Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/HNLMS Kortenaer (1927)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Matarisvan (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 07:20, 7 July 2025 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

HNLMS Kortenaer (1927)

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): GGOTCC (talk)

Two months ago, the Dutch Navy was notably absent from WikiProject Ships’ Good Article list, which left a significant gap in the Netherlands’ role in the early Pacific War on this site. In the past two months, I have tried to change that. Recently promoted as a GA, Kortenaer is my best article yet and reflects the Dutch experience in the region due to a series of colonial tribulations, unfortunate events, and destruction (twice!) I hope to improve the article even more with more people looking it over! GGOTCC 01:57, 29 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@GGOTCC, I checked the license of both images and found them satisfactory. I hope the edits I made are alright with you. I am curious if there are any images of the wreck, and if they can be added. If not, the image review passes. I must say the alt texts are amazing, I try to write detailed alt texts but now find yours much better than mine. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 18:43, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Matarisvan Thank you very much, your praise is gold! I had no experience with alt texts before this, so I had no idea what my goal was. I'll keep my eye out for any good photos, but these two are the best imo due to image quality/reliable licences. Your edits are also very welcome! GGOTCC 22:55, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@GGOTCC, the image review is a pass. The article now has three supports and has passed both image and source reviews. It has therefore been promoted to A class. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 06:26, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Hawkeye7

"While she was intended to participate in the Battle of Badung Strait, she ran aground while leaving port." The second "while" is jarring here. Consider re-wording.
"postwar period" doesn't point to the correct period. Switch the link to "interwar period".
"Simultaneously" is too exact here; suggest something like "Around this time"
Link "destroyer"
"The Netherlands subsequently adopted a modified version of this design" "subsequently" doesn't do much here; suggest deleting.
"the latter four displaced slightly more and furnished with minesweeping equipment" "were furnished"
"Delayed by a trans-Atlantic crossing, the two ships arrived to late: the rebels had left Curaçao, landed in Venezuela, and were promptly defeated as many of the stollen rounds were blanks." How does a trans-Atlantic crossing delay them? Didn't they have to cross the Atlantic?
"to late" should be "too late"

semi-colin instead of colon

Unlink Venezuala

"stollen" should be "stolen"
"several illegal Japanese-operated fishing vessels and arrested the crew." "crews"
"Following the German invasion of the Netherlands, war-time measures" Add a date, and shift this sentence into the next paragraph

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:51, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

All done, thank you very much! GGOTCC 23:42, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

fn 2 requires the date
fn 26 requires access date
Sources are not in alphabetic order
Chesneau & Gardiner (1980), Kehn (2017), Stille (2019) location?
"Annapolis, Md" Don't abbreviate the American states
"Verification of the Location and Condition of the Dutch Shipwrecks in the Java Sea" uses a different date format (although I prefer this one myself)
Is Cox 2014 or 2015?

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:51, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! I added most of the feedback. A few of the last issues were introduced by a user after my nomination as part of a multi-page dispute. If they don't fix the issues that I laid out on the talk page, I will do it myself. GGOTCC 23:43, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

~Support Nick-D

Great work with this article. I'd like to offer the following comments:

The lead is a bit short - 2 paras would be better
The lead is also a bit repetitive, as the name of the ship is only used in the first sentence, and she/her is used thereafter
Can anything be said about habituality of the ships in the 'Characteristics' section? UK designs in British service were generally poorly suited for service in the tropics as they lacked ventilation.
"the largely-Indonesian seamen" - this is the first time that the manning of the ship has been discussed. Can more be said here? (for instance, did Indonesians serve on board the ship when it was deployed outside the region?) Nick-D (talk) 00:16, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! I've incorporated your feedback, especially about the Indonesian sailors. To reduce the repetion in the lead, do you want more use of feminine pronouns or other terms, such as 'the destroyer' instead? I was unable to find much about habituality regarding her class, although I am still looking. It seems that this was not much of an issue and no one bothered to write about something minor that worked. GGOTCC 02:04, 30 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Nick-D, any further comments? This review is almost ready to be closed. Matarisvan (talk) 08:36, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I missed the response above, including when I checked earlier today! My comments are addressed and I'm very happy to support the nomination. Nick-D (talk) 11:15, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Pendright

Lead

Equipped to also operate as a minelayer, she was built to defend the Dutch East Indies and safeguarded Dutch colonial possessions throughout the world.

Suggest: Equipped to also operate as a minelayer, she was built to defend the Dutch East Indies and to safeguard Dutch colonial possessions throughout the world. This phrasing clearly states what the ship was designed to do.

After suffering damage to her boilers and having her maximum speed reduced, she re-joined the fleet for the Battle of the Java sea.

rejoined is not hyphenated

Her wreck was later illegally salvaged for metal in the 2010s, which destroyed parts of the ship.

Change wreck to wreckage:

Wreck can be both the event of destruction and the object that is destroyed.
Wreckage, on the other hand, specifically refers to the scattered pieces and remains after something has been wrecked.

Development and design

During the interwar period, the Navy [pursed] ~~planned for a~~ rapid modernization[, studying] ~~and studied~~ the equipment of other nations while designing a new class of destroyers

Suggest the above changes

Characteristics

They were propelled by three Yarrow boilers that produced 31,000 shaft horsepower (23,000 kilowatts) and a top speed of 36 knots (67 km/h; 41 mph) through two propellers.

The first sentence shows how the propulsion system actually worked and suggest it:

Three Yarrow boilers powered two steam turbines, driving or propelling the ship's two shafts (propellers or screws are attached to the shafts). In addition to what is stated, include if the boilers were water tube and the type of steam turbines, the type of fuel and the amount she carried.

Peacetime

The boats likely operated as part of a discreet Japanese effort to scout the region for invasion.[13]

discrete means careful and circumspect - how about disguised?

Dutch East Indies'

After the German invasion of the Netherlands in May 1940, war-time measures were introduced and she was tasked with escorting various civilian vessels throughout the region.[14]

wartime is one word
wartime measures seem nebulous

Over the next two months, Japan's rapid advances across Southeast Asia overwhelmed the region's Allied naval forces.

Change advances to advancement

Unlink Allied - The Soviet Union did not officially declare war on Japan until August 8, 1945.

After initial delay, Kortenaer was reassigned to the Striking Force that was in desperate need of ships.

After an initial delay

Battle of Badung Strait

Ainterval could encompass the time the torpedoes were launched, the ships manes Kortenaer pulled out from Soerabaja alongside other ships intended to intercept the Japanese, she lost control of her rudder and ran aground at 10 PM.

~~::she lost control of her rudder and ran aground at 10 PM -> To be more concise, change she to the helmsmen~~ Pendright (talk) 02:19, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

While the morning's tide would have freed the ship, Doorman believed he did not have time to wait and left her behind.[19]

could have

After getting underway without the fleet sometime later, the destroyer was largely repaired, although a leaking boiler reduced her speed to 26 knots (48 km/h; 30 mph).

A previous sentence has already establish the fleet let her
The repairs were made so she could get underway

Battle of the Java Sea

The Allied formation quickly fell apart as Doorman attempted to reform his battleline as the turn presented a large profile for the Japanese to target.

battle line

Sinking

At around the same time she hit Exeter, Haguro also fired a spread of 8 torpedoes. Some 15 minutes later, one of these torpedoes hit Kortenaer amidships.[28]

Do you mean that the actual travel time of the torpedo from launch to hit was 15 minutes?

<>It's a yes or no question. Restated: 15 minutes from launch to target seems questionable - but if the source confirms this, case closed. Pendright (talk) 02:19, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Pendright I rewrote the sentence in question, as it was added by a different user and the source was more exact. The torpedo spread began at 4:53 pm and hit at 5:13, so 20 minutes is accurate. Does this read better to you? Thanks for the feedback! GGOTCC 04:58, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@GGOTCC: Thanks. Do you plan adding anything more to the article? Pendright (talk) 05:52, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Pendright I don't think so...? Should I? GGOTCC 06:01, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Crewmembers were blown off by the explosion, with several clinging to either the still-rotating propellers or to the ship's mast as others either jumped ship or pushed scared crewmembers overboard.

Suggest: The explosion blew crew members overboard, with some desperately clinging to the still-rotating shafts or the ship's mast, while others either jumped or were pushed into the water.

crew members is two words
jumped ship has its own special meaning
shafts rotate and propellers or screws are attached to the shafts

Her life rafts floated to her surface, which allowed survivors to cling on and group together.

Her life rafts floated to the surface,

Hours later, the remaining 115 of 153 crewmembers were picked up by HMS

crew members

Tensions on the rafts deteriorated along ethnic lines as the largely-Indonesian seamen blamed the ethnically Dutch officers, which was only resolved when an officer beat the crewmembers with a paddle to restore order

crew members

Wreck

The destroyer's capsized wreck broke apart in 52 m (171 ft) deep water.

capsized.

Change wreck to wreckage - was this not established under sinking?

In 2016, an expedition reported several new tears made into her hull, various parts missing, and her machinery spaces ruptured,[31] which lead

officials to believe the wreck had been intentionally dismantled.

Change wreck to wreckage

The vessel believed to be responsible, the Chinese dredger Chuan Hong 68, was detained by Malaysian authorities in 2024 and accused of dismantling the wrecks for either low-background steel or scrap metal.

Suggest:The Chinese dredger Chuan Hong 68, believed to be responsible, was detained by Malaysian authorities in 2024 and accused of having dismantled the wreckages for either low-background steel or scrap metal.

It was alleged that the scrapping was done regardless of the wrecks' nationality, with American, Dutch, Japanese, British, and Australian ships affected.

wreckages

In 2018, The Guardian reported the bones from Kortenaer and other warships were removed from their respective wrecks during scrapping in Indonesia and were dumped in several mass graves nearby.

wreckages
nearby -> As an adjective it means, close at hand; not far away -> as an adverb it means, close by; very near. suggest a substitution

The Dutch and Indonesian governments collaborated in the investigation, exhumed suspected graves, and laid out plans to prevent further damage to the shipwrecks.

ship wreckages

This it for now - Pendright (talk) 05:09, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@GGOTCC, could you respond to the comments by Nick-D and Pendright? I can then do the image review once you are done. Matarisvan (talk) 07:37, 28 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Matarisvan Apologies for the delay. Ive been rechecking sources to see what could help answer Nick-D's comments, which takes a bit as some of the information is in academic papers. My college account should get me access to these sources, but it's not fully set up. I would be finished by the end of the weekend. GGOTCC 14:46, 28 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for waiting! I have added all of the feedback I can do currently. I just removed an image that was improperly licensed, but the other two should be good to go. Do you think two images cut it, or should another be added? GGOTCC 02:20, 30 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! I've incorperated most of your feedback. However, could you clerify what you meant by Ainterval could encompass the time the torpedoes were launched, the ships manes Kortenaer pulled out from Soerabaja alongside other ships intended to intercept the Japanese, she lost control of her rudder and ran aground at 10 PM.? I am still working to find info on her machinery, especially about what type of fuel and boilers she had. GGOTCC 02:19, 30 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@GGOTCC: Take your time. I'll be back with responses to yours shortly. Pendright (talk) 18:39, 30 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@GGOTCC: I've answered both of your questions under the above related comments. Only one requires a reply. Please ping me when you are finished with your responses. Thank you. Pendright (talk) 02:19, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Supporting - Pendright (talk) 05:26, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.