Talk:Malabar Muslims

Request for comment on generalizing the origin of Mappilas

Is it appropriate to include the statement "In general, a Muslim Mappila is a descendant of Hindu lower-caste natives who converted to Islam"--Imperial^[AFCND] 14:08, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

@ImperialAficionado

Discussion

• Inappropriate: It is inappropriate to trace the origin of the Mappilas to lower-caste Hindus. Both genetic and historical studies support the claim that the Mappilas have Yemeni and Hadhrami roots, which were introduced through Arab trade. The Mappilas include individuals from various backgrounds, such as lower-caste converts, higher-caste converts[1][2], Hadhremi ancestry[3][4][5], and mixed heritage. It is not appropriate to focus on one specific group and overshadow the others.--Imperial^[AFCND] 14:32, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
• [removed comments by blocked sock, User:1500mass]
• Inappropriate. I was going to review all of the sources provided by 1500mass, but after looking at four and finding they all bafflingly seemed to contradict that editor's own position within the first few sentences I can't see how it's of any use. Scholarly consensus even from the supposedly opposing view seems to be that the community's origin is a broad mix of both converts and intermarriage of a range of backgrounds. If there is a specific source to the "only 1% are descended of Arab traders" claim then cite the exact passage. Chaste Krassley (talk) 23:48, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

  Please cite the sources along with the exact sentences from the source which I provided contradicting my point that Mappila Muslims are not decedents of lower caste Hindus.

  Also provide your source which is supporting your claim. 1500mass (talk) 00:24, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

  The scholarly article by Stephen Dale who studied on mappila muslims of malabar[6] from page 162 to

  In page 162 - 165 he says :

  The accuracy of this assumption that most converts came from the lowest, so-called "polluting" caste is partly corroborate the difficulty of citing exceptions, although there were known a few, even in the sixteenth century

  which means that most converts came from the lowest caste, which was considered "polluting"—is somewhat supported by the fact that it's hard to find counterexamples

  Also in page 162 Stephen Dale writes[7] :

  Writing in Arabic, probably in the 1580’s, Zayn al-Din sketched a history of Muslim settlement in Kerala as a preface to his treatise on the atrocities which the Portuguese had committed against Muslims during their campaigns to arrogate to themselves control of the Indian spice trade. In explaining the rapid growth of Muslim settlements along the Malabar coast Zayn al-Din did not refer to intermarriage, but substantiated Barbosa’s assertion that Hindus frequently converted and was precise in ascribing motives to those who did. He said that Hindus embraced Islam because of the “inconveniences” of their social system, a comment which could only refer to the restrictions of the caste system, which was particularly rigid and oppressive in Kerala because of the ferocity with which the ritually and socially dominant castes of Nambiitiri Brahmans and Nayars protected their prerogatives.

  Members of several of the lowest group of castes were, for example, condemned to remain at a specified distance from Nambiitiris or Nayars because the latter conceived themselves to be polluted by the approach as well as the touch of such polluting individuals. If any individual belonging to one of these low castes violated these prohibitions they could be and sometimes were killed on the spot by Nayars, since members of this martial caste constantly went armed. Members of the low castes thus had unusually strong motives to escape caste society by converting to Islam—as they had previously done by embracing Judaism and Christianity in parts of central and southern Kerala.

  According to Zayn al-Din, the appeal of conversion was further enhanced because the rajas who controlled the trading ports allowed converts to enjoy the same privileges of status and autonomy which were accorded to members of the Muslim commercial communities who already resided in their territories.

  The great majority of conversions must have come from the lower castes, those who most strongly felt the “inconvenience” of their subordinate, degraded status.

  He has clearly debunked with the fact that Malabar Muslims are descendants of lower caste Hindu converts.

  We cannot keep WP:UNDUE citing that of some families like Thangals who have Persian or Arab ancestry , We cannot say all 8.873472 million Malabar Muslims, which is 28% of entire Kerala population are descents of Arab intermarriages. 1500mass (talk) 01:09, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

  Nobody is arguing that the entire population has Arab descent.

  Regarding your first reply:

  First source first sentence:

  "The Mappilas are either the descendants of the Arab traders or of Hindu converts to Islam."

  Second source second paragraph:

  "The Arabs began marrying native women"

  Third source first paragraph:

  "Arabs took their trade into the cultural level by involving in marital relationship with local communities in which created strong ties between Arabs and local people."

  Fourth source first sentence:

  "Islamization in Malabar was influenced by various factors, the most predominant being trade and intermarriage in the early centuries."

  Fifth source first sentence again:

  "The Muslims of Malabar (generally know as Mapillas) are either descendants of Arab traders or of 'Hindu' converts to Islam."

  These all point to a mix of backgrounds that complicate the attempt to portray the community as being 'generally lower caste converts'.

  Regarding Dale, he is quoted at length in the article, including his line about the great majority of converts coming from lower castes. Notably in that source as well there are several points that would cut against the contentious edit which you have omitted. He describes the poorer parts of the early Muslim community who were the later the majority of it as arising "through the interrelated processes of intermarriage and conversion" (pp. 159); he describes Barbosa's claim that the second main factor in the emergence of the community was "the frequency with which Muslims contracted multiple marriages and maintained low case concubines" (pp. 161), and most gallingly immediately after your last quote goes on to say: "It must certainly have been lower caste women who married or became the concubines of Muslims" (pp.162-163). In describing that the majority of converts came from lower castes, he also says: "It is definitely known that at least some members of the upper castes converted to Islam".

  Dale does paint a compelling picture of the majority of the community's origins being in the conversion of and intermarriage with lower caste Hindus. That is already described at length in the article, but the specific edit in contention both inaccurately summarises it and omits the nuance. It may be appropriate to summarise the ethnogenesis of the community in the lead to the extent possible, but to be accurate to the sources that must include intermarriage, and if caste origins are even necessary to mention it seems to me it should be clear they were not uniform. Chaste Krassley (talk) 03:40, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

  @Chaste Krassley I'm not declining the fact of 'Arab intermarriages/ concubines with lower caste hindu women', But from these sources it can be seen that it happened in two phases:

  - Arab intermarriages/ concubines with lower caste hindu women happens at the earlier time. Even this happens in modern day as Arabikalyanam[8], though this time it is from 'poor' muslim families. [9]

  - How many arab traders will there be each year at Malabar coast per year? less than 300 ? take it as max 500. (particularly monsoon as ships navigate to Malabar from middle east by monsoon wind). It is stupid to say that entire 8 million Malabar Muslims are from intermarriages/concubines of these 300-500 Arabs with lower caste Muslim women.

  - Later massive conversion from lower caste Hindus happened in the medieval period after the introduction of Islam through these lower caste concubines. Even King of Calicut Zamorin encourages conversion of lower caste fisherman community every Friday [10]

  - Vast majority of Mappila Muslims are from converts from lower caste:

  Majority of them were converts from the lower castes of Malabar

  [11]

  Genetic study on Mappila Muslims rejected the theory that they are from intermarriage between arab and local Indian women. You can see in this DNA study from Central Forensic Science Laboratory of India and University of Cambridge.[12] They analyzed Mappila Muslim from Malabar as a separate groups and did dna studies separately to trace any middle eastern traces. You can see the reports on Mappila group separately (they did not intermix all Muslim groups from India). In the DNA analysis report it says :

  Both the maternal and paternal admixture contributions from the closest Hindu parental populations to the respective Shia, Sunni, Dawoodi Bohra (GUJ), Dawoodi Bohra (TN) and Mappla Muslim populations seem to be the highest, with only a minimal contribution from either Iran or Arabia (Tables 4 and 5).

  [13]

  This means that the genetic ancestry of the Shia, Sunni, Dawoodi Bohra (Gujarat), Dawoodi Bohra (Tamil Nadu), and Mappla Muslim populations primarily comes from local Hindu populations rather than from foreign (Iranian or Arabian) sources

  ...(Assumptions that ) In a nutshell, Indian Muslims could be either the descendants of Iranian and Arabian men who married local Hindu women or the descendants of local converts. We therefore sought to examine contemporary Indian Muslim populations for the occurrence of Middle Eastern genetic signatures, expecting them to be manifested primarily in the male line. For this, we chose six Muslim populations from three different geographical regions of India (Figure 1) that witnessed several human migrations, military invasions from the Middle East and proselytizing of native Hindu populations.1, 2, 3 Despite reported marriages between Muslim males and Hindu females,2, 6 the expected higher Y-chromosomal contribution from the Middle East to contemporary Indian Muslims was not found in this study. Unlike Muslim communities in China and Central Asia,53, 54, 55 which show a marked presence of Western Y chromosomes, Indian Muslims derive most of their Y chromosomes from local neighboring non-Muslim populations, suggesting a regional genetic affinity among Indian Muslim and non-Muslim populations. This suggests that the expansion of Islam in India happened through religious conversions during the implementation of the Muslim faith

  [14]

  These modern scientific studies again proved that 'In general, a Muslim Mappila is a descendant of Hindu lower-caste natives who converted to Islam'

  Need to remind here that WP:UNDUE and WP:Cherrypicking are not encouraged in Wikipedia. 1500mass (talk) 14:00, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

  Unfortunately, this reply nowhere makes it clear that as a reply to @Chaste Krassley. And what do you mean by It is stupid to say that entire 8 million Malabar Muslims are from intermarriages/concubines of these 300-500 Arabs with lower caste Muslim women. and How many arab traders will there be each year at Malabar coast per year? less than 300 ? take it as max 500? We don't have the collective information of DNA of every Mappila Muslim, nor anyone made a survey of how many foreigners came to Malabar during eary period. From.where did you make this conclusion? "Max 500". We're not making our own stories? Are we? Imperial^[AFCND] 15:30, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

  Abdul Razak also acknowledges in the very next paragraph to the one you cite that there were converts from "various Hindu castes of Kerala", including Nairs. This is not cherrypicking, it is evidence of nuance that is unnecessarily flattened by the contentious statement.

  Regarding the genetic study Eaaswarkhanth et al, its sample of Mappila comes from 62 individuals in Tamil Nadu, not Kerala (and we would expect that may not be representative), but it also finds 10% had Y-chromosomal haplogroups typical of Middle-Eastern and not local populations. Their previous study[15] (seemingly of the same samples of Indian Muslims), also finds something similar:

  "Mappla Muslims acquire major contribution from the closest Hindu parental population's gene pool (77%) and relatively lower proportions from Iran (15%) and Arabia (8%)"

  I think the issue here comes from the phrasing of the statement. "In general, a Muslim Mappila is a descendant of Hindu lower-caste natives who converted to Islam" is a different statement and gives a different impression to saying that most of their ancestry comes from local converts. I'd suggest rewording the statement to something like the following:

  "Muslim Mappilas are mostly descended from native converts, many of whom adopted Islam to escape the strict caste system in Kerala."

  This I think would accurately reflect the sources and avoid giving the impression that there is not significant minority admixture or variance in origin. It also actually has an informative reason to refer to caste backgrounds in the MOS:Lead, which I think mitigates the view a reader might take (and which Banshek evidently has) that it is only there for denigration. Chaste Krassley (talk) 02:40, 8 February 2025 (UTC)

• Comment: (Summoned by bot) I'm not seeing an WP:RFCBEFORE here. Was there any attempt to resolve this content dispute prior to starting the RFC? TarnishedPath^talk 01:23, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

  Yes. See the two sections above. Imperial^[AFCND] 09:09, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

• Inappropriate: Per the analysis of Chaste Krassley. Heavy attempt to defame a community by source manipulation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BANSHEK (talk • contribs)
• Inappropriate per the sourcing linked above by Imperial. TarnishedPath^talk 01:01, 9 February 2025 (UTC)
• Inappropriate (Summoned by bot) per the sourcing offered above by Imperial. Pincrete (talk) 04:05, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 February 2025

BANSHEK (talk) 05:23, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 06:21, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 May 2025

The discussion Talk:Malabar Muslims#Request for comment on generalizing the origin of Mappilas seem to be over. And I personally found out that it's inappropriate to generalize all the Mappilas from the lower caste converts. Remove that part from the lead section. Hionsa (talk) 13:42, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Adam Black ^{talk • contribs} 01:16, 10 May 2025 (UTC)