Talk:Hungarian Revolution of 1848

Incomplete sentence section American Civil War

A sentence from the section "American Civil War" appears incomplete a fragment with the problem is included below. Likely intent was "of this comparatively small number [ there were 999? ] who rose to the rank of", with 999 clearly needing to be set to an accuratish number.

"... testimony to the military qualities of the Magyar people that of this comparatively small number who rose to the rank of Major-General, while five became Brigadier-Generals, fifteen Colonels, two Lieutenant-Colonels, ..." Ronaldws r+d (talk) 14:03, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Marx and Engels

Are not WP:RS for claims of historical fact or for that matter for anything other possibly their own views (though even that - “what did Marx and Engels really mean?” - is an entire secondary literature onto itself). Aside from obvious bias, they’re also outdated and close to the events. Volunteer Marek 01:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

They were writing history in the work cited—a biased, 19th century history about a subject that they were personally invested in—but I would recoil at the idea of it not being a source of some reliable utility—they were biased, but they had academic scruples. I am concerned about its framing being reflected in it being the only source for many passages in the article though. Remsense留 01:52, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

The tag you added is fine for now, but all of this stuff should be cited to recent scholarly secondary sources. Volunteer Marek 02:01, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Remsense留 02:04, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

My edit cited contemporary historians whose work uses primary sources in clear, scholarly ways. The original cites old sources with strong ideological biases, ones historians today (including Hungarian ones like Deák, Rady etc.) view as unreliable. It's obvious the reversions were political. 144.138.60.195 (talk) 06:42, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

The reason we can't cite it to recent scholarly secondary sources is that these sources reject the Marx-Engels narrative. 144.138.60.195 (talk) 06:47, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

You are too harsh but the other edit is nationalist propaganda using 19th century historical research that has been debunked since. Page needs serious work. 88.216.39.30 (talk) 09:46, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Marx and Engels are not reliable sources. They have strong ideological biases against non-Magyar and non-German groups e.g. 'In Austria, apart from Poland and Italy, it is the Germans and Magyars in 1848, as during the past thousand years already, who have assumed the historical initiative. They represent the revolution.

The Southern Slavs, who for a thousand years have been taken in tow by the Germans and the Magyars, only rose up in 1848 to achieve their national independence in order thereby at the same time to suppress the German-Magyar revolution. They represent the counter-revolution. They were joined by two nations, which had likewise long ago degenerated and were devoid of all historical power of action: the Saxons and the Rumanians of Transylvania.' (https://marxists.architexturez.net/archive/marx/works/1849/01/13.htm) Unfortunately, most Magyar publications from the communist era are biased in the same ways; the Orbán government promotes similar narratives. The solution is to use contemporary, non-nationalist sources that provide a much more comprehensive, measured account of events e.g. Rady (who happens to be Hungarian, as do I); Judson. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.150.38.31 (talk) 02:45, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. The idea that Engels and Marx are credible sources on this topic is ridiculous. 144.138.60.195 (talk) 12:01, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

The earlier edits seemed a bit anti-revolution and anti-Hungarian. However, clearly Marx and Engels aren't good sources on 1848: they held strong prejudice against non-Hungarians and non-Germans. From historians writing now, using. wider range of sources from different linguistic and ethnic groups, we also know much of what Marx and Engels said about 1848 in Hungary is not right. Revolutions are not an easy conflict between good and evil; Hungary in 1848 is no exception. I try to bring in edit that is neither Hungarian nationalist nor anti-Hungarian. 88.216.39.14 (talk) 06:34, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Marx and Engels were even restrained about the situation in Hungary when compared to the liberal politicians and intellectuals of the Western democratic free world of the time (USA, UK, France). In the eyes of the free democratic world of the West, the Habsburgs and their helping nationalities were depicted as the bad guys and the bad villains.-

The contemporary Western perception of Tsar Alexander or Nicholas were no better than that of Putin, and the perception of Franz Joseph was no different from that of Lukashenko--Hefty-priced (talk) 10:13, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

That is not about Marx and Engels, the Anonym IP forces to rewrite the war of independence chapter to a national conflict subject with an anti-Hungarian propaganda and tone. The IP removes many sources and info not only Marx and Engels, like the Hungarian government made the first minority law in Europe favoring to ethnic groups, while he cherry pick and emphasize that "some Hungarians" wanted to forbid the language of the minorities, which statement really contradict the existence of that minority law itself. Also 40% of the soldiers fought for Hungary against the suppressor foreign Habsburgs were ethnics. I also checked a source provided by IP (Jeszenszky) of course I did not find in the source the content which was added by the IP. The IP started those anti Hungarian edits, complete changing and removing contents, and instantly started to talk about "stop using wikipedia for propaganda" :) he showed his real purpose. OrionNimrod (talk) 16:36, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

A lot to unpack here. First, their revision refers to the minority laws. 'In July 1849, the Hungarian Revolutionary Parliament proclaimed and enacted limited laws on ethnic and minority rights, the first of their kind in the world.' Second, I don't see a reference to language bans. It's also true that 'many Magyar politicians were hostile toward the national aims of Slavs and Romanians.' Third, their revision is consistent with the claim that 40% of revolutionary soldiers were non-Magyar. Their edits suggest we can't break the revolution down along ethnic or linguistic lines. In contrast, the original makes broad, untrue statements from a nationalist point of view e.g. "In 1848 and 1849, the Hungarian people or Magyars, who wanted independence." Some Magyars wanted independence; some did not. Relatedly, the original's tone is also inappropriately moral e.g. "the Austrian monarchy and those advising them manipulated the Croatians, Serbians and Romanians." "Manipulated" is not a morally neutral verb. Fourth, for non-Hungarians reading, Jeszenszky is a Hungarian politician with a background in international relations. The other sources are fine, and fit the citations. Deák, Rady, Judson, etc. are also world experts in 19th century central European history. I suggest removing Jeszenszky. Fifth, their revision doesn't seem anti-Hungarian (I'm also Hungarian, for what it's worth; their IP is Budapest.) The revisions are just based on what Hungarian and non-Hungarian historians argue today, using various sources from the 1840s onwards. If you don't like the contemporary scholarship, then go find better sources to support your view. 144.138.60.195 (talk) 04:56, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

First, can you support that with sources? We have a different picture from Deák, Judson, Rady, and other leading historians writing today, and their sources. Second, the main point is Marx and Engels exhibit clear anti-Romanian and anti-Slav bias. There are better primary sources, and much better secondary ones. 88.216.39.26 (talk) 01:19, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

That is not about just Marx Engles, you removed a lot of other modern sources and complete rewrote the war chapter and converted it to anti Hungarian ethnic conflict chapter. That article is about the 1848 revolution war as the title suggest. Even earlier you renamed total the subchapter removing the “independence war” title and rewrite to “identity nationalities” and you removed article realted battle/siege images. That was extra fun, when you even made a time travel to force extra anti Hungarian tone regarding Kossuth and slavery, Kossuth left US in 1852 and you wrote about the USA civil war which was 15 years later. You removed the Hungarian war of independence section and you converted that to USA civil war, but that is the Hungarian war of independence article… What is the business the Hungarian 1848 revolution with the USA civil war and slavery morover in the future? Or even just itself with Afro American slavery? Absolute nothing. Also I would be really curious on your marked sources where are the contents what you added, I think the marked sources do not support your content as I checked some. You kept some source but you rewroted the content which is the falsifying of the content. The Hungarian government made the first ethnic laws in Europe wich favored to the minorities, but this fact does not match with your anti Hungarian agenda, first your comeplete removed many times then you decreased it to "limited laws". The anonym edit of your purpose is clear...OrionNimrod (talk) 09:16, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

To be fair, it wasn't 88.216.39.26 who wrote about Kossuth in the US. I did. I added the information because the entry already includes related e.g. 'Many of Kossuth's comrades-in-exile joined him in the United States, including the sons of one of his sisters. Some of these "Forty-Eighters" remained after Kossuth departed, and fought on the Union side in the US Civil War. Hungarian lawyer George Lichtenstein, who served as Kossuth's private secretary, fled to Königsberg after the revolution and eventually settled in Edinburgh where he became noted as a musician.' If this is relevant, then so are Kossuth's difficulties navigating tensions between abolition and slavery while he was in the US. Plainly, it isn't time travel either. The tensions in question predate the onset of the American Civil War. You can read the sources here e.g. Roberts, Timothy Mason, "Louis Kossuth and the Campaign of 1852." Distant Revolutions: 1848 and the Challenge to American Exceptionalism (Charlottesville: University of Virginia: Univ. of Virginia, pub. 2009), 146-67 Tochman, G., ""Kossuth.:Hungary and the United States. Address of Louis Kossuth to the People of the United States. Preliminary Note. Kossuth's Address.""New York Times New York City (20 Oct. 1851): n. pages.

Clearly, you didn't check Deák, Rady, Judson, etc, as they support the edits. Again, if you don't like contemporary scholarship, find sources that support your view. Why should we have an entry that reads like a Hungarian nationalist pamphlet from the 19th century? It's very weird. 144.138.60.195 (talk) 05:05, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

How interesting that instantly after you an another IP made the same edits as you :) Your sockpuppet blocked proxy IP does not help. This behavior also show us your real purpose of edit. OrionNimrod (talk) 09:45, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I have nothing to do with the other IP. This page is doing the rounds in history circles atm. Maybe that's it. 144.138.60.195 (talk) 05:01, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

IP's sources are complete books without attached page numbers, and inaccessible through the internet. I dare to say that they don't actually contain the written information.

But anyway, the original text is clear, giving a fitting explanation of ethnic feelings at the start of the war and imperial policy. The IP edits instead draw an overly long analysis at the end of which no reader gets the answer to who supported the revolution and who didn't. Gyalu22 (talk) 15:11, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Nice to see how many blocked proxy IP were used by the IP user who want force to the article the same content

Special:Contributions/88.216.39.30

Special:Contributions/88.216.39.14 OrionNimrod (talk) 15:32, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Hungarian money called "Kossuth bankó" with inscriptions in the language of the nationalities on it

Still I do not understand what is the business with the American slavery and civil war 1865 with the Hungarian revolution war in 1848... The Siege of Buda was a really important event in the Hungarian revolution, but IP user removed that battle image, a real war event of the article, instead to write about the US slavery here. :) This is clearly a bad faith edit, morover as we can see he connected the US slavery content with the situation of the minorities in Hungary, while he removed the existence of the ethnic laws which favored to minorites, which was the first and uniqe at that time in Europe. IP also emphasized that a evil "hungarianization" while I see the money by Hungarian government was the first which used the languages of the minorites. OrionNimrod (talk) 15:40, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

'Still I do not understand what is the business with the American slavery and civil war 1865 with the Hungarian revolution war in 1848...'

Then remove all the other references to American politics. 144.138.60.195 (talk) 05:01, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Heaven forbid that we use academic books that aren't available for free online! They're available through university logins and Amazon.

' I dare to say that they don't actually contain the written information.'

They do. They also represent the current academic consensus on 1848 in Hungary. It may be that consensus is flawed. However, it has much more evidence in its favour than Marx and Engels.

'But anyway, the original text is clear, giving a fitting explanation of ethnic feelings at the start of the war and imperial policy.'

Except, it doesn't. For example, the text says 'In 1848 and 1849, the Hungarian people or Magyars, who wanted independence.' It isn't true that all Magyars wanted independence. Moreover, both armies were ethnically and linguistically mixed; national identity in the modern sense wasn't a factor for many participants. Hence Rady,

'The extent to which members of the various national groups were aware of their separate identities, or regarded them as politically significant, differed. There were plenty of people, including Hungarian speakers, who when asked their identity simply explained they were Catholics or 'the people from here.' Slovaks in northern Hungary alternated between a regional identity and a broader Slavonic one. Many Ruthenes [Ukrainians] in north-eastern Hungary considered themselves completely Hungarian, although they spoke not a word of the language, while Romanian intellectuals in the Banat preferred to describe themselves as 'Hungarians of Romanian language...Many repudiated the authority claimed by the new Hungarian government, holding to a larger Austrian identity.' (pp. 250-251, as per the edit) 144.138.60.195 (talk) 04:56, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

144.138.60.195 my quoted words continue by: "the IP edits instead draw an overly long analysis at the end of which no reader gets the answer to who supported the revolution and who didn't". Your version omits the inference that the Hungarian population fought for the independence of Hungary (present in the normal version) and replaces it with humbugs about the position of Hungarians in the imperial army who didn't. Gyalu22 (talk) 16:13, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

'he IP edits instead draw an overly long analysis at the end of which no reader gets the answer to who supported the revolution and who didn't'

The IP edits tell us who supported the revolution and who did not. The IP edits do not analyse. Rather, they present information from credible sources. "Overly long" seems irrelevant if the edits result in a more nuanced, accurate picture.

'the Hungarian population fought for the independence of Hungary'

This is simply false, though. Some people in Hungary fought for independence, others did not. LotusEating (talk) 23:11, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

You say incorrect to write “Hungarians wanted independence”, the full article is about that. Academic Hungarian history teaching also that. Just check out Petofi and his poems. It was a 2 years long bloody independence war and the Habsburgs was able with a Russians help to crush the Hungarians, but you say th Hungarians did not want independence :):):) so just they made a war for fun.

Of course every single people are different, but in other battle articles I did not see that we need to mention all the time that probably some people did not want that battle.

Fact, purpose of the article: Hungarians fought a 2 years long bloody independence war. Bad faith: Ip completeley removes that "Hungarians wanted independence" to pretend the independence war has no reason but IP replaces it the "Hungarians supported the Habsburgs"... that is why Hungarians fought 2 years war against the Habsburgs? Where is the logic?

OrionNimrod (talk) 09:09, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

No one claims anyone made a war for fun. The claim is that it is incorrect to write 'the Hungarian people or Magyars, who wanted independence.' It is incorrect because some Magyars did not want independence. This is obvious. We're not talking handfuls either. For example, between a third to a half of Hungarian men of fighting age fought for the Habsburgs; around 2000/9000 Habsburg officers were Hungarian, where the honvéd had 830 field-grade and general officers, only 68% of whom were Hungarian (Bona, Deák.) All this against the backdrop of peasants of all ethnicities forming the bulk of the Habsburg Army (Deák, Judson, Rady)

Modern academic Hungarian history does not teach all Hungarians wanted independence. Deák, Rady, and other Hungarian historians of the period recognise that both sides were ethnically and linguistically diverse.

Of course Petőfi supports nationalist interpretations of 1848. He was a strident nationalist! 144.138.60.195 (talk) 03:38, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

That article is the "Hungarian independence war" and that is exactly the official Hungarian historiographical name: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/1848–49-es_forradalom_és_szabadságharc, according to IP "Hungarians did not want independence" and remove that info completely, instead he put "Hungarians supported the Habsburgs" against whom the war was fought. IP said that "1/3 Hungarians did not want independence" (I do not know what is the source, however that is well known that certain Hungarians supported the Habsburgs, mostly certain nobles who had good relationship or business with them), anyway it is a very big double standard that removing totally 2/3 people and emphasizing 1/3 people, morover the article itself about independence war, the IP edit is a 2x double standard that removing those groups totally about whom the article is about. It would be the same logical nonsense: "an article is about the Ukrainian war against the Russians, but Ukrainians supported Putin..."

What next, Petőfi will be a Nazi? OrionNimrod (talk) 11:55, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Magyar Nemzet.

The new version doesn't say „Hungarians did not want independence." Everyone can see that. It says some did, and some did not.

„is well known that certain Hungarians supported the Habsburgs, mostly certain nobles who had good relationship or business with them), anyway it is a very big double standard that removing totally 2/3 people and emphasizing 1/3 people”

Right, so the original entry was mistaken when it said "the Hungarian people, or Magyars, who wanted independence," Thanks for proving my point. 144.138.60.195 (talk) 04:13, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

If it were true that a 1/3 of Ukrainians supported Russia, then we would say a third of Ukrainians supported Russia. Not illogical, far from it. Try this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition 144.138.60.195 (talk) 04:15, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

A magyar oldalt elolvastam. Sajnos nem túl jó. Szerencsére sok magyar tanul magyar történet egyetemen. Az angol oldalt a jelentősebb! 144.138.60.195 (talk) 04:24, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I see you generated a Hungarian text by google translation, Hungarian is complicated language so easy recognize that machine translation :) OrionNimrod (talk) 08:06, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

lol Sem jól magyarul olvas. Magyar vagyok. 144.138.60.195 (talk) 06:27, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

That is an English wiki, please communicate in that way that every user would understand it. I really do not understand what is your purpose to put sentences with very broken Hungarian. OrionNimrod (talk) 08:44, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

If there's no horse...

Your argument depends on there being no difference between English determiners ("all," "some," and "most.") I don't understand your purpose in reiterating it in broken English, but here we are, 144.138.60.195 (talk) 10:47, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

== Notice of neutral point of view noticeboard discussion ==

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Hungarian Revolutuon of 1848. The discussion is about the topic revisions. Thank you. LotusEating (talk) 06:16, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Objectivity and nationalism

This page needs a lot of work. The latest edits go some way to improving it, citing contemporary scholarship from a varied range of sources, including world experts on the topic at hand. The original cites Friedrich Engels and Karl Marx, ideologues with clear biases against Romanians and Slavs. The contemporary sources are also much less bombastic and emotive. 144.138.60.195 (talk) 12:00, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia asks people to improve the article - let's do it in good faith. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.138.60.195 (talk) 12:02, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

The communist Marx and Engles are relatively calm towards the nationalties which helped the Habsburgs and Tzars, but the Western European and American liberals of the era had even a much more negative attitude towards the pro-Habsburg nationalities than Marx or Engels.. It is enough to read contemporary British American or French newspapers about the events in Hungary--Hefty-priced (talk) 11:15, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Many sources are biased. That's why historians use a range, including Slovak, Romanian, German, and Magyar sources. 144.138.60.195 (talk) 05:00, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

These ethnic groups had very backward social development, thus they did not even have well developed and specialized newspapers.--Hefty-priced (talk) 22:31, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

1. "Backward social development?" Come on, we are trying to write an objective encyclopedia entry here.

2. By any standard, Hungarian Germans were at least as "socially developed" as Magyars.

3. Widespread or not, Slovak- and Romanian-language newspapers existed, and expressed views on the events e.g. 'Gazeta de Transilvania' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazeta_de_Transilvania.)

2. German, Slovak, and Romanian writers left other records besides newspapers. Historians use them, along with Hungarian-language sources. It helps us build a more complete picture of events. LotusEating (talk) 01:42, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

My view: we use various primary and secondary sources, Hungarian and non-Hungarian.

Your view: we use political writings from Marx and Engels because some British, American, and French newspapers expressed more negative views about "pro-Habsburg" minorities, ignoring non-Hungarian language sources due to 'backward social development.' (FWIW, British, American, and French newspapers of course gave a range of views)

Which approach is more likely to be biased? LotusEating (talk) 01:47, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Dear IP & LotusEating!

"(FWIW, British, American, and French newspapers of course gave a range of views)" Wrong idea, of course there were so-called "range of views", like there are pro- Putin views in some negligible western newspapers nowadays, but the was majority of newspapers and news portals TV companies are against Putin. That was the case in the Habsburg - Hungarian conflict of 1848-49.

Romanians and Serbians were Orthodox countries, which had not better societal infrastructural and cultural development level than a typical Asian British or French colony. Learn about it, especially worth to memorize the 16 points: https://orthodox-eurasian-civiliazation.blogspot.com/2021/02/the-asianization-of-greco-roman.html

--Hefty-priced (talk) 16:15, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

"like there are pro- Putin views in some negligible western newspapers nowadays, but the was majority of newspapers and news portals TV companies are against Putin. That was the case in the Habsburg - Hungarian conflict of 1848-49."

The comparison is silly. For one thing, Western European public opinion and newspapers were much more evenly split than today. Please read some authoritative books on the topic. Good places to start: https://www.amazon.com/Lawful-Revolution-Kossuth-Hungarians-1848-1849/dp/1842121480; https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674986763 LotusEating (talk) 23:16, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

First, your source is a political blog. Let's use credible sources. Second, the level of societal or cultural development is beside the point. We have Romanian- and Serbian-language primary sources from 1848. Historians use them to develop better accounts of events. LotusEating (talk) 23:19, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

"Western European public opinion and newspapers were much more evenly split than today." It is just wishful thinking. The free and democratic world (US UK France) condemned the absolutist Habsburgs and their helper nationalities , as the enemies of the democratic ideas and freedom. With modern American slandg, they were the "bad guys". My sources are not a political blog, because it is written by academic historians, and not simple journalists. "Historians use them to develop better accounts of events." Unfortunatelly they do not represent the contemporary Western democratic public opinion. That1s why Lajos Kossuth was welcomed as a demigod, physical embodiment of freedom and democracy in Western countries during his American British etc. jouney.--Hefty-priced (talk) 21:06, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

'It is just wishful thinking. The free and democratic world (US UK France) condemned the absolutist Habsburgs and their helper nationalities'

1. The UK was not a democracy at that time. 2. Any review of the sources shows the picture is more nuanced than you say e.g. The London Times writes the Magyars treated Slovanians with 'contempt bordering on injustice' (18 Sep, 1848.) What are your sources?

'My sources are not a political blog, because it is written by academic historians'

Your link is to a blog that cites academic historians. The blogger is not an academic historian. Cite historians directly.

'That's why Lajos Kossuth was welcomed as a demigod, physical embodiment of freedom and democracy in Western countries during his American British'

1. This language is hyperbolic. 2. Kossuth was also criticised in the US, for failing to condemn slavery. LotusEating (talk) 23:03, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

This disagreement is anyway beside the point. We have Croatian-language, Romanian-language, and Serbian-language primary sources. We also have German-language and Hungarian-language ones. We should use a range of these sources to develop an objective account of events, like historians writing today. We shouldn't give undue weight to Marx and Engels and their strong biases. The result is an article that reads like nationalist panegyrics rather than an informative encyclopedia entry. LotusEating (talk) 23:11, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Lajos Kossuth, a Hungarian political leader and statesman, played a significant role in the Hungarian Revolution of 1848-1849. After the revolution was suppressed by the Austrian Empire, Kossuth sought refuge in the United States and later visited the United Kingdom. His visit to these countries garnered considerable attention and resulted in a range of reactions. While I don't have access to real-time information, I can provide you with an overview of the reception Kossuth received in the USA and the UK based on historical accounts up until September 2021.

Reception in the United States: 1. United States Congress: Kossuth's visit to the United States in 1851 was met with great enthusiasm. He was invited to address the United States Congress, becoming the first foreign leader to do so. His speech received a standing ovation, and he was widely praised for his commitment to liberty and democracy. 2. Public Support: Kossuth's visit sparked widespread public support, particularly among those sympathetic to the cause of Hungarian independence and democracy. His speeches drew large crowds, and he was hailed as a champion of freedom. 3. Media Coverage: Kossuth's visit received extensive media coverage. Newspapers published his speeches, and his activities were reported on a daily basis. The media generally portrayed him positively, emphasizing his fight against oppression and his eloquence as a speaker.

Reception in the United Kingdom:

Public and Intellectual Support: Despite the government's reservations, Kossuth received significant support from the British public and intellectual circles. Many British liberals and intellectuals admired his struggle for Hungarian independence and democratic ideals. Public meetings and rallies were organized in his honor, demonstrating the support he enjoyed among the British people. 3. Media Coverage: Kossuth's visit received substantial media coverage in the United Kingdom. Newspapers reported on his speeches and activities, and his message of liberty and national self-determination resonated with many readers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hefty-priced (talk • contribs) 21:21, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

1. I'm familiar with Kossuth Lajos, thanks.

2. 'becoming the first foreign leader to do so' Strictly, the first foreign leader to address the US Congress was David Kalakaua, King of the Hawaiian Islands.

3. I've not claimed Kossuth lacked support in other countries. I claimed the media and public opinion were more divided than you say. LotusEating (talk) 23:06, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it was only the southern elite (slave owners) who were against Kossuth. It tells a lot about the situation.--Hefty-priced (talk) 09:21, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Kossuth was invited in America too in 1851 (after in England, which is clearly indicate the western powers' sympathy for the Hungarian revolution and their anti-Habsburg stance). In USA, Kossuth talked about the situation in Hungary. Garrison was an American abolitionist, and he said "Kossuth talks only about the Hungarians, Kossuth do not mention the situation of the slaves in America, who lived more badly than the Hungarians". That is. Kossuth did not involve himself in the American politic, he arrived for political support and not to make new political issues. Today also we could blame every single politicians, that X politican why mentions only A and does not mention B thing. That USA slavery thing has really no business with the 1848 revolution article or what was the opinion from Kossuth by every single person years after the revolution war, which is POV (point of view) (of course IP does not mention the much more positive opinions), of course Habsburgs hated Kossuth because of the revolution war, which is also their view, that is why they executed the Hungarian generals. Kossuth was a Hungarian freedom fighter not an USA freedom fighter, that is. OrionNimrod (talk) 12:17, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

'That USA slavery thing has really no business with the 1848 revolution article or what was the opinion from Kossuth by every single person years after the revolution war, which is POV (point of view) (of course IP does not mention the much more positive opinions)'

I can't speak for IP, but I agree. All the irrelevant comments should go, whether negative or positive. LotusEating (talk) 05:16, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

'Yes, it was only the southern elite (slave owners) who were against Kossuth.'

1. If this were true, then it would be evidence of divisions in public opinion. That is, it would support my point. 2. It is not true. Some slave-owners were against him, yes. And some abolitionists were against him because he failed to condemn slavery while he was in the U.S., despite public pressure. Like everything else, the reality of Kossuth's reception in the US was complex e.g. some secessionists identified with the Hungarian revolution. You can read all this in various sources e.g. 'Louis Kossuth and the Campaign of 1852.' https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt6wrhkw LotusEating (talk) 05:13, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Orionimrod, you can't even understand the reason why was Americans and Brits mentioned. I just try to teach the very simple fact, that the public opinion of free and democratic world (the West) supported the Hungarian Revolution, and condemned the unconstitutional and unlawful deeds of the absolutist Habsburgs.--Hefty-priced (talk) 12:35, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes I know that, as I said that is why Kossuth was invited because the Western powers supported the Hungarian case. I just talked about the IP edit, who wants to push topic alien US slavery to the 1848 Hungarian article. OrionNimrod (talk) 12:51, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

To be fair to IP, the the American Civil War features in the original and current 1848 article LotusEating (talk) 05:19, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Notice of neutral point of view noticeboard discussion

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Hungarian Revolutuon of 1848. The discussion is about the topic topic. Thank you. LotusEating (talk) 06:12, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi, as I said many times, the issue is not MarxEngels but that you completely falsify the things to make it anti-Hungarian, it is an irony that you worry about the “neutrality”. Even you added “Hungarians restricted the language usage of ethnics” which is not true, even it was a law which supported them, but you at any cost wanted to remove or distort that law. That was a bonus bad faith revealing your real purpose when you tried to compare the Hungarians with the USA slave masters and the situation of minorities in Hungary with the not at all related USA slavery. OrionNimrod (talk) 09:29, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

1. There is nothing false in the edits. The sources are credible and the citations support the revisions.

2. "Anti-Hungarian" is not a legitimate objection to facts.

3. The current version contains false information e.g. 'in 1848 and 1849, the Hungarian people or Magyars, who wanted independence' False. Some Magyars wanted independence, and others did not.

4. The current version contains misleading information e.g. 'On 28 July 1849, the Hungarian Revolutionary Parliament proclaimed and enacted the first laws on ethnic and minority rights in Europe' This was the National Assembly, and these laws were not enacted e.g. 'Despite this effort from the Hungarians, the Romanians sought the fulfilment of their demands from the emperor, which led to a bloody civil war between them and the Hungarians.' It is not clear it was a civil war, and there is no clear causal relationship between Romanian natonionalists appealing to the emperor and the war.

5. The current article contains inappropriate language e.g. 'Austrian monarchy and those advising them manipulated the Croatians, Serbians and Romanians' 'The Slovak volunteers units were a reactionary'

6. The current article contains irrelevant, politicised information e.g.

As early as August to September 1848, the Hungarian Parliament's Nationality Committee drafted a nationality bill for the Romanians, promising them such wide rights that could meet even today's democratic standard.

7. None of my edits contain the sentence "Hungarians restricted the language usage of ethnics."

8. " faith revealing your real purpose when you tried to compare the Hungarians with the USA slave masters and the situation of minorities in Hungary with the not at all related USA slavery." No one drew this comparison. IP's earlier edit added information about Kossuth, citing credible sources. LotusEating (talk) 23:30, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

"you completely falsify the things"

Please give examples of false claims in my edits. LotusEating (talk) 23:32, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I think the brand new LotusEating is the same as the IP. It could be some things which could be extend, but the overall edit of the IP distorted everything as discusses here. It could be true that some Hungarian nobles (need check) was Habsburg supporter, (like a Habsburg was Hungarian supporter https://mandiner.hu/belfold/2019/03/istvan-nador-a-habsburg-aki-a-magyar-forradalom-oldalara-allt) but the majority of Hungarians and nobles were against them, that is why it was revolution war. It is clear a distortion that IP removes completely “Hungarians wanted independence” instead he put “Hungarians supported the Habsburg” which make a logical error in the article “I supported but I made war against him”… and other edits are the same distortion like removing important battle event, removing or distorting ethnic law, adding USA slavery…etc It would be good to see what the marked sources exactly say, page number. I think even the content in those provided sources are falsified as I checked some and I did not find the content. OrionNimrod (talk) 08:28, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

1. The edit says 2000/9000 Habsburg officers were Magyar, 68% of honvéd officers were Magyar, and 10% of all Habsburg officers sided with the honvéd. The citations support these claims. Do you have alternative sources?

2. The edit says both sides were ethnically and linguistically mixed, providing citations. Do you have alternative sources?

3. The original implies all Magyars supported the revolution. Do you have any sources to support this claim?

4. The edit does not say "Hungarians supported the Habsburgs." Why are you claiming it does?

5. 'It would be good to see what the marked sources exactly say, page number.' The citations include page numbers.

6. 'I think even the content in those provided sources are falsified as I checked some and I did not find the content.' With respect, you clearly have not checked them. They claim exactly what the edit says. The edit even includes a verbatim quote from the Rady book.

7. References to the US in the 1850s seem more relevant than references to modern politics, which the original contains.

Please try and engage in good faith. LotusEating (talk) 10:42, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

The original uses conservative blogs as sources. Why are these better sources than peer-reviewed journal articles and books from university presses? LotusEating (talk) 10:43, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

There were two phase of the events

Hungary did not want independence from Austrian Emppire, because simply Hungary was not really part of that Empire. You can read the details of legal history here: in the historical background section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Hungarian_Compromise_of_1867#Historical_background

The first phase was the Batthiány government, where the Hungarian government strugled for democracy and freedom, and which were bonded to the revolutionary ideas, but it was still loyal to the Habsburgs as Monarchs. (Hungary that time did not relate to the Austrian empire, it was just a mere personal union based on the person of the monarch. The strugle was related to the preservation of the April laws

Second phase was the Szemere Goverment, where Lajos Kossuth became head of state. It started as a reaction to the illegal/unlawful March Constitution (Austria). The independence war started with the Szemere government.--Hefty-priced (talk) 09:28, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

'Hungary did not want independence from Austrian Emppire, because simply Hungary was not really part of that Empire. You can read the details of legal history here: in the historical background section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Hungarian_Compromise_of_1867#Historical_background'

1. It is more complicated than that. Read the Deák book (https://www.amazon.com.au/Lawful-Revolution-Kossuth-Hungarians-1848-1849/dp/1842121480.)

'The first phase was the Batthiány government, where the Hungarian government strugled for democracy and freedom, and which were bonded to the revolutionary ideas, but it was still loyal to the Habsburgs as Monarchs. (Hungary that time did not relate to the Austrian empire, it was just a mere personal union based on the person of the monarch.'

1. It is misleading to say the Regnum Independens did not relate to the Austrian Empire. That Empire was defined by its realms, of which the Regnum Independens was one. 2. 'The strugle was related to the preservation of the April laws.' None of the edits are inconsistent with this claim.

'Second phase was the Szemere Goverment, where Lajos Kossuth became head of state. It started as a reaction to the illegal/unlawful March Constitution (Austria). The independence war started with the Szemere government.'

1. None of the edits are inconsistent with these claims. The edits correct false claims and inappropriate, non-NPOV language. LotusEating (talk) 05:28, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

The edits say X. Rather than saying not-X, you say Y. You should respond to the edits with not-X. LotusEating (talk) 05:30, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Footnote 9 and claim

The claim is controversial, and the source is the Hungarian Conservative, a political website. https://web.archive.org/web/20230730110111/https://www.hungarianconservative.com/articles/culture_society/hungary_europe_liberal_conservative_foreign_policy_reform_era/. I suggest removing the claim till we can find a source that does not violate NPOV. LotusEating (talk) 06:20, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Edits and discussion

Some time has passed since I suggested good faith edits and the page remains in a poor state. If there is no way to get nationalists to agree to substantive changes in line with contemporary scholarship, can we at least remove the political language? (e.g. "reactionary" Slovak forces)? LotusEating (talk) 05:08, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

You want to remove political language from an article about a political revolution? Be more specific. Remsense诉 05:43, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

"Royalist" or "Pro-Habsburg Royalist" are more netural and fitting than "reactionary". 2604:3D09:D07F:E580:0:0:0:A28A (talk) 02:31, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Reactionary means anti revolutionary and pro-Habsburg.

I suggest to read that Book. Hungary was not an Austrian province, it became Austrian province only after 1849.

https://www.google.hu/books/edition/Constitutional_Law_in_Hungary/R-CSEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=habsburgs+feudalism+1849&pg=PT22&printsec=frontcover

Photo of page 22: https://i.ibb.co/yY6P9w0/k-p.png

Constitutional Law in Hungary By Zoltán Szente · 2022

ISBN: 9789403544427, 9403544422 Page count: 360 Published: September 20, 2022 Format: ebook Publisher: Wolters Kluwer

--Mandliners (talk) 06:28, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

"Royalist" or "Pro-Habsburg Royalist" are more netural and fitting than "reactionary". 2604:3D09:D07F:E580:0:0:0:A28A (talk) 02:30, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Contribution

Glad to see someone stated with sources (Deak, Rady, Woloch etc) the linguistically and racially diverse nature of Imperial armed forces, with bulks of soldiers and officers came from all ethnic groups (including Italian - Michael Embree's book North Italian Campaign, Polish and even Hungarian). Such case was common with multinational nations. Of course the reasoning for joining army were various and complex (form of employment, better pay, voluntary or forced conscription etc). In addition, good to see a few Slovakian and Serbian source has been added, more sources from different ethnic groups such as Croatian, Romanian etc are needed as history is such a topic of complexity and being inclusive and objective is always welcome.

Also according to Laszlo Peter and Robert B. Pynsent in Intellectuals and the Future in the Habsburg Monarchy 1890-1914, and Raphael Patai's the Jews of Hungary, during Bach's period, the internal tariffs which had earlier separated the Crown Lands were removed, economical reforms foresaw rapid growth of towns and industrialization, emancipation of serfs, common currency, credit and transport system with changes in social institution, as Austrian Civil Code was introduced together with the judicial system. Also, educational life of Jews were changed greatly changed. A network of Jewish schools were established. Prior to 1848 only 20 to 30 Jewish elementary schools existed in Hungary, after 1848, 304 elementary schools were maintained by Jews. The same period also saw an increase in the number of Jewish student in high schools and higher education. By 1851, there were 584 Jewish students in academic high schools and in 1858, 128 Jewish students attended universities (they went to Austrian or aboard and their talents were proved after graduation). Also the economic condition of the Jews improved as customs duties between Hungary and other realms of Austria were abolished which benefitted Jewish commercial activity. in 1851, the imperial government decreed that nobody could be excluded from engaging in commerce and industry because of religion, nationality or birth. The Factory Act of 1859 removed all religious distinctions and the last surviving restrictions were obliterated a year latter, permitted the Jews to engage in dispensing pharmaceuticals, distilling spirits, milling flour and settling in mining towns. All distinctions between Jews and Christians were thus definitely eliminated until the introduction of anti-Jewish laws on the eve of World War II.

Jews began to establish large-scale industries in Hungary following these 1859-60 governmental measures (textile printing factory of Goldbergers in Obuda, Austrian National Bank opened branch in Pest by 1852 and establishment of warehouses that served growth of commercial traffic and export by the effort of Jacob Kern... During the decade of the 1850s many Hungarians Jews became intoxicated by the first whiffs of freedom, by signs of impending equality with their Christian compatriots, manifested in their success in medicine, education, literature and journalism and their elevation by imperial grace into the ranks of knights, nobles and court councilors 216.10.229.109 (talk) 08:45, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah it was not as simple or clear cut or vague as X supported Y. As stated by a student of Deak's Hungarian history class (later became a historian as well) said there were even officers who fought on hungarian side and their family members fought on imperial side (defied simple characterization). The problematic displaines of armies at that time (eurpean or american, regular or militia or armed citizens etc) posed major chanllegens (e.g. forced conscription, looting) as well as general disregard for civilian populations during wars and conflicts (white or non-white, especially non-Caucasian/non-white population at the hands of conquests and efforts of colonization by European or American. Of course this still exists in the present world). 199.189.26.196 (talk) 18:52, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. I remember someone provided "Slovakian Perspective" on the article, with responses of Slovakian villages to forced conscription, some villages revolted and some complied and some voluntarily joined. Unfortunately, that entry was gone. We definitely need specific Slovakian sources on this one instead of vague A supported B. 216.10.229.109 (talk) 06:50, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Article split proposal: Hungarian Revolution 1848 (March 1848) + Hungarian War of Indepence 18484-49 (June 1848 - October 1849)

Sylvain1975 already created many separate battle/siege articles regarding 1848-49 war: Template:Campaignbox Hungarian Revolution of 1848. He created a separate main war article: Draft:Hungarian War of Independence 1848-1849

Norden1990, Joy and myself are involved the planning.

The Hungarian Revolution 1848 (this event was the starting point for the later war) is different than the Hungarian War of Independence 1848-49 which was a long heavy war with many battles, sieges, involving Austrian, Croatian, Hungarian, Russian military forces. I think the Revolution article should focus on the political things and consequences, and some mention of the future war, and the War of Independence article should focus on the war (as you can it was many military events). As Sylvain1975 pointed out the situation is similar:

• French Revolution and French Revolutionary Wars
• American Revolution and American Revolutionary War

OrionNimrod (talk) 14:01, 23 July 2025 (UTC)