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First Jewish–Roman War

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Nominator(s): Mariamnei (talk)

First Jewish–Roman War (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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I'm nominating this article for A-Class review following its recent promotion to GA, with the intention of eventually submitting it for Featured Article status. The topic is of considerable historical importance: it covers a major conflict that shaped both Jewish and Roman history (the first among the three major Jewish–Roman wars), and includes some of the most well-documented and thoroughly researched episodes in ancient military history. Given its significance and clear military focus, I believe it's highly relevant to the scope of this project, and I'd greatly appreciate any detailed feedback to help strengthen it further. Mariamnei (talk) 10:12, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Hawkeye7

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Great work! Some comments:

  • Not entirely sure about referring to Vespasian as "General"
  • Nero is linked twice in the Lead
  • Suggest adding the date of the Bar Kochba Revolt
  • "as the province of Judaea." Why is Judea italicized here?
  • Judaea under the Romans: "High Priest" and "Roman Syria" are doubly linked
  • Why is Claudius "Emperor Claudius" but Nero and Caligula just "Nero" and "Caligula"?
  • Josephus is mentioned, but not introduced or linked.
  • " modern national liberation movements, citing their struggle to free Judaea, the minting of coins inscribed with "Israel," and the adoption of the "freedom of Israel" era as examples." It is not clear here whether the coins were minted by the Ancient Judeans or the modern national liberation movements
  • now reads modern national liberation movements, citing the rebels' struggle to free Judaea, their minting of coins inscribed with "Israel," and their adoption of the "freedom of Israel" era as examples, Hope that resolves the ambiguity! Mariamnei (talk) 09:43, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Outbreak of the rebellion: Agrippa II, Berenice, Perea are dups
  • Unlink "Bethoron Pass"
  • Do we have an article on what a talent was?
  • What is a "decisive ambush"?
  • "Scholars compare this defeat to the Roman defeat against the Germans in the Teutoburg Forest" That sounds like a stretch - part of one legion vs three complete, and the Romans retained control over most of the province.
  • Regarding the comparison to Teutoburg Forest: good point. The original version noted the difference in scale: Scholars have compared this Roman failure to the disastrous Battle of the Teutoburg Forest in 9 CE,[75][79] though the latter was much larger in scale, resulting in three times the losses.[83], but that was trimmed for brevity. Since much of this is already covered in the battle's own article, I've removed the sentence from here. Mariamnei (talk) 15:29, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Judean provisional government: High Priest, Jericho, Perea, Herod Antipas, Parthian Empire, Tyre, Acrabetene are dups
  • Vespasian's Galilee campaign: Now he his Emperor Nero
  • Alexandria and Akko-Ptolemais are dups
  • Civil war and coup in Jerusalem: Zealots, Joseph ben Gurion are dups
  • "the leaders of Gadara, in Perea, sent a delegation to Vespasian to surrender: Suggest "offering to surrender"
  • Vespasian's campaign in Judea: Jericho, Thamna, Yavneh, Samaria, Dead Sea
  • "Vespasian visited the Dead Sea and tested its buoyancy by throwing bound non-swimmers into the water". He had a sense of humour.
I've done this myself. They were in no danger, because on the Dead Sea you'll bob like a cork. You can't swim in it really, because you float on top of the water, so usual swimming strokes don't work. You can stand up in the water too. They might have panicked before they realised what was going on. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:55, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

more to come... Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:03, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Vespasian was officially recognized as emperor in the winter of 69/70" By whom? And do we have a more specific date than "winter"? (MOS:SEASON)
  • Changing to With Vitellius, the reigning emperor, dead on 20 December 69, the Senate conferred imperial authority on Vespasian the next day. That should clear up both points! Mariamnei (talk) 15:38, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Siege of Jerusalem: suggest splitting the first paragraph after "John's faction infiltrated the Temple's inner courtyards and subdued the Zealots"
  • Dup links: Antonia Fortress, Caesarea Philippi, Berytus, Herodium, Lod, Yavneh, Tarichaea, Gabara, Sepphoris, Tiberias, Transjordan, High Priesthood, Sanhedrin, Ein Gedi, Pliny the Elder, Domitian, Suetonius, Samaritis. Egypt, Antioch, Cyrenaica, Qumran, Philip S. Alexander, Roman Colony, Roman citizenship, Tacitus, Suetonius, Rabbinic literature
  • What is a "relative majority"?
  • "Jews ceased to be a political entity, resembling a nation-state for almost two millennia" I think the placement of the comma here makes this read the opposite of what was intended.
  • "This idea appears in New Testament texts, and is echoed in the Gospels" Aren't the Gospels part of the New Testament?

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:26, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Move to support Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:59, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

HF

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I read Josephus's Antiqiuties several years ago, but never got around to The Jewish War. I'll probably review this in increments as I have time. Hog Farm Talk 20:47, 30 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Religious fanaticism grew, inspiring figures like Theudas, who tried to part the Jordan but was executed by procurator Fadus," - did Theudas actually make an attempt to part the Jordan, or just claim that he was going to do it using miraculous powers? I thought it was the latter - Theudas was suppressed before he had a chance to attempt that and presumably fail
  • Smallwood writes: "A certain Theudas collected a following in the Jordan valley by promising to stage a pale imitation of Moses' crossing of the Red Sea: he would cause the waters of the river to divide and lead his disciples across dryshod." (The Jews under Roman rule, p. 260), and according to Price (Jerusalem Under Siege, p. 12), Theudas "was preparing miraculously to part the Jordan River when he was captured and killed by the procurator Fadus." I've tweaked the text to read: Religious fanaticism grew, inspiring figures like Theudas, who claimed he would miraculously part the Jordan River but was executed by procurator Fadus,.... Mariamnei (talk) 19:00, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it worth briefly defining what the Upper Agora was?
  • "Prominent Jews paid Florus eight talents to stop the construction, " - is it known that this was eight talents of? Silver, gold, etc.?
  • In Josephus's account, both here and later when Florus takes 17 talents from the Temple, he doesn't specify the metal. I haven't found anything on it in Smallwood or Price, but Rogers refers to the 17 talents as silver (p. 128), so we could maybe assume the same here. Do you think it makes sense to specify silver in both instances, or would it be better to leave them ambiguous, or alternatively, only specify it for the Temple treasury? Another option: add an efn to the treasury mention, something like "Rogers identifies the 17 talents taken from the Temple as silver." Mariamnei (talk) 19:00, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Jerusalem, then swelled by Passover pilgrims and refugees[295]—faced mounting pressure as Roman forces approached." - I think you need either two commas or two endashes, not one of each in order for this to really work structurally
  • Do the modern historians weigh in on either side of the Josephus/Sulpicius disagreement regarding Titus's intentionality for destruction of the Temple?
  • The view that the destruction was ordered by Titus tends to be more widely accepted today, though some support Josephus's account. Adding the following sentence after the mention of the two views: Modern scholarship often favors the view that Titus authorized the destruction, though the matter remains subject to debate. (based on Goldenberg, 2006, pp. 194–195). Mariamnei (talk) 19:25, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and adopted an increasingly elevated view of Jesus" - I don't think this is a good representation/phrasing of this - the distinction between the Jews and the Christians was the elevated Christian view of Jesus. It's not like Paul (who predated the Jewish War) didn't view Jesus as God/the Christ. I'm also not seeing where the cited pages of the cited source relate the growing split between Christianity and Judaism to the Jewish War
  • I included this point because I felt it would be a bit abrupt to end the discussion of the Temple's destruction impact on the development of Christianity with Theologian Jörg Frey contends that the Temple's destruction had only a limited impact on Christian identity, which was shaped more significantly by the development of Christology. I thought Cohen’s point could help shed light on the broader separation process by bringing in what's more commonly seen as contributing to the growing distinction between Judaism and Christianity (by the way the original quote by Cohen reads: Early Christianity ceased to be a Jewish sect when it ceased to observe Jewish practices. It abolished circumcision and became a religious movement overwhelmingly gentile in composition and character. This process was accompanied by the elevation of Jesus to a position far higher and more significant than that occupied by any intermediary figure in Judaism.). That said, Cohen really does not connect this to the Jewish War, so I'm gonna remove this sentence for now, let me know if you have different thoughts. Mariamnei (talk) 21:07, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, with Cohen it's best to omit that since the source doesn't attribute those changes to the Jewish War. The growing split between the two was strengthened by the Jewish War, but the processes had begun some time before this. Hog Farm Talk 21:46, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure how much weighting this gets in the sources, but is it worth a mention that the Jewish War and the 70 AD destruction of the temple are a major part of the still-important Christian thought of preterism, which is one of the main interpretational grouping of Christian eschatology?
  • Not something that shows up too often in sources specifically covering this topic, at least from what I’ve seen, but definitely a relevant angle to include! I added a mention under First Jewish–Roman War#Impact on Christianity: The eschatological view of preterism, which holds that many or all New Testament prophecies were fulfilled in the first century, interprets Jerusalem's destruction as the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecies. Partial preterists see the event as marking the end of the Old Covenant and God's judgment on Israel, while maintaining belief in a future return of Christ and final judgment. In contrast, full preterists see it as the fulfillment of all New Testament eschatology, including resurrection (understood as deliverance of believers from the condemnation of death imposed by Jewish authorities) and judgment, enacted through Christ's use of Rome's armies to destroy the Temple and inaugurate the New Covenant. Mariamnei (talk) 20:37, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Broshi 1999 is listed as a source but does not seem to be used - should this be cited, removed, or moved to a further reading section?
  • Same with Isaac 2024
  • No ISBN for Schiffman 1991?
  • The infobox states that Agrippa II was WIA, but I'm not seeing where that's mentioned in the article text
  • Agrippa was wounded by a stone thrown by a slinger from Gamla, which struck his right elbow while he was attempting to negotiate during the siege (Jewish War 4.14; Rogers 2022, p. 253). Personally, I think it's a pretty minor episode and probably doesn't meet the threshold for inclusion in the main text here. I'd be fine with just removing the WIA note from the infobox. Mariamnei (talk) 15:44, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is John of Gischala referred to be an alternate name in the infobox, but never that way in the article?
  • Oh that's a relic from an older version of the article (Yohanan and John are the same name, and Gischala is the Greek rendering of Gush Halav). Changing to John of Gischala for consistency. Mariamnei (talk) 15:44, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • The infobox as a whole needs a lot of cleanup - several of the leaders are referred to be different names or don't appear to be mentioned in the article body at all (Jacob ben Sosa?)
  • I updated the leader names in the infobox to match those used in the article. Regarding Jacob ben Sosa (also known as James, son of Sosas), you're right, he isn't mentioned by name in the current body, but the article does cover his actions. He was one of the Idumaean leaders who entered Jerusalem at the Zealots’ request and was later imprisoned by Bar Giora when the Idumaeans were preparing to withdraw (Rogers, p. 366). It might be worth naming at least one Idumean commander in the article for clarity? In his comprehensive work on the revolt, Rogers mentions the others only once, but ben Sosas appears six times. I'm also doing some structural cleanup and fixing labels and other small details. Mariamnei (talk) 15:44, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • The idea behind the infobox is that it's hitting the highlights of the conflict. So the guide should be that if something is important enough to make the infobox, it's also important enough to made the article body. Edge cases like Agrippa's wounding can be handled by efn if necessary. Hog Farm Talk 21:46, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Got it. Removed WIA for Vespasian and Agrippa, doesn't affect the main narrative and probably fits much better in battle articles. Mariamnei (talk) 22:21, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for the first round of comments. Hog Farm Talk 03:52, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support Hog Farm Talk 01:53, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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