Talk:Mark Rothko

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Resale market

Given the previous conflicts over major edits, wanted to flag this first. The "Resale market" section feels way too long and exhaustive; most of those sale numbers are just not necessary at all; the citations can be used to establish a statement like "Rothko's paintings achieved consistently high prices from the 2000s through the 2020s," but listing the individual sales isn't useful for the average reader, just for an art collector/art market professional. The specific records (Rothko's highest + any market segment records) are certainly worth inclusion, and a general statement about the price of Rothko's paintings is also worthwhile, but this is basically an exhaustive list of high prices at auction, which again is not useful biographical info for the average reader seeking to learn about the subject. 19h00s (talk) 02:19, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Original citizenship

When he moved to the US, in late 1913, at the age of 10, was his citizenship Latvian or Russian? Did he retain that citizenship for the rest of his life? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:35, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

The Tate just says he was American. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:20, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

But they seem to just copy this article anyway. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:18, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Fears of sudden deportation in Maturity

"On February 21, 1938, Rothko finally became a citizen of the United States, prompted by fears that the growing Nazi influence in Europe might provoke the sudden deportation of American Jews."

This feels like it needs a better source. It's a particularly big claim even though it may seem personal here, the idea that FDR would deport the Jews to Nazi Germany or into the line of fire of Nazi Germany is a claim that is big.

I have never heard about a policy like that even being proposed, frankly it should probably be added to the wikipedia's of a few American politicians if it were proposed. That's a big one. Theyear2025 (talk) 12:33, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I quite agree, that's a very bold claim, even if it had a single source. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:58, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

It definitely needs sourcing, but I don’t see anything out of the ordinary about the notion that a Jewish non-citizen living in pre-WWII America - he was raised in Oregon, of all places, a state well known for its history of virulent racism - would fear that rising antisemitism might lead to mass deportations. This was, after all, happening within the context of a west coast rife with anti-Chinese sentiment, and his fears came only several years before forcible internment of Japanese residents and Japanese Americans. There’s no need for a really solid source to back up the validity of Rothko’s fear (e.g. evidence that a politician proposed that), a source is simply needed to establish that Rothko feared such a thing could happen and that his fear spurred him to get citizenship. 19h00s (talk) 16:26, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Latvian

Was Rothko Latvian? MoMA here just says "Born Markus Rothkowitz in Latvia in 1903..." Martinevans123 (talk) 20:18, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm not familiar enough with this specific geographic/political history to offer any real expertise, but I think there needed to be consensus before it was changed. Clearly different sources offer different ways of wording it, but it's obvious that he was not born in the contemporary state known as Latvia, he was born in the Russian Empire. But per reporting in The Art Newspaper, the nation of Latvia clearly claims him as Latvian. Again, this is where more expert knowledge on the history of the region would help clarify things, but if the region now known as Latvia always had a distinct identity from the rest of the Russian Empire and people from the area were generally called "Latvian" even before the region's independence, then "Latvian-born American" or "Latvian and American" is probably the right phrasing on the demonyms, not "Russian-born American". There is of course also the possibility that the widespread usage of "Latvian" to describe Rothko is a result of the Latvian state's/cultural ecosystem's strategic embrace of the artist, but again I am not super familiar with the region's history and cultural identities. 19h00s (talk) 20:34, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Thank you 19h00s for your very thoughtful reply. I have reverted to "Russian-born American" as at least that removes "(of Russian Jewish background)", which I did not think was justified in the lead section. Given that Latvia was still a distinct area of the Russian Empire in 1903, I think "Latvian", even if not a nationality in that year, may still be justified. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:49, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

I am glad to see there is a discussion going on about his nationality on the talk page. This issue is not limited to Rothko, who was one of many Jewish American artists born in countries that are now sovereign but that were then part of the Russian Empire (Louise Nevelson, Max Weber, Peter Blume are just a few examples that come to mind). Though the city of Daugavpils, where he was born, had and still has a significant Russian-speaking population, he was a Latvian Jew—just like Max Weber was a Polish Jew—and I find it deeply problematic to simply label the artist as Russian, especially considering that it perpetuates an imperialist rhetoric.

Generally speaking, unless an artist's work was directly tied to the development of Russian art and visual culture (as was the case with Malevich, for instance), there is no reason to describe them as such. I think we should follow the precedent of artists I mentioned above, eg. "Jewish American" or simply "American artist born in Daugavpils (modern-day Latvia)" and then describe his ethnicity and the political circumstances in detail in the bio section.

Looking forward to hearing what others think. Per Exemplum 15:39, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

So I think some of this is actually addressed in MOS:ETHNICITY/MOS:CONTEXTBIO. Religion/ethnicity are generally not invoked in the lead unless relevant to the subject’s notability, so I’m not sure “Jewish-American” makes sense. And having just taken a second look at the MOS guidelines myself, I’m actually not sure if the Latvian connection even makes sense in the first sentence; might make more sense to just add something like this to the second lead graf: “Born to a Jewish family in Daugavpils, Latvia (then under the control of the Russian Empire)…” But after reading those MOS entries again, I’m not totally convinced anymore that we need anything beyond “American” in the opening sentence or that the more detailed background on religion/ethnicity/nationality is necessary in the lead.

Thoughts? 19h00s (talk) 16:17, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

@19h00s I agree. That is neutral enough and sounds like a good solution. Per Exemplum 20:12, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Yes, that looks like a fair improvement to me. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:31, 18 May 2025 (UTC)