist-files/richard-butler/
    https://extremismterms.adl.org/glossary/richard-butler
    Cheers. DN (talk) 02:51, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    https://www.splcenter.org/resources/reports/aryan-nations-leader-richard-girnt-butler-final-days-life/ Their obituary?
    News and advocacy sources are less reliable, so I don't even know why we're discussing these, really. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:55, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The question isn't about reliability, and that isn't my link, but since you are using it as en example you should note that it also refers to him as "Richard Butler". See where it says...
    "For Richard Butler, race is religion, and religion is nation."
    if you prefer obituaries by sources that aren't experts on white supremacists, there's also NYT DN (talk) 03:12, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, of course it is about reliability, because WP:COMMONNAME is "determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources". Yes, short forms are sometimes used, but that's how it is in every source.
    Academia is more reliable than news or advocacy organizations, so that is what we should be prioritizing. And New York Times, in their secondary coverage of him, used his middle initial [1]. PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:17, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for including the correct link to NYT, I'll strike mine. Woops. DN (talk) 03:22, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    See additional requisites..."prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources" DN (talk) 03:30, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes. Reliable is in there too. All of the sources provided are significant, independent, and English-language. The most reliable sources are the academic ones, so that should be prioritized, and even if we didn't, the full name is the COMMONNAME, and even if it wasn't, when there is no common name the middle name is used as the disamb rather than a parenthetical. I can see the argument that there isn't actually a clear common name, but in that case we would use the middle name anyway. PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:36, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Please see COMMONNAME...
    The following are examples of the application of the concept of commonly used names in support of recognizability:
    • People
    • Mahatma Gandhi (not: Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi)
    • Mansa Musa (not: Musa I)
    • Bill Clinton (not: William Jefferson Clinton)
    • J. K. Rowling (not: Joanne Rowling)
    • Bono (not: Paul Hewson)
    • Mark Antony (not: Marcus Antonius)
    • Shirley Temple (not: Shirley Temple Black)
    "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's official name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used as determined by its prevalence." DN (talk) 03:46, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    "it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used as determined by its prevalence". As is the case with the usage of his middle name in referring to him reliable sources, including all other encyclopedias on this topic. PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:59, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom. The majority of academic sources use "Richard Girnt Butler", including key works/authors that are often cited in other sources, both academic and news media. These would include Jeffrey Kaplan (Encyclopedia of White Power), Michael Barkun (Religion and the Racist Right), Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke (Black Sun), and more recently, Lori Cox Han and Tomislav Han (Political Violence in America). I could easily list more from my personal library. Yes, some do shorten to simply "Richard Butler", but there's enough support from academic works to suggest that WP:COMMONNAME is "Richard Girnt Butler". ButlerBlog (talk) 14:05, 28 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    He is also listed as "Richard Girnt Butler" in the following academic sources:
    • Encyclopedia of modern American extremists and extremist groups by Stephen Atkins
    • Militias in America : a reference handbook by Neil A. Hamilton
    • Aryan cowboys : White supremacists and the search for a new frontier, 1970-2000, Evelyn A. Schlatter
    • Hate groups in America : a record of bigotry and violence, a source text by Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith
    • Facing terror : the government's response to contemporary extremists in America, Jim Rodgers
    • Extremism in America : a reader, Lyman Tower Sargent
    • Extremist groups : information for students
    And, literally dozens of other books on terrorism, extremism, and new religious movements.
    He is also referred to as "Richard Girnt Butler" in Cheri Seymour's Committee of the States, which is probably the most "inside" document about Christian Identity written by an outsider as it is based on direct interviews with William Potter Gale (and Richard Girnt Butler and others).
    He's also referred to as "Richard Girnt Butler" by James Mason in Siege (so referred to by this name "internally")
    Both SPLC and ADL refer to him as "Richard Girnt Butler"
    He is referred to as "Richard Girnt Butler" in FBI FOIA requests on Aryan Nations, William Potter Gale, William Pierce, Robert Miles, The Order and others. ButlerBlog (talk) 21:02, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Are you sure?
    Cheers. DN (talk) 23:12, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Those are two less reliable sources than academia, and the SPLC uses his full name in their own obituary of him. I'm unsure of what point you're trying to make? PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:32, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    That wasn't my point, so... DN (talk) 23:33, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Then what was it? PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:34, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I see you are just now responding to it (here). Of course many RS would include his full name and or his middle initial in addition to his COMMONNAME. The disambiguator (white supremacist) is appropriate here. DN (talk) 23:52, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The SPLC article you linked refers to him using both short and long names, and the long name is used throughout the site: [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8]
    Similarly, ADL uses both short and long throughout the site: [9]. Also, see page 54 of their book Hate Groups in America: A Record of Bigotry and Violence[10]
    Or, see any of the texts I already noted. ButlerBlog (talk) 23:33, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The fact that Michael Barkun, who is one of the foremost experts writing on Christian Identity and extremism (as evidenced by the fact that he is often referenced as a source by other academics), consistently uses the long name in both journals and books is indication that "Richard Girnt Butler" is the most appropriate title [11]. One of the key items is that in academic texts (and often other sources as well), when/if he is referred to as "Richard Butler", he almost always is first referred to as "Richard Girnt Butler".
    There are also literally dozens of academic journal articles that use his long name. A few examples: [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17]. ButlerBlog (talk) 12:36, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Considering you have denied the importance of my previous quotes from Barkun in our previous discussions, it's difficult for me to AGF with you once again. I've cast my vote and will wait for others to contribute in the hopes of some more reasonable suggestions. DN (talk) 01:53, 3 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    You may want to double check some of those sources. Were they all supposed to be about the subject, or just some? One of them appears to be in French. DN (talk) 02:04, 3 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Unfortunately, one of the key points that is getting lost in this wall-of-text is that in this case, natural disambiguation is clearly available. Natural disambiguation that is unambiguous, commonly used, and clear is generally preferable to parenthetical disambiguation (WP:NCDAB). We can argue back and forth over which is more common and find many more cherry-picked examples to support either version of COMMONNAME. That by itself should then lean toward the long version as it is clearly commonly used and provides the preferred natural disambiguation. If the primary opposition is based on the desire to continue to use a value label, that's not a valid reason to use disambiguation when it is unnecessary based on the five primary criteria. We generally do not lean toward WP:POVTITLEs when they are not necessary. Using a title without parenthetical disambiguation does not whitewash the fact that he is a white supremacist. That fact is clearly stated in the article. ButlerBlog (talk) 12:56, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Who are you talking to? No one has made claims of whitewashing. I'm sure you don't mean to misinterpret my arguments because that would be misleading. Cheers. DN (talk) 01:39, 3 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Why then do you feel the need to respond? If that's not your claim, then it's not about you. I didn't say you made such a claim. What I said was "If the primary opposition is based on...". I'm sure you likewise don't mean to misinterpret my arguments because that would also be misleading. ButlerBlog (talk) 11:55, 3 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I asked you to clarify who you were talking to, and instead of answering, you appear to be doubling down on an implied criticism that did not exist before you, yourself, created it.
    "Why then do you feel the need to respond?"...
    I may be misinterpreting your argument, which is why I asked a direct question instead using this type of of rhetoric that looks like gas-lighting IMO, so I'm respectfully discontinuing our discussion. DN (talk) 18:25, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    So that the key points do not get muddled by distractions:
    • Natural disambiguation is preferred when possible (WP:NCDAB).
    • "Richard Girnt Butler" is commonly used in academic sources (WP:COMMONNAME).
    • This name meets the 5 primary criteria of recognizability, naturalness, precision, concision, and consistency (WP:CRITERIA).
    • We generally avoid POV titles when they are not necessary (WP:POVTITLE).
    ButlerBlog (talk) 18:56, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Clarifying points of dispute.
    • Results from an initial Google Trends search per WP:SET
    • According to WP:NCDAB, parenthetical disambiguation is acceptable and listed as one of the top 3 suggested methods. Natural disambiguation is preferable to parenthetical disambiguation when it is commonly used.
    • "Richard Butler" is also used in academic sources, along with "Richard Girnt Butler"
    • There is a possible conflict with WP:CRITERIA in using "Richard Girnt Butler", specifically in regard to Recognizability and Consistency.
    • Disambiguating this "Richard Butler" by referring to him as a white supremacist does not violate NPOV.
    DN (talk) 20:02, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't thing google trends is helpful here for determining common name. There are other Richard Butlers, such as the singer Richard Butler. Many of the searches for "Richard Butler" could have been searches for other Richard Butlers, making it unhelpful to determine if Richard Butler is the most common way people search for this guy specifically. Urchincrawler (talk) 23:37, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    That's fair. DN (talk) 18:29, 12 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per COMMONNAME. DN (talk) 19:18, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
•Oppose
The Southern Poverty Law Center, Variety, and ABC news refer to him mainly as Richard Butler. (SPLC gives his full name in the background section, but their page as whole is titled "Richard Butler.")
https://www.splcenter.org/resources/extremist-files/richard-butler/
https://variety.com/2024/film/reviews/the-order-review-jude-law-nicholas-hoult-venice-film-festival-1236125318/
https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95672&page=1 Urchincrawler (talk) 23:47, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Idaho, WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, WikiProject United States, and WikiProject Politics have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPathtalk 08:55, 12 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
oppose, unless you can convincingly assert the name that the new title is his common name (WP:CommonName) SecretName101 (talk) 05:46, 20 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
SecretName101 "a name that the proposed new title is his common name" - what? PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:57, 20 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@PARAKANYAA evidently my phone is glitching trying to post here from my mobile phone browser. Words I thought were deleted were not SecretName101 (talk) 06:02, 20 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: Originally closed by me as moved at 05:56, 22 July 2025 (UTC) with the following reason: "per WP:NCDAB Natural disambiguation is preferred if it is "commonly used in English (even without being the most common term), and equally clear"." – relisting after close was opposed on my task page and at RM/TR to clarify consensus. – MrAussieGuy (Talk) 00:15, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:NATURAL regardless of common name. Kowal2701 (talk) 21:38, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:NATURAL, both variants appear to be in use by RS so we should prefer the one that doesn't require parenthetical disambiguation.--Staberinde (talk) 07:59, 31 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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