Talk:Kim Jong Un/Archive 11

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Expatriates category

Category:North Korean expatriates in Switzerland was previously added by Kingen Erik to this article, as the article states Kim Jong Un previously lived in Switzerland. It was removed by Loymdayddaud on the basis that "Kim Jong Un doesn't live in Switzerland". No expatriate spends their whole life in a country other than their birthplace. As far as I've seen the Category:Expatriates by nationality category tree is widely included on subjects who have resided overseas for any particular time. Should this category be included? AusLondonder (talk) 06:16, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

This was my argument:

The definition of expatriates is "a person who resides outside their country of citizenship."

That is what Wikipedia says, and Marriam-Webster seems to back it up too (if we ignore definition 1, which is definitely not the case we are using this for).

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/expatriate

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/expatriate

I do want to say that I appreciate you posting a new topic here though, no matter what the result is.

Loymdayddaud (talk) 08:04, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't think he's a Swiss expatriate.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:15, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Why does the article say he could have been born in '82

Kim Jong Un has an older brother who was born on September 25, 1981 (also, happy belated birthday to him), so he could not possibly have been born in 1982 given his birthday of January 8th. BombCraft8 ^{(talk) (contributions)} 02:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Please see previous discussions of this.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:14, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

ok BombCraft8 ^{(talk) (contributions)} 02:53, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2024

Kim Jong Un was born in 1984. His uncle and aunt, who defected from North Korea in 1998 have confirmed the birth year. That's why the US listes his birth year as 1984. This should be added to the page, even as another reason for the US's year of birth.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/the-secret-life-of-kim-jong-uns-aunt-who-has-lived-in-the-us-since-1998/2016/05/26/522e4ec8-12d7-11e6-a9b5-bf703a5a7191_story.html

https://archive.ph/bWzjJ 2606:8700:9:5:5940:8F0D:3675:2B5D (talk) 19:56, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: The US stopped using the 1984 date because the ROK gave more reliable intelligence for 1983. Just so we're clear, the quote of the uncle and aunt "confirming" the birth year is:

"They can reveal, for example, that Kim Jong Un was born in 1984 — not 1982 or 1983, as has been widely thought. The reason they're certain? It was the same year that their first son was born. 'He and my son were playmates from birth. I changed both of their diapers,' Ko said with a laugh."

Incredibly less reliable than the other sources given. Yue🌙 22:19, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's "incredibly less reliable". They claim to know the kid.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:34, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Image of Kim

you must update the image of Kim Jong Un, from 2019 into 2024 Gorabels147 (talk) 08:28, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

There is a comment next to the image that you've ignored twice now asking you to get consensus before changing it. Please do not alter the image without consensus. — Czello ^(music) 08:38, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

• (Personal attack removed)

I have changed the title of the portrait from "official portrait". This is not an official portrait. We do not have access to an official portrait. Government photos in North Korea are covered by copyright. This image is available because it was produced by the Russian government.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:05, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

Consensus on "dictator"?

Hi, @Czello! I agree that we should come to a formal consensus before things escalate further. I, along with @GreatLeader1945, believe that the usage of "dictator" goes against WP:NPOV. I suggest checking here for the previous discussion, and getting more people to weigh in on this decision - OpalYosutebito (talk) 20:53, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

He is an absolute monarch, just like his father and grandfather before him. Mztourist (talk) 05:31, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

Right. I think one of the reasons why people like Hitler and Pol Pot are considered dictators (contributions to society aside) and not Kim Jong Un is because they didn't inherit their positions (Jong Un is the grandson of the founder of the DPRK, Il Sung) - OpalYosutebito (talk) 16:07, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

Relevant is MOS:LABEL. Evidence needs to be provided. My less useful analysis (evidence trumps anyone's personal analysis), "absolute monarch" is unlikely to be a common descriptor of him and is personal analysis. I suspect "dictator" is really widely used in regard to North Korea. seefooddiet (talk) 19:00, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

I never thought of it like that. I just thought of how it was worded... - OpalYosutebito 『talk』 『articles I want to eat』 19:02, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

dictator?

Why isn't he labeled as a dictator, despite multiple sources refering to him as such and him conforming to basically every single elements of a dicator? Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 16:06, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

See [1] and other previous discussions.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:55, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I guess this will go to a RfC when I'll have the time. Or it would be pretty easy to say that there never was a "true" dictator with "absolute" powers. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 11:45, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Its ridiculous to call him as a dictator. First because its not his official post, and second because its BIASED concept. An encyclopedia of respect should not embrace BIASED opinions. ROK president is accused to stage a coup but he isnt labelled as dictator. 2804:7F1:E241:F635:88FF:C55F:78DA:B347 (talk) 03:55, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

He has been impeached, that is one of the hallmarks of not being one, there is outside oversight of your action. Slatersteven (talk) 11:21, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

This person is right. It makes no sense unless you're looking at this from a biased american perspective to call him a dictator. Especially when not calling america's leaders and it's allies leaders like south korea the same. We might as well go ahead and label hamas, hezbollah and the vietcong a terrorist organization on those wiki pages while we're at it (sarcasm) oh and how about blm too. since we're gonna be clowns and call kim a dictator. This was a hasty and biased decision on the part of a few pro-America anti-communist wikipedia users with a clear political agenda Yousername69 (talk) 19:23, 23 February 2025 (UTC)

NK News, used in the original argument, was partially blocked in South Korea because some reports originated from North Korea. Given the overwhelming number of sources calling him a dictator and the use of the term on similar leaders pages that also have sources disputing their control on power, such as Kim Il Sung who is on the front page of the wiki article dictator, I believe it should be included. ZebulonMorn (talk)

NK News is not North Korean!--Jack Upland (talk) 00:01, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

@ZebulonMorn: It's best practice to sign your comments with your username. Most users have links to their user page and their user talk page. It's possible to customize your signature, but please at least include your username. —Eyer (he/him) If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message. 00:04, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

No 141.156.198.179 (talk) 23:40, 14 April 2025 (UTC)

The idea that South Korea censored one of the sources is not compelling to me in terms of the content question.

I recommend where we can to avoid labels like this and speak in more concrete terms. We already address concentration of power more concretely elsewhere in the introduction, so to add a less specific additional label is not something I favor. JArthur1984 (talk) 00:50, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

On his father's and granfather's intro, they both have the word "dictatorship". If we change the line "the same cult of personality as his father and grandfather." to "the same personalist dictatorship as his father and grandfather." then I would agree. ZebulonMorn (talk) 00:55, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Both a label that precisely pin points his rule of power and concrete descriptions can and should be used. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 11:47, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

It's considered unreliable by the Government of South Korea, so I don't think it's reliable enough to overshadow the deluge of reports referencing Kim as a dictator. ZebulonMorn (talk) ZebulonMorn (talk) 00:50, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Specialist sources like NK News that have actually considered the topic are more reliable than sources that just slap on labels.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:43, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

You have one questionably reliable source to support your argument. An argument that's disputed by nearly every appropriate source. We definitely need far more reliable evidence fist to remove "dictator" ZebulonMorn (talk) 01:49, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

You could at least make it less repetitive: "Kim Jong Un is a North Korean politician and dictator who has been supreme leader of North Korea since December 2011".--Jack Upland (talk) 01:51, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

That's fair enough ZebulonMorn (talk) 07:13, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

There isn't any consensus here to remove Supreme leader. Supreme Leader is a position in the North Korean and dictator is the role played by him. See Supreme Leader of Iran, Supreme Leader of Afghanistan and Ali Khamenei. Furthermore, he is the third Supreme Leader of NK. Theofunny (talk) 11:58, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you to all editors that made the addition stick. I was very surprised to see how many dictators were not even remotelly refered as such on the opening paragraphs in Wikipedia.

Generally, I have no issue in either having dictator as a label or having a formulation like "ruling xxxstate in a dictatorship since xxx". I do not believe that "dictator" has the same type of vague moral tone that MOS:CRIMINAL strives to avoid. But I could be in the wrong and "politician" as a general term plus a specificity of the dictatorship rule can also work, as long as it is in the opening paragraph. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 11:58, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The most egregious case of Vladimir Putin not being referred to as such still exists. Theofunny (talk) 12:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

That would need more work, possibly a different phrasing, since sources will not be so unanimous. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 12:45, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

References

Pronunciation in IPA of his name is wrong

The first note in the article right next to his name lists the IPA pronunciation of his name in Korean as [kim dzʌŋ.ɯːn]; the fifth character (z) is wrong, it should be changed to [kim dʑʌŋ.ɯːn]. 168.197.140.105 (talk) 01:25, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

 Done. Yue🌙 05:45, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 May 2025

Change "Kim Jon Un rules a totalitarian dictatorship" to "Foreign adversaries allege that Kim Jon Un runs a totalitarian dictatorship" in order to make the language more neutral, as the current language shows political bias. Pigataur (talk) 11:31, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

See talk archive for every reason why not. Slatersteven (talk) 11:34, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

This suggestion is not more neutral; in fact, it is less. — Czello ^(music) 13:12, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Health

Do we have to repetitively say Kim is overweight and is reportedly suffering from diabetes and hypertension? Is there some way we can summarise this? It really does seem to be very repetitive. Jack Upland (talk) 19:05, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

1982

The Wikipedia lists January 8, 1982 as a possible birthdate for Kim Jong-Un.

However, his older brother was born in September 1981, and no baby has been born at less than 20 weeks gestation and lived, making that "birthdate" completely impossible. HildaSimp (talk) 01:31, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

Very interesting, but something tells me that the 1982 claim is state propaganda. North Korea does that a lot with the Supreme Leaders. If I'm not mistaken, they expect everyone to believe that KJU could drive at the age of 3, and that KJI scored a perfect game in golf on his first try... - OpalYosutebito 『talk』 『articles I want to eat』 02:04, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

Nevertheless, the 1982 should be removed from the possible birth years because it's literally impossible for him to have been born in January 1982.

It is merely state propaganda and should be stated as such. HildaSimp (talk) 03:03, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

See the "Early life" section instead. I don't want to remove anything... - OpalYosutebito 『talk』 『articles I want to eat』 06:34, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

So we're just going to ignore that glaring error? HildaSimp (talk) 09:33, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

Given that we can't trust any of this, the DOB of his older brother could be false as well. We do not engage in wp:or, so provide RS backing your suggested edit it up. Slatersteven (talk) 10:54, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

There's a footnote near his birthday in the lead that points to the Early life section, which goes in-depth regarding the inconsistencies, if that makes sense. We're not siding with the propaganda, since there is an explanation in there - OpalYosutebito 『talk』 『articles I want to eat』 12:11, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

By the way, the golf claim was never state propaganda.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:22, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Even more egregious is that January 8, 1982 is listed in the infobox as well.

Like I said, his brother was born on September 25, 1981. Ignoring the fact that it's pretty rare to conceive another child as soon as the first is born, Kim Jong-Un would have been born at 15 weeks gestation AT MOST.

A fetus of less than 20 weeks has zero chance of survival outside the womb, much less at 15 weeks.

If nobody else will, I think I'll correct the page to leave either 1983 or 1984 as Kim Jong-Un's possible year of birth, but still leave in the fact that him being born in 1982 is popular propaganda. HildaSimp (talk) 07:27, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Just leave it alone. There is already a note explaining the discrepancies, and it's not like we have any definitive answers here. Your WP:Original research about his gestational period is irrelevant, particularly given the date of his brother's birth may be similarly uncertain.  — Amakuru (talk) 07:48, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

What proof do you have that it's not state propaganda? - OpalYosutebito 『talk』 『articles I want to eat』 12:27, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

No, it is possible that his DOB could be 8 January 1982 because he was born from a different mother. Benzekre (talk) 07:28, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

No he wasn't. Youre thinking of the other brother. HildaSimp (talk) 05:51, 31 May 2025 (UTC)