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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 30 May 2025 [1].

Harry Crerar

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Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 22 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Harry Crerar, Canada's most senior field commander in the Second World War, who commanded the First Canadian Army in the campaign in North West Europe in 1944–1945. I prepared this article as part of a series on the senior commanders in the campaign, but never got around to them all. Crerar is not a household name even in Canada, but Canada is in the news a lot lately. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:25, 22 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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Hawkeye7 ? Gog the Mild (talk) 19:51, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Gog, I removed the image from the article. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:59, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment -- I notice the Knight of Saint John isn't showing up in the post-noms in the first sentence, leaving an odd-looking double comma; obviously the post-nom template could be altered to include this but can we confirm that it is a recognised post-nom in Canada (since I don't think it is everywhere)? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:08, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Since 1990, the Order of St John is a recognised order in Canada, but the post-nominals are not used. [3] I believe that they were used in the past eg. [4] Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:44, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support Nick-D

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As a disclaimer, Hawkeye approached me to ask if I could comment on this nomination via my talk page. I think that I'm an appropriately tough judge though ;) I have the following comments:

  • The Normandy section would benefit from being renamed as it has a much wider scope and being split into sub-sections
  • In this section, it's never made really clear why Montgomery didn't have confidence in Crerar. It would also be good to know what Crerar's views of Montgomery were.
  • Crerar maintained a policy after the war of not criticising his colleagues or subordinates. As far as Canadians are concerned, the important issue was Dieppe, and Crerar always defended Montgomery over this. The two men never became friends, but that was Montgomery; he remained friends with Brooke. Should this be added to the article? I gave an example of Montgomery's sensitivity in handling Canadian affairs in the instance of Keller. Normandy was a brutal affair and Montgomery relieved several British officers. Military historians generally agree with Montgomery's assessment of Simonds as Canada's best general.Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:07, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the reputation section, do sources discuss whether Montgomery's concerns over Crerar were motivated by the anti-colonial bias that was rife among British officers and politicians (which included frequent efforts to prevent Commonwealth forces from being commanded by their own leaders throughout the war), or linked to Monty's dubious leadership in this period?
    I have a whole book on the subject of Montgomery's relationship with the Canadians. Montgomery was a British regular, but not a careerist. I cannot help think that what Maughan characterised as anti-colonial bias was shaped by Montgomery's experience with the Canadians rather than the other way around. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:07, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Nick-D (talk) 10:52, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nick-D, how is this one doing? Gog the Mild (talk) 19:51, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I was waiting for one of my comments to be actioned, but it looks like it has been now - I'm very happy to support this nomination. Thank you for the ping. Nick-D (talk) 04:51, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Zawed

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Some comments:

  • In the lead, is it necessary to abbrev the DSO since it isn't mentioned again?
    Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:10, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lead: he became General Officer Commanding the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division,. Should there be an "of" after Commanding?
    Don't think so, Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:10, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lead: where he assumed command of the First Canadian Army which, although designated the Canadian First Army, contained a significant amount of British and Polish troops. How about "where he assumed command of the First Canadian Army which, despite its designation, contained a significant amount of British and Polish troops...". This does away with the repetition of "First Canadian Army".
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:10, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early years: Scottish born lawyer. Should be Scottish-born lawyer I think?
    Hyphenated. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:10, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early years: The death of his father later on in 1912 prompted a career. Suggest "The death of his father later that year prompted a career" since 1912 mentioned in the previous sentence
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:10, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • First World War: called up as units to form the artillery of the 1st Canadian Division. Is the "as units" necessary here?
    I think so; the point is that the Militia batteries became the CEF ones rather than the individuals forming new units. (Only one Australian battery did this, so I thought it was worth drawing attention to.) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:10, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • First World War: I think some of the details first para could be tightened up a little. For example, the mention of personnel numbers doesn't add much
    I thought most readers would be unfamiliar with the size of a battery. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:10, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • First World War: Although Crerar had survived the war intact. "Intact" seems an unusual way to describe it; how about "uninjured" or "without injury"?
    Changed to "unscathed". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:10, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm up to the "Corps commander" section, more to come. Zawed (talk) 10:34, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for this. Much appreciated. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:10, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing on with the review:

  • Corps commander: A much larger raid on Dieppe on 19 August involving over 6,000 Allied troops. There is an inconsistency in treatment of dates here, compared to elsewhere, in that the year is not listed.
    The usual practice is to add it for the first use in the paragraph or when the year changes. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:25, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Corps commander: the extent of the casualty information for Dieppe seems excessive for this article
    I am not sure here. pinging @Nick-D: for another opinion. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:25, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree that this could be further summarised. The key issue is that the Canadian force involved took heavy losses for no gains in a poorly planned operation. Nick-D (talk) 11:21, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, I have trimmed the text to say that. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:11, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Service in Italy: King then pressed for a second Canadian division to be sent to Italy. I wonder if it is worthwhile reminding the readers who King is. Maybe "King, still prime minister, then pressed for a second Canadian division..."
    Added that he was the PM. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:25, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Service in Italy: he was succeeded by "Tommy" Burns. This looks to be the Colonel E. L. M. Burns mentioned earlier in this article, suggesting adding "Tommy" to the first mention
    That's him. Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:25, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Army commander: became operational in Normandy at noon on 23 July,.... Another instance of a missing year.
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:25, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Army commander: Vice-Marshal Leslie (Bingo) Brown'. Express the nickname in quotation marks rather than brackets for consistency with other nicknames?
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:25, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Army commander: Montgomery responded by moving the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division to Simonds's II Canadian Corps, so Canadian officers could take action.. I'm not understanding what is meant by "take action"? Do you mean deal with the Keller situation?
    Yes. Clarified. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:25, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That's about it, pretty minor issues really so anticipate supporting. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 10:39, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Confirming that I support the promotion of this article to FA. Zawed (talk) 10:43, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

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  • "and, despite his many achievements, soon faded into relative obscurity until his death in 1965" he seemed to receive a fair number of honours and positions. It's difficult to reconcile this statement with the listing of same.
    Fair enough. Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:40, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1899, he attended Upper Canada College, the premier boarding school in Canada located in Toronto." I would put a comma after the second "Canada" to avoid ambiguity.
    Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:40, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:25, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:46, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "then returned to Ottawa two days later, where he was met by a guard of honour at Union Station." I might rephrase to "then returned to Ottawa, arriving two days later, ..." as given the distance by train, he was probably in transit for almost a day.
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:16, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since you do not mention his place of death in sourced text, the reference to his dying in Ottawa in the infobox is unsourced.
    Added, with a reference to the CDB. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:16, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:04, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support Wehwalt (talk) 21:08, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by A. B.

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I'm flattered to be asked to review this article and I'm not sure I'm qualified to evaluate featured articles. Most of my work has been with often marginal articles that end up in Category:Candidates for speedy deletion or Category:Candidates for speedy deletion. I try to get those that are salvageable up to basic notability then move onto the next cripple. So it's nice to experience the opposite here.

I have two comments:

  • The infobox does not display Crerar's foreign awards; to see them, I have to click on "show" beside "Mentioned in despatches" to get the dropdown list. This is probably not obvious to the casual reader.
  • Has anybody actually checked all the references to ensure they actually support the article text?

--A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 03:04, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  1. To save you some work, I rescued Hume Peabody from PROD.
  2. I think I put the collapsible list in so the Infobox would not get too long. (Works on mobile too. I did not know that.)
  3. At FAC, each article gets a source review, which usually involves a perform a random spot check of the sources. This is really picky, but only a random sample is checked because Featured Articles usually have too many to ask a reviewer to check them all.
Thanks for this! Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:18, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Simon Harley

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  • First World War. The Royal Air Force did not exist in 1917, so presumably Malcolm Crerar was killed whilst serving in the Royal Flying Corps?
    Yes. There was an error in the source. I have replaced it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:27, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • First World War. Is the Dickson quote really necessary, as opposed to elements being incorporated into the narrative? And if necessary, maybe it should be introduced along the lines of "Crerar's biographer Paul Dickson wrote:" then incorporate more of Dickson, from "The personal cost of war was heavy" onwards.
    Removed quote. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:27, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Between the wars" Perhaps some explanation (if possible) as to why Crerar had been the second choice for command of the RMC, yet still ended up with the job?
    Sources do not say. Decided to delete this clause. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:27, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Second World War: Chief of the General Staff. Some dates are maybe needed to anchor the Hong Kong section - when Crerar met Grassett, when the troops were sent, also identifying the December as December 1941.
    Added dates. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:27, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Second World War: Corps Commander. "In January 1943, Crerar was created a Companion of the Order of the Bath, the highest level of award permitted by Canadian government policy." Presumably this stems back to the Nickle Resolutions?
    Yes. Added a link. In Australia, hereditary titles were forbidden, but knighthoods remained on and off until 2015. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:27, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Observations: Some full names, e.g. Arthur Edward Grassett, which contrast with the way most names are rendered?
    I was just following the name of the article. Changed to "Arthur Grassett". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:27, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Apart from that, a very interesting and balanced life of Crerar. —Simon Harley (Talk). 20:27, 24 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:27, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. Support. —Simon Harley (Talk). 14:22, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source and image review

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File:HDGCrerararrivingatcamp.jpg has pretty inconsistent information re Flickr links. File:The British Army in North-west Europe 1944-45 BU5861.jpg has a broken URL. Files are well-placed but seem to lack ALT text. British Pathe is apparently written with é but I wonder if it's being used as a source (as the citation format implies) Are there any reviews of "Failure in High Command: The Canadians and the Normandy Campaign"? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:55, 26 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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