Talk:Personal ordinariate

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On 16 June 2025, it was proposed that this article be moved to Anglican ordinariates. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

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Black and Jewish ordinariates

Pinging @Natemup: For a while, this article included a section regarding the premise of Jewish and Black Catholic ordinariates the structures. While there has certainly been some discussion of both proposals in reliable sources, there are reasons to exclude both from this article. The first is that the notion of a Jewish ordinariate seems to have been floated without any extensive consideration within the Vatican for such an establishment, so we have to weigh the merit of including it as imperative in encyclopedic coverage.

The matter of a Black ordinariate in the Americas is a different issue. The idea of such a body generally tracks back to a 1920 effort. The source provided is Desegregating the Altar, which details the proposal of an apostolic vicar for Black Catholics in the U.S. Two problems arise: the author (Ochs) acknowledges that the establishment of an ordinariate is only a potential implication of such a proposal and that the ordinariate structure implicitly referenced is the model of the ordinariates for Eastern Catholic faithful. As the proposal for a Black Catholic ordinariate was not explicit, it was likely based on a different ecclesial structure, and it predated the personal ordinariate structure by more than 80 years, I think it shouldn't be in this article (but could be on the Eastern Catholic ordinariate article). ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:56, 30 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One peculiar source to me is the Kesher Journal web article provided as a source regarding the possibility of a Jewish ordinariate. Such a source seems to me to be somewhat dubious. Unusual recriminations (talk) 18:19, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 June 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Alpha3031 (t • c) 08:39, 28 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Personal ordinariate → Anglican ordinariates – The current name is not accurate due to other personal ordinariates existing outside the scope of these personal ordinariates (for example, military ordinariates are personal ordinariates because the ordinary of those ordinariates exercise personal rather than territorial jutisdiction). MysticKnight (talk) 19:41, 13 June 2025 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). MysticKnight (talk) 01:26, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I also want to add that "Anglican ordinariates" is arguably the colloquial name for these, both among outsiders and those who are members of these ordinariates, even if it isn't the official name (that being "personal ordinariates for former Anglicans". MysticKnight (talk) 01:29, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: There is no indication that any of those other institutions are generally called "personal ordinariates", so the disambiguation is unnecessary. Further, "Anglican ordinariates" is something of a misnomer (even if it is occasionally used). ~ Pbritti (talk) 12:15, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There is no indication that these are called personal ordinariates either. They are officially called personal ordinariates for former Anglicans. Therefore, the choice is between two short-hand names that don't have official status. Seeing as what distinguishes these ordinariates from other ordinariates is not that they are personal, but that they are for former Anglicans and for the sake of the Anglican Patrimony, the name "Anglican ordinariates" makes the most sense. Further, "Anglican ordinariate" is by far the more commonly used term to refer to them. For example, this is clear when you compare the two on Google trends: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=anglican%20ordinariate,personal%20ordinariate&hl=en. MysticKnight (talk) 18:52, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There is no indication that these are called personal ordinariates either. That's not true—indeed, "personal ordinariates" is their common name. Some articles that provide evidence for this: "Bishop Lopes explains what a 'personal ordinariate' means", "Vatican issues updated norms for personal ordinariates", "Pope Francis Issues New Norms for Personal Ordinariates", "[...] the new leader of the U.K.’s personal ordinariate", etc. Personal ordinariate actually part of that names of these jurisdictions—"Anglican ordinariate" is not. I think this is pretty clear. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:21, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The articles you cited don't support your argument.

In the first one, it's America Magazine that calls them "Personal Ordinariates", while Bishop Lopes calls them simply "ordinariates" and says "It is called “personal” because it is comprised of those parish communities that share a common liturgical, pastoral and theological heritage of English Catholicism, wherever they happen to be."

in the second one, NCR is not even a Catholic source, seeing as they are calling themselves Catholic in contravention to the Church which told them to stop. Further, even if we grant them as being Catholic, just because they call them personal ordinariates does not make them the common name. I can list you many more articles that call them Anglican Ordinariates. https://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2014/08/a-talk-on-anglican-ordinariate.html?hl=en&m=1 https://www.catholic.com/audio/cal/the-anglican-ordinariate https://crisismagazine.com/tags/anglican-ordinariate https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/tags/85/anglican-ordinariate https://www.catholicworldreport.com/tag/anglican-ordinariate/

NCRegister also uses the term Anglican Ordinariate, so it's a bit strange to cite them. https://www.ncregister.com/blog/the-untold-story-of-how-the-cdf-created-the-anglican-ordinariate

The Fourth link doesn't even call it the Personal Ordinariate in the headline, but the UK Ordinariate. Nor does this indicate a name for the three ordinariates collectively considered. MysticKnight (talk) 21:55, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The above reliable sources all preferentially utilize personal ordinariate—just as the jurisdictions themselves do. Additionally, your commentary on NCR is irrelevant to whether they qualify as an RS (which Crisis and NLM are generally considered not to be). ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:59, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I see no issues here. Solution in search of a problem. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:39, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.