Talk:Glasgow Subway/Archive 3

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__ Oldest underground railway...

Romeksz has edited the page this morning and referenced an old SPT page which suggests that the GS is the 3rd oldest underground railway, after the London Underground and a line in Budapest. However, it makes no mention of the Mersey Railway, which opened 10 years before the Glasgow Subway. Is this likely to be an oversight? Comments welcome. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 06:46, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Looking back at this page's history, this seems to be a recurring and controversial topic! The page User:Romeksz added is, I think, no longer live - we should update the link to use that archive copy (if we keep the link) or a more current SPT page.

That said, wouldn't a reference from someone other than SPT be better?

I had a quick look at third-party refs including Wikipedia's list of subway systems and found Glasgow listed variously as 3rd and 4th. It seems to me that the real answer is "it depends" - on how underground railway is defined. My preference would be for this page to say something like The Glasgow Subway is described as being the 3rd or 4th oldest underground railway by sources using differing definitions of underground railway. Easy enough to back up with good quality references.

2.220.175.253 (talk) 10:57, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

1. 1863 - Metropolitan Railway (now a part of London Underground). Had stations underground and open to atmosphere.

2. 1886 - Mersey Railway (now a part of Merseyrail). Had stations underground and open to atmosphere. Incorporated the first deep level stations and an extensive under-river tunnel.

3. 1886 - Glasgow City and District Railway now part of the North Clyde and the Argyle. One underground station accessed by extensive tunnel under the city centre.

4. 1890 - City & South London Railway.

5. 1896 - Budapest Line 1 (now a part of Budapest Metro). Had stations and track underground and open to the atmosphere.

6. 1896 - Glasgow Subway - All stations underground.

7. 1896 - Liverpool Overhead Railway (Underground Dingle extension)

They are the first urban railways in the world using underground stations and tunnels.

152.37.85.43 (talk) 13:27, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I've been able to actually look at the article in more detail - the claim "third oldest" is sourced, unlike the claim of "fifth oldest". So a change would need a new source. Danners430 (talk) 13:55, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

@152.37.85.43 this is the most recent discussion on this topic. As it stands, the statement of "third oldest" is sourced in the lead, so my thought is it should stay unless a different source is found. Danners430 (talk) 13:54, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

The source is in the links to the particular metros. It clearly describes them, with some external sources and dates. Reading these comments on this Talk page it is clear common sense has gone out of the window being replaced by city partisanship. There is clearly a shameful anti Liverpool streak.

The idea to be factual. 152.37.85.43 (talk) 15:48, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

If there are sources in "links to particular metros", then bring them over and the matter would be resolved. It's not up to the reader to go hunting for references. Danners430 (talk) 16:11, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes a reference is not needed as it self evident. Going by your way we would have a reference after every sentence. Those who take your stance, not saying you are one, tend to have this give a reference when they have been proven wrong but do not like to admit it.

If an underground urban railway is having tunnels and an underground station, then you want links to articles pointing that out when hitting the wikipedia link gives the same info to the reader. 152.37.85.43 (talk) 16:27, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I'll make this quite crystal clear:

There is currently a referenced statement in the article. Changing this statement to contradict the reference goes directly against WP:VERIFIABILITY. Personally I have nothing against the information being changed - but because it's sourced in its current form, it should only be changed with an updated source. Danners430 (talk) 16:40, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

The reference is from a Gasgow transport authority. It should be dismissed out of hand as it is infactual. It states..

The Subway is generally recognised as the world’s third underground railway, after London and Budapest.

It does not say it is, it says "generally recognized" which is not enough. The list was given above:

1. 1863 - Metropolitan Railway

2. 1886 - Mersey Railway

3. 1886 - Glasgow City and District Railway

4. 1890 - City & Soth London Railway

5. 1896 - Budapest Line 1

6. 1896 - Glasgow Subway.

7. 1896 - Liverpool Overhead underground extension.

All have articles with links supporting the above list. It needs changing to make the article factual and stop this perennial talking of which was first, second, etc. The facts are firmly there. Wikipedia is based on fact, facts override something that is "generally recognized". 2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829 (talk) 11:11, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Mersey Railway is railway with tunnel or full underground subway? That's the question in my opinion. Metro (meaning as rapid transport) don't need to be a underground subway as London, Budapest and Glasgow subways. romeksz (talk) 13:08, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure that that should be the question, though - that seems to be moving into original research, and we should only be repeating verifiable claims. If a good quality article describes the Glasgow Subway as "3rd oldest underground railway" we can say "this article describes the Glasgow Subway as 3rd oldest underground railway". If different sources make opposing claims, we should report that too, link to the sources, and let readers draw their own conclusions. (Incidentally, none of the sources I checked mentioned Mersey Railway at all - a few placed Chicago "L" at 2nd place, opening in 1892, and others placed it at 4th, opening in 1897). 2.220.175.253 (talk) 13:33, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Mersey Railway is an underground railway with underground stations opened in 1886. All factual and verifiable. 2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829 (talk) 11:36, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Mersey Railway is a full underground railway with underground stations. 2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829 (talk) 11:39, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

"Third oldest underground railway"

The existing source [1] explicitly says "The Subway is generally recognised as the world’s third underground railway, after London and Budapest". Doing a quick Google Book search turns up a lot of published sources that agree, such as [2], [3], [4], [5]. I haven't yet found any that specifically say it is the fourth or fifth oldest. The suggested source for "fourth" or "fifth" is [6] and since that source says nothing about the Glasgow Subway, it is synthesis of published sources and therefore we can't use it in this article. Opolito (talk) 20:15, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

We'd need a superseding WP:RS that explicitly names the Glasgow Subway as the fourth (or fifth) underground system in the world to evaluate before changing this back in the article. Opolito (talk) 20:16, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

I agree. John (talk) 21:42, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

Liverpool

"It remains one of only two tube-type underground railways in the UK outside London, the other being the Tyne and Wear Metro."

What about Merseyrail? ProhibitOnions 16:06, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The phrase ‘tube-type underground railway’ may be confusing the issue, but isn’t Merseyrail considered a regular railway — despite its unusual franchising structure — rather than a metro like those of London, Glasgow, and Newcastle? David Arthur 22:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Merseyrail is an autonomous rapid transit urban metro system run by Serco/Nedrail. There are 4 metros in the UK: London, Glasgow, Liverpool & Newcastle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.58.123 (talk) 21:10, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

The Glasgow City and District Railway had an underground station served by underground tunnels - 1886. This is classed an an underground urban transit. Liverpool's Merseyrail is a similar but a smaller version to London Underground with underground and overground track. Its core is the original underground Mersey railway. 152.37.85.43 (talk) 13:06, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

"The Glasgow Subway is a metro system in Glasgow, Scotland; and one of the 3 largest underground (subway) systems in the United Kingdom."

The latter section of this sentence is redundant: there are only 2-3 underground systems in the UK. I've replaced it with 'one of only two underground (subway) systems in the United Kingdom. If anyone wants this changed in light of Newcastle, I won't object, but bear in mind that only around 20% of the Newcastle system is underground, and would be more properly described as a light rail system. FrFintonStack 01:16, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

It is arguable that the Merseyrail system is a metro, it is probably more properly described as a suburban rail system. However, the system has marginally more underground mileage than the Glasgow Subway and five underground stations and is very similar to the London tube in many respects, so to ignore it completely in this article is, I believe, misleading. I'm not going to make any edits though.

The addition of the Mersey Railway is confusing. The earliest underground services in Glasgow were between High Street and Stobcross on what is now the North Clyde line, but we don't consider those to be metro services. The modern Merseyrail page compares the current Merseyrail system to other S-Bahn systems, which is totally what the North Clyde and the Argyle lines also are: urban lines with heavy suburban reach.

Merseyrail is labelled a metro. The metro-mayor constantly used the word. It is the first metro to use hybrid battery trains. 152.37.85.43 (talk) 13:31, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

The Mersey Railway clearly was an underground urban railway dating from 1886. That is 100% factually correct. Similar to the Metropolitan Railway in London from 1863, which is now a part of London Underground. The Mersey Railway is now a part of Merseyrail, which has overground sections amongst the oldest of any urban railway in the world. Why do people find this fact unpalatable? It looks like prejudice against the city of Liverpool. Progress and on (talk) 20:53, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

@Progress and on: Perhaps ease up on the personal attacks? On the substance of what you say, it certainly is your opinion that the "Mersey Railway clearly was an underground urban railway" but your claim it is irrefutable fact is incorrect, as the extensive discussions on this page show. More to the point, it does not matter what any individual editor (including you, including me) thinks. What matters is what the independent, published sources say. As I noted below, the preponderance of sources describe the Glasgow Subway as the third oldest underground railway. You cannot use synthesis of other sources to justify the change you want to make. You need to supply reliable sources that directly say the Glasgow Subway is the fourth (or fifth) oldest underground railway in the world. Opolito (talk) 21:01, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

What personal attacks are you referring to? I do not know of any.

To the point. Is the Mersey Railway the 2nd oldest urban underground railway in the world dating from 1886? Yes it factually is. Not an opinion, factually it is. All literature says so.

The preponderance of sources describe the Glasgow Subway as the third oldest underground railway are clearly wrong. More additional proof for you, https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Mersey_Railway. You can also use Wikipedia as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersey_Railway

There are even refs there as well stating 1886. Electric Railway Society (2003). Electric Railway. Doppler Press. p. 61.

I see the Metropolitan Railway does not need to go through this to prove its opening date, so why does the Mersey Railway have to? The Mersey Railway, with the first deep level underground stations, not cut & cover, opened in 1886 FACT. All the refs say that. Progress and on (talk) 21:41, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

You reverted solid references saying it was original research. Will you please leave the article. It seems you have some sort of agenda to act the way you do. Progress and on (talk) 21:45, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

I just looked. This talk page is full of people saying that the Mersey Railway was the 2nd oldest. Yet even when refs are given people keep deleting it. Amazing. this is not what wikipedia is about. It is about facts. Progress and on (talk) 21:53, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

As I already said to you, the Graces Guide article doesn't call the Mersey Railway an underground railway, so it is not a source for your claim. I have never disputed that the Mersey Railway opened in 1886 (The Metropolitan Railway article does in fact source its opening date). The issue is you have yet to provide a single reliable source that says that the Glasgow Subway is the fourth oldest underground railway. What you are doing is clearly original research which you would understand if you had bothered to read this link to that policy, which I have provided to you multiple times. Opolito (talk) 21:56, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

A book reference and page was given. Progress and on (talk) 22:14, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

Although Liverpool already had an underground railway – opened in 1886 and the oldest in the world after London – Liverpool Central was not connected to the subway system until 1892, when Mersey Railways extended their route from James Street into the heart of the city centre.

- Merseyrail

https://www.merseyrail.org/news/station-and-service-updates/liverpool-central-station-celebrates-150-years-of-public-transport-service/

The Mersey Railway was even being extended before Budapest and the Glasgow subway were opened. Progress and on (talk) 22:27, 24 February 2025 (UTC)