Talk:Operation Blue Star

Semi-protected edit request on 4 June 2024

In the penultimate paragraph before the article separate into categories 'whom' is misspelled as 'whm' 81.110.207.10 (talk) 09:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 09:44, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 July 2024

Please remove this derogatory prefix of " militant" from the name of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale . The Indian government has never till date publicised the man as militant . Thus, use of militant against his name is not only illegal , unlawful but also shameful act by the writer or editor of this page. 38.137.57.157 (talk) 00:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Then , please change " militant " to "Sant " before the name of Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale. 38.137.57.157 (talk) 00:47, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Bhindrawale was a militant though. In Punjab, Khalistanis use the term "Kharku" to describe themselves as militants. Captain AmericanBurger1775 (talk) 01:09, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. — DaxServer (t·m·e·c) 08:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 May 2025

The second introductory paragraph mentions Sikh militant killings of hundreds of Hindus which is factually wrong as before 6 june 1984, a total of 300-400 murders have been committed in Punjab including non-insurgency related murders. The number of Sikhs killed was higher than 300. And the claim that the militants wanted a flight of hindus is unsubstantiated and matter of ongoing debate. The sources provided are not satisfactory. One can refer to even the Government records wherein no such hundreds of killings of Hindus can be substantiated. Please do correct it. 2409:40D1:14:F2BB:9414:B6D5:D9FE:4F6D (talk) 00:54, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Day Creature (talk) 03:59, 16 May 2025 (UTC)

As I mentioned earlier, the sources used for this sentence "the claim that the militants wanted a flight of hindus is unsubstantiated and matter of ongoing debate." are all heresy and not directly from any real source #28,29 and 30 but as I have mentioned earlier in my own edit "(concerns regarding their compliance with WP:RS and WP:V. Specifically: 1. Lack of Primary or Investigative Evidence: These works do not cite direct evidence or firsthand sources (e.g., interviews, court records, testimonies). Rather, they summarize common political narratives and lack citation of specific incidents attributed directly to Bhindranwale.)". There are very limited sources from that time that can be relied on, especially due to the media blackout. Firstly the archival footage from interviews with Sant Bhindranwale, his footage of meeting different faith leaders, Swami Vishnudevananda, Subramanian Swamy, and other hindu faith leaders over the years, all videos are available. Him saying in multiple speeches "Sada hindu naal koi vair nahi eh vi apna h koi gair nhi (We hold no enmity toward Hindus — they are our own, not outsiders). I also indicated More Reliable Academic Counter-Sources Exist: Scholars like Dr. Joyce J.M. Pettigrew (The Sikhs of Punjab) conducted extensive fieldwork and interviews during the insurgency. Her work does not support the claim that Bhindranwale directly orchestrated killings of Hindus. In fact, she notes that his conflict was directed toward state repression rather than any religious group. So this line "Bhindranwale orchestrated militants to kill hundreds of Hindus, and used terrorism to evoke fear among Hindus, hoping to incite their mass flight from Punjab" is factually incorrect. Anonymous1232t124123 (talk) 04:56, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

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“From the Harmandir Sahib complex, Bhindranwale orchestrated militants to kill hundreds of Hindus, and used terrorism to evoke fear among Hindus, hoping to incite their mass flight from Punjab.” This statement is misleading and not supported by the most credible sources. Here’s why: 🔍 1. No Direct Evidence of Orders to Kill Hindus The cited works (Ganguly, India Encountering Insurgency, Avoiding the Apocalypse) present political commentary and hearsay, not primary evidence or verified interviews. They do not cite any document, recording, or testimony proving that Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale orchestrated the killing of Hindus. 📚 2. Reliable Scholarly Sources Based on Fieldwork Contradict This Joyce J.M. Pettigrew, in The Sikhs of Punjab, conducted in-person interviews and observed Bhindranwale directly. She found no evidence that he ordered attacks on civilians or Hindus. Her work emphasizes that he was fighting state repression, not advocating communal violence. Cynthia Mahmood (Fighting for Faith and Nation) also conducted interviews with Sikh militants and supporters and noted that Bhindranwale never encouraged killing innocent civilians. Rather, she shows his movement was seen as defensive in nature. Bhindranwale is documented as having paid for the weddings of Hindu girls, and offered support to Hindu families, even at the height of tension. In speeches (available on YouTube and archival footage), he repeatedly stated that Sikhs and Hindus had lived together for centuries and urged peace, despite criticizing certain state policies. 🧾 3. Suggested Neutral Rewording To align with Wikipedia’s policies on WP:NPOV and WP:RS, I suggest the following: Some sources have alleged Bhindranwale’s presence at the Harmandir Sahib complex was associated with increased militancy during the Punjab insurgency. However, field-based scholars like Joyce Pettigrew and Cynthia Mahmood, who interviewed Bhindranwale and his supporters, found no evidence that he called for violence against civilians or Hindus. In fact, he is reported to have supported interfaith harmony and publicly denounced indiscriminate violence. This revision provides balance, includes both perspectives, and avoids unverified, emotionally charged claims being presented as fact. Thank you for reviewing this. I’m happy to provide page numbers and quotes upon request. Anonymous1232t124123 (talk) 05:10, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 May 2025

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Hello editors, Anonymous1232t124123 (talk) 05:00, 24 May 2025 (UTC)I am requesting a review and potential removal of the sentence: “From the Harmandir Sahib complex, Bhindranwale orchestrated militants to kill hundreds of Hindus, and used terrorism to evoke fear among Hindus, hoping to incite their mass flight from Punjab.” This statement is currently cited to three sources: • Sumit Ganguly’s India Since 1980 • India: Encountering Insurgency – Lessons Learned • Avoiding the Apocalypse: Social Movements in India Today After reviewing these sources, I have concerns regarding their compliance with WP:RS and WP:V. Specifically: 1. Lack of Primary or Investigative Evidence: These works do not cite direct evidence or firsthand sources (e.g., interviews, court records, testimonies). Rather, they summarize common political narratives and lack citation of specific incidents attributed directly to Bhindranwale. 2. Potential Violation of WP:NPOV: The statement presents a highly charged accusation as fact, without appropriate attribution (e.g., “according to X” or “has been accused of”). It risks violating the Neutral Point of View policy. 3. More Reliable Academic Counter-Sources Exist: Scholars like Dr. Joyce J.M. Pettigrew (The Sikhs of Punjab) conducted extensive fieldwork and interviews during the insurgency. Her work does not support the claim that Bhindranwale directly orchestrated killings of Hindus. In fact, she notes that his conflict was directed toward state repression rather than any religious group. Pettigrew should be considered a higher-quality, peer-reviewed source. 4. Balance and Attribution Needed: If the sentence is to remain in any form, it should: • Attribute claims to the authors (e.g., “According to Sumit Ganguly…”) • Include counterpoints from scholars like Pettigrew or Cynthia Mahmood, and • Acknowledge the lack of conclusive evidence directly linking Bhindranwale to civilian killings. Proposed Revision: Some sources, such as Sumit Ganguly and others, have alleged that Bhindranwale’s presence at the Harmandir Sahib was linked to militancy and communal violence, including incidents of violence against Hindus. However, other scholars like Joyce Pettigrew, who conducted field interviews during the insurgency, have argued that Bhindranwale’s conflict was political rather than communal, and that there is no clear evidence he orchestrated attacks against civilians.

Anonymous1232t124123 (talk) 05:03, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. And please write using your own words, not with AI. Day Creature (talk) 15:59, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

It has been fixed, please advise if you want further source research or what other information you need to fix that? I would propose writing something along the lines of actually pointing out that these are not 1st hand accounts/ evidences, because there are more 1st hand sources that have never mentioned anything of this sort. Anonymous1232t124123 (talk) 16:37, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

@Day Creature I only used AI to help organize what I had already written — not to generate or interpret the sources themselves. I currently have copies of all the sources and have reviewed them for clarification. If it helps, I’m happy to provide specific examples. Just let me know what you’re looking for, and I can go back and check the original references used within these sources. Anonymous1232t124123 (talk) 04:47, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

Using AI chatbots to write talk page comments is not permitted on Wikipedia and constitutes disruptive editing. See WP:LLMTALK. If you continue to do this, you may be blocked from editing. Day Creature (talk) 05:52, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

It has been fixed, please advise on what other info you need. Anonymous1232t124123 (talk) 16:38, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

Since you cannot delete your old comment after it has been replied to, it has been restored. I have collapsed your LLM-generated comment, and am reposting your replacement comment below for other editors to consider:

The line about Bhindranwale ordering militants to kill hundreds of Hindus isn’t really accurate. I checked the sources it’s based on, like Sumit Ganguly and the others, and they don’t actually give clear proof or direct evidence. They don’t include things like interviews, court records, or solid examples. It also reads like a fact, but this is still something that’s debated by historians, so it feels one-sided. There are better sources out there, like Joyce Pettigrew, who actually interviewed people during that time. She says Bhindranwale’s conflict was more political and against the government, not aimed at Hindus, and that there’s no real proof he told anyone to attack civilians. I think if anything is kept in the article, it should say it’s according to some sources and also mention that others disagree or say there’s no evidence. Just want to help make sure it stays fair and accurate. The 3 sources listed are not first hand evidence, they are just sentences from different books, without any sources or proof.

— Anonymous1232t124123 in Special:Diff/1291996457 at 16:31, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

Please refrain from using LLM-generated comments in talk page discussions, as we would prefer to see your explanations in your own words. Thank you. — Newslinger talk 22:55, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

Understood, thank you for pointing that out. I am willing to write more on the topic if any information is requested since I have access to about 6-7 1st hand sources. I also have full length books/ articles of the sources cited in the sentence I want revised. It is understood the topic of sensitive so I am willing to write an impartial sentence that can be added citing what is available. Please advise when you can. Anonymous1232t124123 (talk) 23:11, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

Oppose Anonymous’s proposed revisions, which honestly seems like the whitewashing of atrocities. It also seems like he already has a preconceived notion about Bhindranwale and is assessing and describing the sources to fit his convictions. As far as I can tell the vast, vast majority of academic literature describes Bhindranwale as millitant who spearheaded a violent movement: even according to Brittanica. I don’t see how you can unilaterally dismiss the high quality sources used in the article. ChanduDev (talk) 23:28, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Jarnail-Singh-Bhindranwale#:~:text=Jarnail%20Singh%20Bhindranwale%20(born%201947,to%20Operation%20Blue%20Star%2C%20a

Here is the britannica page on bhindranwale. As you can see, it repeatedly describes him as leading a violent movement, an extremist, and says “The communal tension grew more dire as Bhindranwale’s forces eliminated their enemies with seeming impunity”. This strongly points to there being a consensus that Bhindranwale was responsible for the aforementioned crimes. ChanduDev (talk) 23:33, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

First of all, there’s no actual evidence that Bhindranwale ever said Hindus should be killed — that’s just propaganda with no real source behind it. The only thing they try to pin on him is the cow head incident in 1982, but even that isn’t proven. At the time, there was a media blackout in Punjab, so everything reported came through government-backed channels, which makes it completely unreliable. The sources I’m talking about, like Sikhs of the Punjab by Joyce Pettigrew, are based on real interviews and actual research — not hearsay. He met with Hindu spiritual leaders like Swami Vishnudevananda and even political figures like Subramanian Swamy. There are interviews where he’s sitting with Hindu saints and never shows any hate — in fact, he speaks respectfully. But the government and media had an agenda to make him look like a terrorist, and even now, people keep repeating that false image without checking any real sources. 76.182.233.234 (talk) 13:06, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

Please do not use LLM-generated texts. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 19:33, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

You claim Bhindranwale respected all faiths, including Hinduism. But here is an audio recording of him speaking ill of Lord Shiva.

https://x.com/waniwrites/status/1643382293271134208?s=46 ChanduDev (talk) 00:52, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

He also frequently referred to Hindus as enemies, and stocked weapons and militants in a holy place like the Harimandir Sahib, so that he could not be arrested for his actions. This us a fact that is recorded in all high quality sources. ChanduDev (talk) 00:55, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

Please advise on those sources, there are hundreds if not thousands of videos of him on youtube meeting different faith leaders and BJP party members...please provide your source. You have nothing but heresy and hate. Please provide sources. 76.182.233.234 (talk) 12:37, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

That account is suspended, I am guessing due to hate speech, as you are doing. 76.182.233.234 (talk) 12:36, 30 May 2025 (UTC)