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Milky Way

Do you remember those adverts they had with those bubble people all stuck together? Do you know where I would get one of those? Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 16:23, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

No idea; try WP:REFDESK. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:17, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Ok. Good suggestion. I saw a pic of you in front of the place and thought you might know. Thanks anyhow. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:22, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

page for Prs Libraries

Hello there,

we received your talk about the spam addresses. We apology for the troubles. Pianorarescores library is linked on many sites and we wanted to have a trace on wikipedia too. Is there any chance, like for other library, to build a page about Prs Libraries project?

Thanks for your attention. George Murfin Support Team of Pianorarescores.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prslibraries (talk • contribs) 01:32, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

(not Andy, but I feel the need to comment) Your link might, and I stress MIGHT be ok if you were offering free and legal scores, but even then it's unlikely as IMSLP has the majority of them covered. I do see your site might offer some uniqueness, but even then the fact that you're selling it pretty much means that, yes, any attempt to insert a link to it would be spam, especially by someone with the user name that's clearly promoting said site. So no, there's no chance, unless third party sources say your site is worthy, in which case someone else with no ties to your company could make a WP page an have a link to the official site on it. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 02:32, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Ditto the above; see also WP:CORP. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

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Inline templates

Hi,

In future, please use |type=tiny when nominating inline templates for deletion. Most editors know about as much about templatespace and TfD as they know about the Voynich Manuscript, hence the knee-jerk nonsense in the {{marriage}} and {{event}} TfDs. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 22:47, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

There appears to be no such option, in Twinkle. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:51, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
That's a bug in Twinkle. It's bitten me before, resulting in exactly the same TfD trainwreck. One of us should probably head to Github and fix that, or else file a bug. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 22:59, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
I'll raise it in Twinkle's talk page; but I'm not a coder. Your move ;-) Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:05, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Should we use start date/end date, or not?

Please see this revert. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:27, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you; I've left a message at User talk:Number 57#Date templates. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:37, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm still no clearer as to why they are necessary. Number 57 13:48, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 07 January 2013

Meta is the wiki that has coordinated a wide range of cross-project Wikimedia activities, such as the activities of stewards, the archiving of chapter reports, and WMF trustee elections. The project has long been an out-of-the-way corner for technocratic working groups, unaccountable mandarins, and in-house bureaucratic proceedings. Largely ignored by the editing communities of projects such as Wikipedia and organizations that serve them, Meta has evolved into a huge and relatively disorganized repository, where the few archivists running it also happen to be the main authors of some of its key documents. While Meta is well-designed for supporting the librarians and mandarins who stride along its corridors, visitors tend to find the site impenetrable—or so many people have argued over the past decade. This impenetrability runs counter to Meta's increasingly central role in the Wikimedia movement.
The dawning of a new year offers both a fresh slate and an opportunity to revisit our previous adventures. 2012 marked the fifth anniversary of the WikiProject Report and was the column's most productive year with 52 articles published. In addition to sharing the experiences of Wikipedia's many active projects, we expanded our scope to highlight unique projects from other languages of Wikipedia, and tracked down all of the former editors-in-chief of the Signpost for an introspective interview ... While last year's "Summer Sports Series" may have drawn yawns from some readers, a special report on "Neglected Geography" elicited more comments than any previous issue of the Report. Following in the footsteps of our past three recaps, we'll spend this week looking back at the trials and tribulations of the WikiProjects we encountered in 2012. Where are they now?
The past 12 months have seen a multitude of issues and events in the Wikimedia foundation, the movement at large, and the English Wikipedia. The movement, now in its second decade, is growing apace in its international reach, cultural and linguistic diversity, technical development, and financial complexity; and many factors have combined to produce what has in many ways been the biggest, most dynamic year in the movement's history. Looking back at 2012, we faced a difficult task in doing justice to all of the notable events in a single article; so the Signpost has selected just a few examples from outside the anglosphere, from the English Wikipedia, and from the Wikimedia Foundation, rather than attempting to cover every detail that happened.
Over the past year, 963 pieces of featured content were promoted. The most active of the featured content programs was featured article candidates (FAC), which promoted an average of 31 articles a month. This was followed by featured picture candidates (FPC; 28 a month). Coming in third was featured list candidates (FLC; 20 a month). Featured topic and featured portal candidates remained sluggish, each promoting fewer than 20 items over the year.
Following on from last week's reflections on 2012, this week the Technology report looks ahead to 2013, a year that will almost certainly be dominated by the juggernauts of Wikidata, Lua and the Visual Editor.

This Month in GLAM: December 2012



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Template:Infobox theatre

From its edit history, you seem to know a lot about this template and I wondered if you could help me. The |owner= parameter doesn't seem to work properly. When filled in it simply presents the name of the owner, center-aligned beneath the architect and doesn't display the label Owner, making the infobox very confusing. See for example Derby Theatre (The owner is University of Derby). Best, Voceditenore (talk) 16:14, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I looked and tried to fix, did it work? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:33, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
It didn't work, but it gave me clue of how to fix it. Now it works :) Best, Voceditenore (talk) 17:06, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Use of Debrett's

Happy New Year! I've started an article on Dr Martin Read CBE in my sandbox. As he's got a CBE and he's in Debrett's I'm assuming he's notable. Is it bad form to take most of the Debrett's entry and rewrite it in my own words and put in a few other sources for the statements there, or should I make sure that there's a source for every statement that I put in that doesn't come from Debrett's? Paulmorriss (talk) 15:45, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, a CBE usually confers notability. Facts cannot be copyrighted, but prose can, so it depends on whether you're paraphrasing a list of achievements or a more creatively-written description. See WP:PARAPHRASE for more advice. Please source every statement. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:55, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for that guidance. Paulmorriss (talk) 15:47, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikidata weekly summary #40

Here's your quick overview of what has been happening around Wikidata over the last week.
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Info-boxes again

Further to recent discussion, may I ask you to have a look, when you have a moment, at David Sheppard – using one of the hand-held devices you have referred to apropos of boxes. On an ordinary screen the C of E and the Cricket info-boxes don't sit together very beautifully, and look rather amateurish, I think. I have left a note on the article talk page asking for suggestions on how to merge them, but I wonder how they look when viewed on a small portable screen such as you mention. It's a matter of general application, but on top of that I am hoping to upgrade Dr Sheppard's article in the not-too-distant future. All help gratefully received. Regards. Tim riley (talk) 15:22, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

They work fine on mobile, but I've made some tweaks so that they will function even better, with the second box in a collapsed section. You can simulate this on a larger-screen machine by visiting http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Sheppard - note "m." in URL - and then resizing your window to a tall, narrow column, to approximate the width of a mobile phone. I've replied to your other point on the talk page. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:54, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Shall pursue. Tim riley (talk) 22:38, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Michelin stars

The article List of Michelin starred restaurants in the Netherlands is already heavy and with your move it will become even worse. But I hope you will take care of the naming of the templates there and fix all redirects... The Banner talk 17:04, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

There is no need to "fix" redirects; they're doing their job. As for making the article "heavy", I merely added "alt" attributes, per WP:ALT, to make the rating accessible to people with visual impairment, who use assistive software. If the list cannot cope with that, it is already too big, and should be subdivided. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:41, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
It is that you changed "michelinstar" to "michelinstars" that worried me. But if it is okay to leave it so, I will do that. The Banner talk 01:12, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

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WP Infoboxes in the Signpost

The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject Infoboxes for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions, so be sure to sign your answers. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. –Mabeenot (talk) 22:42, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 14 January 2013

After six years without creating a new class of content projects, the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) has finally expanded into a new area: travel. Wikivoyage was formally launched—though without a traditional ship's christening—on 15 January, having started as a beta trial on 10 November. Wikivoyage has been taken under the WMF's umbrella on the argument that information resources that help with travel are educational and therefore within the scope of the foundation's mission.g
On January 16, voting for the first round of the 2012 Wikimedia Commons Picture of the Year contest will begin. Wikimedia editors with 75 edits or one project are eligible to vote to select their favorite image featured in 2012. ... On January 15, the foundation launched its latest grant scheme, called Individual Engagement Grants (IEG).
This week, we set off for the final frontier with WikiProject Astronomy. The project was started in August 2006 using the now-defunct WikiProject Space as inspiration. WikiProject Astronomy is home to 101 pieces of Featured material and 148 Good Articles maintained by a band of 186 members. The project maintains a portal, works on an assortment of vital astronomy articles, and provides resources for editors adding or requesting astronomy images.
Current discussions on the English Wikipedia include...
Comforting those grieving after the loss of a loved one is an impossible task. How then, can an entire community be comforted? The Internet struggled to answer that question this week after the suicide of Aaron Swartz, a celebrated free-culture activist, programmer, and Wikipedian at the age of 26.
Continuing our recap of the featured content promoted in 2012, this week the Signpost interviewed three editors, asking them about featured articles which stuck out in their minds. Two, Ian Rose and Graham Colm, are current featured article candidates (FAC) delegates, while Brian Boulton is an active featured article writer and reviewer.
The opening of the Doncram case marks the end of almost 6 months without any open cases, the longest in the history of the Committee.
The Wikidata client extension was successfully deployed to the Hungarian Wikipedia on 14 January, its team reports. The interwiki language links can now come from wikidata.org, though "manual" interwiki links remain functional, overriding those from the central repository.

Talkback yourself

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Wikidata weekly summary #41

Here's your quick overview of what has been happening around Wikidata over the last week.
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Suzanne Moore

You typed: "Not satisfactory to make an unexplained comment like that". Check the edit history, someone added details after you asked for clarification on 14 January following my passing reference to the content of Tim Stanley's Telegraph article which contains the further details I referred to - as readers might expect. Moore's career in journalism now goes back a quarter of a century, and her unwise and peculiar comment in the Statesman reprint is at risk of unbalancing the article. For that reason, I added a WP:UNDUE link, given that the article may attract new editors. Philip Cross (talk) 18:53, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

None of what you say justifies having "she had made other comments on Twitter", with no further explanation, in the article. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:58, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Then perhaps my point should be removed rather than a request for clarification added? Unless you disagree with my point about undue weight. Philip Cross (talk) 19:14, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I have converted all instances of {{Geolinks-US-buildingscale}} to {{Coord}} in main article space. 30–40 links still exist in User and talk space. Shall we put it up for deletion now? Additionally, what about this: Template talk:Geolinks-US-streetscale/Archive 1? The template has been deleted. Shouldn't this talk archive be deleted also? •••Life of Riley (T–C) 05:26, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I speedied the archive talk page; and TfD'd the template. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:42, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

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The Bugle: Issue LXXXII, January 2013

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The Signpost: 21 January 2013

The English Wikipedia's requests for adminship (RfA) process has entered another cycle of proposed reforms. Over the last three weeks, various proposals, ranging from as large as a transition to a representative democracy to as small as a required edit count and service length, have been debated on the RfA talk page. The total number of new administrators for 2012 was just 28, barely more than half of 2011's total and less than a quarter of 2009's total. The total number of unsuccessful RfAs has fallen as well. These declining numbers, which were described in what would now be considered a successful year (2010) as an emerging "wikigeneration gulf", have been coupled with a sharp decline in the number of active administrators since February 2008 (1,021), reaching a low of 653 in November 2012.
This week, we spent some time with WikiProject Linguistics. Started in January 2004, the project has grown to include 7 Featured Articles, 4 Featured Lists, 2 A-class Articles, and 15 Good Articles maintained by 43 members. The project's members keep an eye on several watchlists, maintain the linguistics category, and continue to build a collection of Did You Know? entries. The project is home to six task forces and works with WikiProject Languages and WikiProject Writing Systems.
This week, the Signpost's featured content section continues its recap of 2012 by looking at featured topics. We interviewed Grapple X and GamerPro64, who are delegates at the featured topic candidates.
The opening of the Doncram case marks the end of almost 6 months without any open cases, the longest in the history of the Committee.
On 22 January, WMF staff and contractors switched incoming, non-cached requests (including edits) to the Foundation's newer data centre in Ashburn, Virginia, making it responsible for handling almost all regular traffic. For the first time since 2004, virtually no traffic will be handled by the WMF's other facility in Tampa, Florida.

{{Marriage}} and {{event}}

The TfD has now closed, with a result that was to be expected considering how much heat was generated. If you fancy coding up a simple new version of both templates which can easily be used to substitute the existing transclusions without the broken uF data then let me know and I'll see if I can get the closing admin to agree to substitution. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:37, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to take it to DRV first. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:06, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't think that doing so while there still isn't a clear path to resolution is the best approach. Moreover, DRV is really only supposed to be for cases where the close cannot amicably be worked out with the closing admin. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikidata weekly summary #42

Here's your quick overview of what has been happening around Wikidata over the last week.
  • Development
    • Updated demo system
    • Improved design of sites code in core
    • Fixed SQLite compatibility
    • Worked on implementing references handling in statements user interface
    • Useful error messages will be shown in statements user interface in case of data value mismatches
    • Switched the demo system to Labs’ puppet
    • Selenium tests for length constraint, claim edit-conflicts
    • Setting up dispatcher script on internal test machine
    • More work on wikibase.getEntities() function for Scribunto/Lua-Templates
    • AbuseFilter is now working with Wikibase
    • The change dispatcher script is now ready for use on the WMF cluster
    • Initial implementation of {{#property}} parser function for the client
    • Created a widget for the client to connect a page to a Wikidata item and add interwiki language links to a page
    • Preparing a page to list unconnected pages on the clients
  • Discussions/Press
  • Events
  • Other Noteworthy Stuff
  • Open Tasks for You
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Great username...

...part one or two...? Basket Feudalist 19:21, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 28 January 2013

On New Year's Day, the Daily Dot reported that a "massive Wikipedia hoax" had been exposed after more than five years. The article on the Bicholim conflict had been listed as a "Good Article" for the past half-decade, yet turned out to be an ingenious hoax. Created in July 2007 by User:A-b-a-a-a-a-a-a-b-a, the meticulously detailed piece was approved as a GA in October 2007. A subsequent submission for FA was unsuccessful, but failed to discover that the article's key sources were made up. While the User:A-b-a-a-a-a-a-a-b-a account then stopped editing, the hoax remained listed as a Good Article for five years, receiving in the region of 150 to 250 page views a month in 2012. It was finally nominated for deletion on 29 December 2012 by ShelfSkewed—who had discovered the hoax while doing work on Category:Articles with invalid ISBNs—and deleted the same day.
A special issue of the American Behavioral Scientist is devoted to "open collaboration".
When we challenged the masters of WikiProject Chess to an interview, Sjakkalle answered our call. WikiProject Chess dates back to December 2003 and has grown to include 4 Featured Articles and 15 Good Articles maintained by over 100 members. The project typically operates independently of other WikiProjects, although the project would theoretically be a child of WikiProject Board and Table Games (interviewed in 2011). WikiProject Chess provides a collection of resources, seeks missing photographs of chess players, and helps determine ways that Wikipedia's coverage of chess can be expanded.
New discussions on the English Wikipedia include...
To many Wikimedians, the Khan Academy would seem like a close cousin: the academy is a non-profit educational website and a development of the massive open online course concept that has delivered over 227 million lessons in 22 different languages. Its mission is to give "a free, world-class education to anyone, anywhere." This complements Wikipedia's stated goal to "imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge", then go and create that world. It should come as no surprise, then, that the highly successful GLAM-Wiki (galleries, libraries, archives, museums) initiative has partnered with the Khan Academy's Smarthistory project to further both its and Wikipedia's goals.
This week, the Signpost featured content section continues its recap of 2012 by looking at featured lists. We interviewed FLC directors Giants2008 and The Rambling Man as well as active reviewer and writer PresN.
The Doncram case has continued into its third week.
As reported in last week's "Technology Report", the WMF's data centre in Ashburn, Virginia took over responsibility for almost all of the remaining functions that had previously been handled by their old facility in Tampa, Florida on 22 January. The Signpost reported then that few problems had arisen since handover. Unfortunately that was not to remain the case, with reports of caching problems (which typically only affect anonymous users) starting to come in.

Wikidata weekly summary #43

Here's your quick overview of what has been happening around Wikidata over the last week.
  • Development
    • Deployment on the Hebrew and Italian Wikipedia ([1] [2] [3])
    • Switched the Wikipedias over to a new, more scalable dispatching changes script for propagating changes from the repository to the clients
    • Fixing various deeply buried bugs and a few minor bugs reported after deployment
    • Preparations for next deployment on wikidata.org
    • Working on property parser function for the client
    • Implemented robust serialization of changes for dispatching
    • Resumed work on linked data interface
    • References can now be created, edited and removed on existing statements
    • Several minor user interface fixes
    • Styling of the user interface for statements
    • Selenium tests for references
    • Selenium tests for non-JS SpecialPages
    • Worked on puppet
  • Discussions/Press
  • Events
  • Other Noteworthy Stuff
  • Open Tasks for You
    • Test statements on the [demo system before the roll-out to wikidata.org on February 4
    • Hack on one of these
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Tullow Oil

Hi - I am very confused by your amendments to Tullow Oil. I had re-written the material using sources that do not require a subscription. I am not clear whether the problems were caused by problems in Ghana or Uganda or both. Are you able to access the Sunday Times and sort this out? Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 23:27, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I suggest you take this up with the editor whose content I re-added. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:35, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
OK. I suppose he must have access to the Sunday Times! Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 23:39, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Possibly unfree File:Westmidsarmsbutton.PNG

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Westmidsarmsbutton.PNG, has been listed at Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the file's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the file description page. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at the discussion if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 11:47, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

UoB 4 Feb 2013

Hi.Nhldn (talk) 10:02, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

This is great. KhotanDigger91 (talk) 10:02, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Good Morning! ARCollins (talk) 10:02, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Hello SophieSophs (talk) 10:02, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Great presentation. JordanVenton-Rublee (talk) 10:03, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

This is fantastic stuff Aaqib91 (talk) 10:03, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

hey Emmasmithx (talk) 10:03, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

hello, thanks Sophhg (talk) 10:04, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Help with infobox template creation

I come here kind of converted (after I reverted you many times) and ask for your help in creating an infobox template. I managed to use an existing one in Chor von St. Bonifatius and got help for the pic cropping ;) Now I would like to have one for the Bach cantatas (about 200) and started, after the model choir, here. One problem I see: the page name (example BWV 40: Darzu ist erschienen der Sohn Gottes, BWV 40) is not the wanted name, only the text portion of it, the BWV # should go separately. Where to place Johann Sebastian Bach? Please feel free to change and advise, perhaps right there, I'll watch, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:05, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

You have separate |name= and |title= parameters; is that deliberate, or is one redundant? |name= will default to using the page's title, if you don't enter a value, but if you enter, say |name=Darzu ist erschienen der Sohn Gottes that will display. Do all the cantatas have German names; and should we also include an English translation? Are there cantatas by other composers, for whom this infobox could also be used? I've moved the template to {{Infobox Bach cantata}} and made some tweaks, and will do more once you've answer this. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:40, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Thank you! (I didn't know enough to tell the difference between title and name, nor about the default, learning.) I thought about it some more and think we might expand it to Bach compositions in general, then we might use the BWV number for the title and have the (longish) German title in smaller print. I am not enthusiastic about a translation, because there are always several, none of them is a title, only attempts, not even the German ones are titles, they are known by the first line of text, - some make sense, others not. I also thought about more parameters like key, number of movements, number of chorales. Actually, then every chorale might get a year/poet/composer. The German WP has always the same picture of old Bach, but that is way too old for 95% of his compositions. I would rather use one for the first location of performance. - After polishing a bit more we should discuss it with project Classical, of course ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:10, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
I shall look forward to that. Are you happy to proceed with the changes you suggest, or do you need help from me? Shout if and when you do. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:21, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
I will sing when I need help, more likely tomorrow. (watching here) - As I complete surprise, I heard BWV 36 yesterday! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:29, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Bach composition

I changed a bit, started {{Infobox Bach composition}}, and announced that, (keeping the other in case 2 are wanted). If "composition", the variables for voices would be optional. Assuming we wanted several variables for each chorale (title, poet, year, composer), how would that look? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:17, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I added "type", and followed the date example in BWV 36 and 152. Could you please start the documentation? It looks like it's there to stay ;) - Where can we define the abbreviations for scoring? At present they are in the List of Bach cantatas, linked for cantatas but not other works, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:01, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Done. I've moved the scoring to the end, under a linked sub-heading. Note the markup in the example, which is different from that in the live article. Please copy it back there if or when you're happy with it. Do you think, for example, that {{abbr|Cemb|cembalo}}, which renders as Cemb, would be better if it was entered as {{abbr|Cemb|harpsichord}} and rendered as Cemb? (You may get a pop-up "tool-tip", if you hover your mouse over those, depending on which browser you use). We could create a template for each, such as {{harpsichord}}, to make data entry more intuitive; but not all the desired names may be available.

Also, I note that you have "ATB" (no spaces) but "S A T B" (with spaces). Perhaps both should be rendered as a list, using {{flatlist}}? For example:

  • S
  • A
  • T
  • B

and perhaps "2Co" should be rendered as "2×Co"?

Finally (for now!) can {{Infobox Bach cantata}} be redirected to {{Infobox Bach composition}}, or deleted? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:46, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your ideas! Beginning in the end: the questions (one or two templates, if one which name) should be answered by (slow) Classical music, let's perhaps redirect cantata for now. Its A T B for the soloists because they almost always sing one after the other, SATB because they sing almost always together, both consistent with the infobox in German. SATB is so common an abbreviation that I would hesitate to spell it out. The abbr for instruments are not quite as common, but well known among musicians, - for the others: it's all there in prose in the article. Let's keep thinking. Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:06, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
I'll do the redirect shortly. Abbreviations need to be marked up as shown, even if they are explained elsewhere in the article. You could use, say, {{abbr|SATB|soprano, alto, tenor and bass}}. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:14, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
To write "soprano, alto, tenor and bass" is like writing "Doctor" instead of "Dr.", "International Business Machines" instead of "IBM", would you? SATB even has an article, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:22, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
For the latter, probably not, as "IBM" is, I believe, now the formal name of the company. For "doctor", certainly - and that is far more widely understood by the general public than "SATB". If SATB exists, then it should be a link in the infobox. [[SATB|{{abbr|SATB|soprano, alto, tenor and bass}}]] should do it; it renders as SATB. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:37, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for starting the documentation. I suggest let's leave Cosima alone for now, more interested in my promised article (linked today) - which made me add fields ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:51, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

See history of BWV 105 for a comment on beauty. I could do without a background colour for the heading ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:03, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Disappointing to see you reverted there. I've removed the colour; let me know if you prefer some other (pastel?), shade Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:08, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
I like this. No idea about the owner's preferences ;) - losing people is worse than a revert for lack of beauty, just happened again, - I am getting too used to it, screamed only the first time (top of my talk) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:18, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
Now the owner designed his own on Classical music. What would it mean, technically, to have occasion,date and location of first performance all three in one para? - I found it separate in de and fr. There are many works without knowledge of a first performance, but I would still like to mention a location for those. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:59, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
There are two issues; how the date is entered, and how it is displayed. It is important that data such as location and date of first performances are entered as separate parameters (in other words, that there is a high degree of granularity). How it is displayed is an aesthetic preference, and I have no strong view, not least because (unlike data granularity) changes can easily be applied later). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:29, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
How would a display of two data, entered separately but shown in one line, look like? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:15, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

It depends. If you have, say a town and country, you can use:

data8 = {{{town|}}}, {{{country|}}}

which will give;

Town, Country

but if one or other value is missing, you still get the comma:

Town,
, Country

so you need to build in conditional statements. That's at the limit of my expertise. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:06, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Makes me think we should leave it separate if possible ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:12, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
I made a few changes
  • just Translation - below the title, the repetition seems redundant
  • have field now which combine in one line date and location (both composed and performed)
  • drop "first", open to list more than one performace, such as US premiere ;)
please check, I am new to this, applied only in my sandbox so far, but will make the round, and adjust the doc --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:20, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
not in your sandbox; but that looks fine. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:32, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
I changed the template itself, but applied the data changes only in my Bach sandbox (then), - now also in BWV 40 41 63, more to come. - I thought it would solve to list more than one performance, but realize: no. How would that work, to have more than one set of date & location? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:48, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Merge the parameters on one line, and enter thus:

| performance = {{Plainlist| * {{Start date|1723|7|25|df=y}}, [[Leipzig]] * 1 August 1723, [[Vienna]] }}

Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:54, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

That would not work at present, performance is a combination of two data fields, - can you fix that? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:11, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Th only way to do that is to have |performance1=, |date1=, |performance2=, |date2=, |performance3=, |date3=, etc. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:21, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
That's what I saw coming, not too elegant. - Different idea: a template "event" instead of "Start date" that has the location as an additional parameter? Or is there something available already? Bach's works are probably not the only performances that might profit from such a thing? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:37, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Like {{Timeline-event}}? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:42, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Like it, yes, but instead of the event it would be a location, and instead of dates on a timeline, it would be just dates. Example: BWV 63 was first performed on Christmas Day between 1713 and 1717 in Halle (we don't know exactly which year, nor the place), for sure in 1723 in Leipzig. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:03, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
I "forced" the second performance there, but it's not the most elegant way ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:51, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Though that looks OK, the metadata now says the piece was performed on 25 December 1713, in a location called "[Halle (Saale)|Halle]]? 25 December 1723 Leipzig". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:01, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
That's what I called "not most elegant". Should we set up 3 performances, and whoever needs a fourth, may adjust? If yes, would you do that? - Different question: how to say that we are not sure about a date or a place? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:32, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Sure; I'm a bit busy now (or should be!), but will get on it later. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:42, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Sets of similar Bach compositions

I ran into a new question. There are groups of compositions handled in one article, I looked at Missa (Bach) first, but there will be harpsichord concertos etc.. Scoring can be named only generally, is different for the single works, - so is key. Can the appearance of the header "Scoring" be conditional, only if at least one of the three individual scoring fields is not empty? Could there be more than one infobox in an article, in Missa we might have 5 individual ones on top of the summary? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:05, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Aother of those cases : Christmas Oratorio, in six parts, each a different scoring, different day of first performance, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:01, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

And of course the Brandenburg concertos, 6 with very different scoring --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:23, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

To simplify, I changed Scoring from header to data. How can that appear even if nothing is entered, to have the link to the abbreviations? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:18, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

By now, I changed that, please check if the "forced" display is acceptable, example BWV 40. Four more precise scoring, I suggest to have additional paras, "solo_voice' (if only one), "solo_instrument", "solo_instruments". Or is there a good reason to have "notable work(s)"? Wouldn't "work" mean the same, less ugly (borrowed word from a critique)? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:24, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for lack of response; I haven't forgotten you, just busy IRL. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 00:09, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

no problem, no rush, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:14, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
BWV 40 just became a GA, thanks to the infobox ;) - Before copying more, I would like to see a solution to the multiple occurrences of a parameter with two data, such as in performance: "location" "date". One more question: if a date or place is not certain, is it enough to add a "?", or should it be somewhat more formal? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:49, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Where, if at all, would we include if it was Annual cycle I, II, III? A separate para seems awkward. - How could the location in the "years active" also be metadata, - similar question as "composed" and "performed", 2 fields connected, several occurences. - How can we say how many parts (if needed)? Some cantatas have two, Christmas oratorio 6, each part can have its number of movements, on top of the sum of all movements? That's more a question of logic than music ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:58, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

For location with years active; consider using {{Timeline-event}}, which I've just updated for this purpose. For example, {{Timeline-event|date={{Start date|1723}}|end_date={{End date|1750}}|location=Leipzig}} I'm pondering other issues. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:59, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Taken to Bach! - something like that might work for "Notable work", giving title and location and/or earliest/latest date(s), whatever known, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:58, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
ps: BWV 105 added again, reverted again, but found a helper ;) - made a DYK with 4 cantatas, all with an infobox ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:48, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Had to remove 105 from the samples (again). - In {{start date}}, is there a way to have the date not split in two lines? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:59, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Try <nowrap>{{Timeline-event|date={{Start date|1723}}|end_date={{End date|1750}}|location=Leipzig}}</nowrap>. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:02, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
in the template? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:23, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
In the data field of the infobox, in an article. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:40, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
doesn't work for start date, didn't try timeline because that might make the box to broad, to have location AND date in one line, the example is BWV 198, also an example for 2 parts, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:46, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
I made some changes in the template. Try now Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:14, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Helped for now, thank you! - What if there's no date for composition? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:13, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

If there are such cases, we'd need to write more complex, condtional code. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:15, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

or leave it - often we don't know. I try to keep things simple, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:27, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) {{start date}} just needs this change, which will also bring it in line with {{end date}}. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:36, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
I've just spotted this - and it's now obvious why {{start date}} wasn't working - there was a missing pipe. That is, instead of {{Start date|1723df=y}} (which displays as {{Start date|1723df=y}} i.e. nothing at all), it should have been {{Start date|1723|df=y}} (which displays as 1723 (1723)). Since there are neither day nor month, the |df=y may be omitted, to give {{Start date|1723}}. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:58, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Parameters

I tried to add a parameter for Cantata cycle, just in case it might be wanted. First problem: someow I lost the last one, Obbligato, in the process of renumbering and am blind for my mistake. Second: could that parameter be there, but not shown? Not to repeat to those who know that every chorale belongs to II, Leipzig before is I etc. Thirdly, if shown, can something like Cantata cycle be applied? To have two lines of label for one number seems awkward. Or should the information rather be added elsewhere? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:51, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

|cantata_cycle= is working fine; when you update a /doc page you may need to purge it before you see the changes transcluded on the parent template page. You could use {{nowrap|Cantata cycle}}, but why not just "Cycle"? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:21, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
|cantata_cycle= is working fine, it's |obbligato= which is not. - Why not cycle: because the template is meant to be general for all compositions, and an editor of a keyboard work may have no idea what that parameter is about. (I don't trust them to actually read the doc, knowing how I work.) - I recommended an infobox in FAC Richard Wagner and a composition PR ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:47, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm at a loss to understand why |obbligato= isn't showing; you might get help on WP:VPT. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
will look (yesterday I found a missing comma where another user had starred and found nothing, I hoped you would be the one this time) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:18, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) The |obbligato= - is the problem that the parameter doesn't work when used in articles that use {{Infobox Bach composition}}, or that it doesn't show on the doc page for that infobox? --Redrose64 (talk) 16:08, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Excellent question, it does appear in BWV 32! (Missed that.) But not in the template doc. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:19, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Fixed --Redrose64 (talk) 16:44, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Doh! Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:51, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Thank you, - I said I was blind ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:12, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I added one more parameter, |known_as=, for nick names, this time without problems ;) - I think the template is stable enough now to be inserted. I added accessibility to the goals of WP:QAI. Feel invited to become a member! (Infobox Wagner is started in my sandbox, comments welcome before the battle.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:14, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

All good stuff. Thanks for letting me know. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:56, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

More general

Did you see my question on Classical about {{Infobox musical composition}}? Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:06, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I've added |Key=, {{para|Movements}] and |Related=. I'll happily do the rest, if you can be a little more specific. Do you want all the text and scoring parameters from {{Infobox Bach composition}}? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:32, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Actually, we would need much more if we wanted to cover the instruments of a 20th century orchestra. One step after the other, I would say, and ask the project ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:41, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Feel free to draw up a list once you've one that, and I'll implement it for you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:49, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
(ec) I started here, scoring could just say string orchestra (as here), wind quintet, large orchestra, piano trio, without specifying instruments for the moment. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:51, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
next Agnus Dei (Barber) (remember, written with dedication): I think room for a pic would be good, could be composer or score - or nothing, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:18, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
There's |Cover= for images. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:50, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

University president

Which infobox do you recommend for Erich Barke? (birthday tomorrow, would be a nice gift) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:06, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

{{Infobox person}}. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:14, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Anything more specific? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:24, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
No. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:30, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Composers

Thanks, helped, - how about composers? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:33, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

{{Infobox person}} or {{Infobox musical artist}} (the latter particularly for performing composers, like Michael Nyman) . {{Infobox composer}} exits, but is a hamstrung version of the former, designed only to prevent its features being used, and with no benefits. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:46, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
I tried the performer on Graham Waterhouse, a start. I can see why the project isn't happy with the infobox ;) I don't need the heading "background" - what else? For a European person, I would prefer ddmmyyyy format for the birthday. I would like to mention where he studied, teachers, notable works. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:23, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Some members of that project are not happy with any infobox. I've fixed the date display for you, using |df=y in the date template. You can, of course, propose changing or removing the heading, on the infobox's talk page. Or just switch to {{Infobox person}}, which also has the additional fields you desire. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:43, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for help and precision ;) Good comment on Cosima! I will look at Person again, I must have missed parameters, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:49, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Specifically, |education= and |alma_mata=for studying. And thank you for your kind words; its a pleasure to work with you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:59, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Shared pleasure! I found education and added works, including my grave dance. I miss - for a composer - publisher and label. Getting closer to presenting to the project ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:22, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I was challenged about Bach and thought about him ;) - He was active at distinct times in different locations, different types of works those locations. Is there a way to show that in an infobox? He's probably not the only one. - Cosima: of course all these FAs don't have an infobox because they are mostly composers, - what a surprise; --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:35, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

If Bach's periods of activity are distinct and named, you could have a |period= parameter. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:44, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Not there yet in "person", right? any other, with example? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:55, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Sorry; misunderstood. You could perhaps use Infobox person's |style=, |movement=, or |years_active=, entering multiple values using {{Plainlist}}. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:59, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Let me understand: so far I avoided "style" as too narrow, "movement" showed as political, - I would like to list concertos in Köthen (certain time), cantatas in Leipzig (later), simple approach, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:16, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
JSB
Years active
  • 1703–08 (Weimar, Arnstadt, Mühlhausen}
  • 1708–17 (Return to Weimar}
  • 1717–23 (Köthen)
  • 1723–50 (Leipzig)

Something like the adjacent, perhaps Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:22, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Looks good! Then perhaps add times/places to works for the connection? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:48, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Sure. I've done some work on City of Bath Bach Choir, BTW. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:14, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Seen ;) - could use a lot of work, many more compositions should be linked, today I found a cantata with the wrong BWV # ... - but I'm still working on a cantata for New Year's Day ;) - watch my Bach sandbox for the composer, next year --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:24, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I started the Master, in my sandbox, below the other, please have a look, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:25, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Redux

Right, what still needs doing, and how can I help? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:52, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I'll start a new section ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:21, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Some bits from here:
  • should we have alt text para for pic in "Bach composition"?
  • could their be image along with cover as a para for a pic in "Musical composition"? - for so many compositions it would not be a cover
  • can/should a parameter be specified but not shown, for example genre, redundant if there's type?
ps: project WP:QAI is missing its most important people as you may know, - you could easily become one of them and make a difference ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:38, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
thank you for precious support --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:16, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
What do you think of writing a QAI page on accessibility for beginners? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:50, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I've already started drafting a page at User:Pigsonthewing/Technical robustness; not about accessibility per se, but issues of technical robustness which address accessibility and other issues. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:49, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
great! - did you know? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:08, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for splitting the different numbers in BWV 82: that results in an extra line. Could we have the same for the others? Or no line for both? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:32, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure which numbers you mean: BWV or performance dates? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:03, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
BWV (you didn't change the other) ;) - --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:45, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Oh yes I did! ;-) I used {{Plainlist}} for the BWV numbers; you can do the same, or switch to {{Flatlist}}. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:58, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
ok, I mean this, it's flat now, result 3 lines, if I use plain I get an additional line for every additional number on top of that, which is worse, - Missa (Bach) has 5! - different question: if I use nowrap around a performance, it shows "nowrap" - instead of working, what did I overlook this time? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:19, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Diff, please? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
test --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:51, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Should be {{nowrap|{{Start date|2012|02|01|df=y}}}}; my bad. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:10, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
looks promising, thanks! is the leading zero for month and day wanted? - how about the other q? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:51, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Leading zeros remind the editors that there's not a missing "1" or "2". What have I missed? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:06, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

The question about the many lines once you have a list of BWV numbers, including an empty one, vs. just one if it's one BWV number --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:37, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

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