Wikipedia:Peer review/Johann Sebastian Bach/archive3

Johann Sebastian Bach

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I've listed this article for peer review because it has recently completed GAN successfully. The reviewer of the article and other editors have indicated that it may be worth improving the article further to move the article forward. ("It seems to me to have the potential for Featured Article Candidate (perhaps after a Peer Review)," TR).

Thanks, ErnestKrause (talk) 23:38, 29 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Gerda Arendt you may be interested in this. RoySmith (talk) 13:16, 30 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Octave

I should be able to provide some notes on this soon, maybe by the weekend? Couldn't resist such an important article :) UpTheOctave! • 8^va? 16:14, 30 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi UpTheOctave!; It would be useful to see your version of a peer review when you have time for it. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:32, 1 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

MOS:CAPSUCCINCT: suggest shortening caption, perhaps to "1748 portrait of Bach holding a copy of the canon BWV 1076"? I don't see how the specifics of the canon are important.
- MOS:SEAOFBLUE: should be fixed here regardless (canon BWV 1076)
Not sure the brackets around (O.S.) and (N.S.) should be linked
I would generally expect a country as part of the places of birth and death for precision

Lead

MOS:FORCELINK: I agree with the points made below about a footnote for O.S. vs. N.S.
Calling the cello suites and sonatas and partitas "solo instrumental works" implies that the keyboard or organ works are not for a solo instrumental
- Similarly, distinguishing between keyboard and organ works implies that the organ is not a keyboard instrument
How should "Bach Revival" be capitalised? From a quick glance at Scholar, I see a split between lowercase and uppercase for revival
At a glance, the second paragraph seems to rest too heavily on "In [year]... In [year]" constructions
"In 1703 he returned to Thuringia ... where he was mostly engaged with chamber music": this is very long for a single sentence, I suggest splitting
"its university's student ensemble Collegium Musicum" -> "Leipzig University's student ensemble, Collegium Musicum" for clarity
"not only in his larger vocal works but, for instance": not seeing the need for "for instance"
"Many of his works use": suggest expanding pipe to "Many of his works use contrapuntal techniques", this makes it sound like we're linking to a full work list
The start of the last lead paragraph reads disjointed, could these sentences flow better?
Expand pipe to multitude of arrangements

Early life, marriages and education

"scores were so valuable and private and blank ledger paper was costly": suggest comma for clarity after private

Add comma. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:17, 9 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"From his brother": specify which

It was Johann Christoph; mentioned in the sentence before that one, and the sentence after it. It could be added again. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:17, 9 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have no examples of North German composers Bach was exposed to?

Current version presents South Germans such as Johann Caspar Kerll, Johann Jakob Froberger, and Johann Pachelbel. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:17, 9 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The North German list looks something like: Georg Böhm, Reincken and Friedrich Nicolaus Bruhns from Hamburg, and the work of Dieterich Buxtehude. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:24, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"By 3 April 1700, Bach and his school friend Georg Erdmann—who was two years older—studied at St Michael's School in Lüneburg": suggest "began studies" instead?
- "who was two years older": is this relevant?

Could be abridged; they were near contemporaries. 'Began studies' added. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:17, 9 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Anna Magdalena Wilcke": why italics?

Currently regular font. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:17, 9 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Career

Why is Bach Church is quotes in the caption, but not in prose?
"The position was offered to Bach only after it had been offered to Georg Philipp Telemann and then Christoph Graupner, both of whom chose to stay where they were—Telemann in Hamburg and Graupner in Darmstadt—after using the Leipzig offer to negotiate better terms of employment.": I think the dash ought to be moved to before "both"
"went all the way to the Elector but was denied": do we know who was Elector at this time?
Link Gottfried Zimmermann more explicitly to the cafe so the reader doesn't have to make the connection themselves
Shouldn't "Court Composer" be lowercase?
"In 1733 Bach composed a Kyrie–Gloria Mass in B minor that he later incorporated into his Mass in B minor...He later extended this work into a full mass by adding a Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei": do we need to talk about this twice? At least, these should be joined.
"polyphonic structures and canons and other elements of the stile antico": convert to list
"In January 1749 Bach's daughter Elisabeth Juliane Friederica married his pupil Johann Christoph Altnickol. Bach's health was declining.": needs better flow here

Music

"he often returned to the then-antiquated modes and genres...I have expended much effort to find another piece of this type by Bach. But it was in vain.": these sentiments seem to disagree?
"about a century before they were fitted with valves, were tied to the key of their tuning": not entirely true, perhaps mention the use of crooks?
"5th Brandenburg Concerto" -> "fifth Brandenburg Concerto"
"For instance, the sonatas and partitas for solo violin are considered the pinnacle of what has been written for violin, within reach of only accomplished players.": The pinnacle? I doubt there is a complete consensus on that.
Is a 200-word block quote warranted?
"In his last years, Bach revised several of his compositions. Often, recasting such previously composed music in an enhanced structure was the most salient change, as in the Mass in B minor.": to me, these read better joined
Link hermeneutics
Why is "who copied whom" in quotes?

Reception and legacy

"old master": just say Bach
Why the quotes around "patron"?
MOS:SEAOFBLUE: cantor Doles
Her name is Sara Levy, link to Sara Levy (née Itzig)
Link Breitkopf & Härtel, N. Simrock, Hans Georg Nägeli and Franz Anton Hoffmeister
"Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott (BWV 80)" don't put BWV no. in italics, it's not part of the title
Link for Felix should occur on first mention
"In 1854, Bach was deemed one of the Three Bs by Peter Cornelius, the others being Beethoven and Berlioz. (Hans von Bülow replaced Berlioz with Brahms.)": parentheses inside sentence, full stop outside brackets.
Personally I'd mention the actual sales number for the Gould recording.
I'd rework the 21st century section to include more opinions. Currently it doesn't really summarise modern consensus, just quotes a couple music critics.

References

Case should be standardised to title or sentence
ISBN segmentation should be consistent
Inconsistent linking of website, work, etc.
Ref 30 should use p. not pp.
Ref 34 should use pp.
RISM identifiers should be either all included or not
Inconsistent use of website archiving
Refs 114 and 116 should use dashes for range, not hyphens
Could ref 129 have an OCLC?
Things that would be italicised in prose (work titles) should be italicised in references
Inconsistent use of access date
Ref 150 is missing pages
Inconsistent use of publisher parameter
Ref 180 should be pp.
Books should all have ISBNs if possible, OCLCs if not
The versions of Geiringer, Karl (1966) and Chiapusso, Jan (1968) cited are too early for those ISBN, make clear what editions are used
Boyd, Malcolm, ed. (1999) and Herz, Gerhard (1985) are unused

Chicdat

I've never done one of these before, so if I completely botch it, let me know! 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 20:21, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Help edits are appreciated; nice of you to stop here to discuss enhancements. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:21, 4 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

(31 March [O.S. 21 March] 1685 – 28 July 1750) Similar-period FAs like George II of Great Britain have a lengthy footnote explaining OS vs NS dates. Could that be useful in this article?

OS and NS are already linked with lengthy explanations. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:21, 4 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Four of his twenty children, Wilhelm Friedemann, Carl Philipp Emanuel, Johann Christoph Friedrich, and Johann Christian, became composers. After "children", change the comma to a semicolon.

That semicolon would seem to break the sentence flow of "children...were composers". ErnestKrause (talk) 13:21, 4 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Many of his works use contrapuntal techniques In the lead, I would advise using a less technical term such as "counterpoint-based".

That paragraph already uses and links 'counterpoint' at the start of that paragraph. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:21, 4 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In the 18th century Bach was primarily known as an organist, while his keyboard music, such as The Well-Tempered Clavier, has been appreciated in more than 150 recordings made of it up to 2013. Change "while" to "but", maybe improve flow by saying something like, "but his keyboard music has seen greater appreciation in the modern era, such as The Well-Tempered Clavier, widely regarded as one of the most important classical works in history."

"...150 recording" is supported in the main body of the article by citation; needs RS for "most important" if that's a preference. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:21, 4 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

through periodicals (and later also websites) Maybe just a style issue, but the parentheses would be better expressed using commas.

Current wording already uses comma offsets in that sentence. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:21, 4 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Early life and education

Bach's mother died in 1694, and his father died eight months later. Do we know the month of his mother's death, or at least the season? Clears up the confusion of not knowing whether the father died in 1694 or 1695.

Father died in February the following year. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:57, 4 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Any idea when he graduated from St Michael's?

Attendance was 1700-1702. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:57, 4 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Career

In January 1703 shortly after graduating from St Michael's and being turned down for the post of organist at Sangerhausen A comma or two is probably needed here.
Despite strong family connections and a musically enthusiastic employer What were the family connections?
As part of his application, he had a cantata performed at Easter, 24 April 1707, link Easter?
In 1708 Bach wrote Gott ist mein König, a festive cantata for the inauguration of the new council, which was published at the council's expense.[19] This was the only Bach cantata published in his lifetime. This is uncited text, which is not allowed in a GA. Find a source or remove the content.
Johann Sebastian and Maria Barbara had three more children—twins born in 1713 and a single birth; none survived past their first birthday. Any clue when the single birth was?
On 7 July 1720, while Bach was away in Carlsbad with Leopold, his wife, Maria Barbara Bach, suddenly died. We already linked his wife, so no need to link it again. Also remove the Bach at the end of her name.
The next year, he met Anna Magdalena Wilcke, a young, gifted soprano 16 years his junior, who performed at the court in Köthen; they married on 3 December 1721. No need to italicise Anna Magdalena's name, also link soprano. Change "who performed" to "while she was performing".
who both, especially Johann Christian, became well-known musicians; Johanna Carolina (1737–1781); and Regina Susanna (1742–1809). After the well-known musicians phrase, maybe add "as well as" to improve sentence flow.
He had to direct the St Thomas School Something more formal than "had to" would be nice.
Link Weissenfels?
Telemann in Hamburg and Graupner in Darmstadt Link Hamburg and Darmstadt.
Bach's predecessor as cantor, Johann Kuhnau, had also been music director for the St Paul's Church, the church of Leipzig University. But when Bach was installed as cantor in 1723, he was put in charge only of music for festal (church holiday) services at St Paul's Church; his petition to also provide music for regular Sunday services there (for a corresponding salary increase) went all the way to the Elector but was denied. This is a long aside and needs some serious copy-editing. Maybe trim?
a secular performance ensemble Telemann started. There's a missing "had" in there.
The concerts, all free of charge, ended with Gottfried Zimmermann's death in 1741. Explain he's the owner.
He presented the manuscript to the Elector in a successful bid to persuade the prince to give him the title of Court Composer. We don't need to capitalise court composer here.
Bach obliged, playing a three-part fugue on one of Frederick's fortepianos Explain it's the ancestor of the piano or something similar.
Are we italicising Thomaskantor or not? One style should be consistent throughout the article.

Music

that Bach wrote for his eldest son when he was nine years old. Rephrase to "for his nine-year-old eldest son" to avoid the momentary confusion of who's nine years old.
After a performance of his St Matthew Passion, someone said it all sounded much like opera. "Someone said" is more weaselish than encyclopedic. Maybe "His St Matthew Passion was described as sounding like opera" or something similar.

Reception and legacy

This has several unsourced statements and text that isn't really GA quality.

He was remembered more as a virtuoso organ player and a teacher. The bulk of the music printed during his lifetime, at least the remembered parts, was for organ or harpsichord. Thus his reputation as a composer was initially mostly limited to his keyboard music, which was relatively limited in its value to music education. All uncited.
These are on Segovia's 1969 all-Bach album on Saga Records. Uncited.
The entire second paragraph of the "20th century" section is either uncited or badly cited (to a self-published source). The information can all probably be verified, so let's try.

Also, I find it rather odd that details of his personal life (e.g. relationships, children, appearance, personality) are scattered throughout the article or, in some cases, not mentioned at all. Maybe add a section in with some of that. 🐔 Chicdat ^{Bawk to me!} 20:24, 31 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

FAC PR sidebar

@ErnestKrause: I have added this to the FAC PR review sidebar. Please consider reviewing other articles listed there, and please remove this entry when this is closed. Z1720 (talk) 15:05, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]