User talk:Kansas Bear

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Happy New Username

I thought you left WP. I miss KB but the new username is cool and unique. Keep it up! --Mann Mann (talk) 16:37, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm still here. Yeah, it was time for a name change. Thanks. Stay safe Mann Mann!--Paramandyr (talk) 16:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

New Username!

Every couple of days I like to check in on the editors I know, see what they're working on and I was shocked that typing in my usual sequence only directed me towards a sockpuppet! Cool to see a a new name :) sovietblobfish (talk) 20:13, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, after 18 yrs, I felt it was time for a change. Stay safe Sovietblobfish!--Paramandyr (talk) 20:22, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue 223, November 2024

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Voting is now open for the WikiProject Military History newcomer of the year and military historian of the year awards

Voting is now open for the WikiProject Military History newcomer of the year and military historian of the year awards for 2024! The top editors will be awarded the coveted Gold Wiki. Cast your votes here and here respectively. Voting closes at 23:59 on 30 December 2024. On behalf of the coordinators, wishing you the very best for the festive season and the new year. MediaWiki message delivery via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:59, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

December 2024

Hello. Regarding the recent revert you made: you may already know about them, but you might find Wikipedia:Template index/User talk namespace useful. After a revert, these can be placed on the user's talk page to let them know you considered their edit inappropriate, and also direct new users towards the sandbox. They can also be used to give a stern warning to a vandal when they've been previously warned. Thank you. / RemoveRedSky ^(t) 14:26, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Io Saturnalia!

		Io, Saturnalia!
		Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and distraction-free. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:17, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Ealdgyth. Stay safe. --Paramandyr (talk) 15:27, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

December 2024

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 48 hours for edit warring and violating the three-revert rule, as you did at Robert de Quincy. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions.

During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection.

If you believe that there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.  Bbb23 (talk) 00:37, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Bbb23, after 18 yrs my very first block is from you!

FYI: I used to go by Kansas Bear. Have a great weekend and stay safe! --Paramandyr (talk) 00:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I remember you. I didn't know you'd changed your username; any reason why? Even without knowing who you were, I didn't like blocking you, but you violated 3RR and your reverts were not exempt per WP:3RRNO. You really shouldn't bring a report to AN3 complaining that another user violated 3RR when you yourself have also done so. Anyway, the block will expire before Xmas (if you celebrate that). Take care.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:48, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

• "I didn't know you'd changed your username; any reason why?"

I was tired of how Chicago Bears were playing for the umpteenth year.

• "I didn't like blocking you"

Its all good. I'm not taking it personal. You're a one hell of an Admin, and I honestly appreciate that. Besides, now I can do more research. :)

• "but you violated 3RR and your reverts were not exempt per WP:3RRNO."

Would you believe it was for the greater good? The editor in question is writing WP:OR and doesn't respond to talk page conversations(per Ealdgyth, BusterD, and myself).

• "You really shouldn't bring a report to AN3 complaining that another user violated 3RR when you yourself have also done so."

Yeah, I probably lost count.

• "Anyway, the block will expire before Xmas (if you celebrate that). Take care."

Well, this year I'm avoiding the family dramah and staying in Lawrence. Take care Bbb23! --Paramandyr (talk) 00:56, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Would you believe it was for the greater good? The editor in question is writing WP:OR and doesn't respond to talk page conversations(per Ealdgyth, BusterD, and myself). Yes, I believe that. Actually, at a glance, it looks like the user does respond to others on their Talk page, just not, uh, responsively.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:05, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue 224, December 2024

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SELJUK WARS LİST ARTICLE

There are many missing battles such as Battle of Nishapur (1038), Battle of Vaspurakan (1046), Siege of Ani (1064), First Georgian Campaign (1064), Mangyshlak Campaign (1065), Battle of Caesarea (1067) and Second Georgian Campaign (1068). Can you please add them? Because you created the page and I don't know how to program. There is a possibility that I may break the page. That's why I'm asking you for this. Kartal1071 (talk) 20:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you have reliable secondary sources in English for battle of Nishapur 1038, Vaspurakan 1046, Ani 1064, Caesarea 1067? I won't add campaigns since those aren't singular battles. --Kansas Bear 20:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Source: English Wikipedia. Some of the wars I write about here have their own pages. The others are on the Wikipedia Alp Arslan page. I suppose you would also consider the articles on Wikipedia to be reliable, right? Kartal1071 (talk) 21:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Go and take a look. Only the Mangışlak Campaign is mentioned in the Turkish Wikipedia. Apart from that, all the other wars are available in the English Wikipedia. Also, some wars do not have separate pages, so check the wars on the Alp Arslan page. Kartal1071 (talk) 21:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

We can not use Wikipedia articles to reference Wikipedia, per WP:CIRC. --Kansas Bear 21:23, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

In that case I will find the source and send it to you within 1 week at the latest. Kartal1071 (talk) 04:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

What is the minimum number of resources I need to find? Kartal1071 (talk) 04:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

At least one university published source indicating the battle, the belligerents, and the result of the battle should be fine. Also, the Battle of Nishapur (1038) references/sources have no page numbers thus fail verification. --Kansas Bear 19:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

This is also a source for the Georgian campaigns. You can also look at it if you want. There is also reliable information about the biography of Sultan Alp Arslan.

https://islamansiklopedisi.org.tr/alparslan

https://dergipark.org.tr/en/download/article-file/155457

https://avys.omu.edu.tr/storage/app/public/ibrahim.tellioglu/63827/6.pdf

https://www.academia.edu/50976707/Sel%C3%A7uklular%C4%B1n_Kafkasya_Politikas%C4%B1_ve_Kafkasyan%C4%B1n_T%C3%BCrkle%C5%9Fmesi_1016_1121 Kartal1071 (talk) 16:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&qsp=3&q=siege+of+ani+1064+primary+source&qst=bl#d=gs_qabs&t=1736173866316&u=%23p%3D9JHx8pEKizUJ

https://www.jstor.org/stable/48578237 Kartal1071 (talk) 14:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

battle of Caesarea

Harris Jonathan (2014) Byzantium and Crusaders

Lock, Peter (2006). The Routledge Companion to the Crusades (İngilizce). Routledge.

Jeffreys, Elizabeth; Haldon, John F.; Cormack, Robin, (Ed.) (2008). The Oxford Handbook of Byzantine Studies Kartal1071 (talk) 16:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

One of the links is for the Battle of Manzikert and the other is for the siege of Ani. Kartal1071 (talk) 16:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

This isn't looking good. The Battle of Caesarea doesn't appear to have any sources that actually call it a battle. I found instances of attack, pillage, or sack, but nothing calling this a battle. If this is the case the article needs to be re-written and the title changed. The Battle of Manzikert is already listed in the List of battles involving the Seljuk Empire. --Kansas Bear 20:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Battle of Nishapur (1038) has only one source(an unspecialized source) that mentions a victory and only in passing. Giving no details to the belligerents involved. --Kansas Bear 21:27, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

The Georgian campaign and its sudden siege? Kartal1071 (talk) 18:55, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The Byzantine forces are defeated, Kayseri is conquered and the city is looted. It is also stated in the books as such. Kartal1071 (talk) 19:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

None of the 4 sources used in the article Battle of Caesarea, state it was a battle. In a subsequent search I found zero sources calling it a battle.

None idea what you're referring to when you say "Georgian campaign sudden siege".--Kansas Bear 20:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Will you add the Georgian campaign and the siege of Ani to the list? Kartal1071 (talk) 15:40, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

You are right, it should be a siege of Caesarea, not a Battle of Caesarea. However, Wikipedia says it as a war, it needs to be corrected. Kartal1071 (talk) 15:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

No. None of the sources call the so-called "battle of Caesarea" a siege either. We can only write what the source(s) state, not what we interpret, think or want. So far it looks like it will be renamed as a raid. --Kansas Bear 16:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Will you add the Georgian campaign and the siege of Ani to the list? Kartal1071 (talk) 16:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I'll be checking it during lunch. --Kansas Bear 16:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you Kartal1071 (talk) 14:15, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Will you add the Georgian campaign to the list?

Source:

https://dergipark.org.tr/en/download/article-file/550509

https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/alp-arslan-saljuq-sultan Kartal1071 (talk) 05:52, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Please examine these sources. There is other information besides just the information about the Georgia expedition. Especially in the 2nd source. Kartal1071 (talk) 05:55, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue 225, January 2025

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Battle of Manzikert

In the source named Norwich 1993, p. 352, it is written that Dukas betrayed and retreated with 30 thousand men, but in English Wikipedia, the number of Byzantine army is 30 thousand. There is a mistake here. The same is in the English page of Romanos Diogenes. Most of the sources say that the Seljuk army was smaller. Byzantium was superior to the Seljuks in terms of soldiers and equipment. Kartal1071 (talk) 11:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

please review Kartal1071 (talk) 11:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The English version of Battle of Manzikert is a Good article(GA). I don't find a Norwich 1993, p. 352 in that version. --Kansas Bear 13:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

When I looked, it was in the Battle of Manzikert section of Romanos Diogenes. Kartal1071 (talk) 18:21, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Mateos of Edessa and Michael Attaleiates say that the Byzantine army numbered over 100 thousand. Moreover, Michael Attaleiates was a direct eyewitness to the battle. Kartal1071 (talk) 18:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

source Attaliates

https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1189/battle-of-manzikert/ Kartal1071 (talk) 18:26, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• "Mateos of Edessa and Michael Attaleiates say that the Byzantine army numbered over 100 thousand."

Those are primary sources. Secondary source are preferred for articles.

I wouldn't use worldhistory.org as a source. If you want to change/add to numbers to the Battle of Manzikert, I'd suggest posting on the article talk page and getting consensus(it's a GA level article). --Kansas Bear 19:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you Kartal1071 (talk) 04:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Seljuk Wars Alp Arslan ( Tokharistan ) 1043-1044

Shouldn't this war or struggle between Alp Arslan and Mawdud of Ghazni be called the Battle of Tokharistan because it was in the Tokharistan region? For example, the Battle of Manzikert took place in the Rahve Plain, but the name of the war was the Battle of Manzikert, and the Battle of Dandanakan took that name because it took place near the Dandanakan castle. The name situation of the battles of Sarakhs and Nesa is the same. Kartal1071 (talk) 23:13, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Tokharistan is an entire region, not a river, castle, or city.--Kansas Bear 23:22, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

But there can be no war or struggle without a name.

If you have a better idea, please let me know. Kartal1071 (talk) 23:39, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Malazgirt (Manzikert) is also a district of Türkiye. Kartal1071 (talk) 23:42, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Turkey didn't exist in 1071. So the battle would have been listed by whatever the Byzantine's called it.

• "In 1043-4, hearing that Chaghri Bed Da'ud had fallen ill, Maudud sent an army into Tukharistan. This attack was parried by the Seljuq amir's son Alp Arslan, who was at that time based on Balkh; in the ensuing battle, the Ghaznavid forces were defeated with considerable losses..." -- C.E.Bosworth, The Later Ghaznavids, page 26. --Kansas Bear 23:50, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue 226, February 2025

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Ways to improve Battle of Multan

Hello, Paramandyr,

Thank you for creating Battle of Multan.

I have tagged the page as having some issues to fix, as a part of our page curation process and note that:

Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia! My reading of this article is that it has a lot of WP:Original research, where you are synthesizing sources yourself instead of relying on secondary ones. My biggest concern is that it doesn't seem like any of the sources you use specifically refer to this skirmish as the "Battle of Multan" - Are you able to point me to a few sources that explicitly use this title in their descriptions?

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|ThadeusOfNazereth}}. Remember to sign your reply with ~~~~. For broader editing help, please visit the Teahouse.

Delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.

ThadeusOfNazereth(he/him)^{Talk to Me!} 23:40, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

You might want to look at the article history.[1] I made a redirect(nearly 5 years ago). This was removed by User:Marshmello707, who has added the current information. Perhaps you should address your concerns on their talk page? --Kansas Bear 00:36, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

My infobox flags...

Hello @Paramandyr. I have only one question. There are millions of articles with flagicons, but you are removing only mine, what's wrong? Armenian from Artsakh (talk) 23:24, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

Actually, nothing on Wikipedia is "yours", per WP:OWN. You seem to want to make this personal. Also, is this your first account or have you edited under a different name? You seem quite familiar with Wikipedia(where to find flags, proper way to make images, et.al.).

Maybe you should read that infoboxes shouldn't have flags also, children's books from Armenia, Armenian tourist websites, and facebook are not reliable sources. Continued ignoring MOS:INFOBOXFLAG will result in the notification of an admin. --Kansas Bear 23:37, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

At first I don't make anything personal, speak normal with me. At 2nd, it's not only me who putted flagicons. As I saw your last talk topic (Battle of Multan), there are mentioned flags, too, why don't you remove it? Armenian from Artsakh (talk) 23:59, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

Yes you did. Battle of Multan was a redirect and was deleted as far as I know. Also, I don't answer to you! I will edit what I want, when I want and where I want! You got a problem with that, notify an Admin. Also, stay off my talk page. --Kansas Bear 01:18, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

Nowruz: Some citation errors

Hi. Citations 79 and 187 have errors. I used Citation bot[2] but it did not fix them. Can you correct them? --Mann Mann (talk) 02:26, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

Hey Mann Mann, I can take a look. --Kansas Bear 02:27, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

Fixed! --Kansas Bear 02:37, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

Nice. Just returned editing some Eurasian topics since 7 April.[3] I guess I cannot abandon them or they don't leave me alone. lel --Mann Mann (talk) 02:40, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

Good work is never finished! --Kansas Bear 02:44, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, have a good time. Cheers! --Mann Mann (talk) 02:48, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue 228, April 2025

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Regarding § Disruptive editing from Hollowww

I reaching you and others because you have been involved in § this dispute. I sincerely apologize for the issue and starting from now on, I will rewrite all the articles from scratch (or at least try). I have priorities on rewriting some articles, such as Roman–Palmyrene War of 272–273 and Odaenathus' Sasanian Campaign, while others, like Armeno-Sassanid War of 363–371, I will rewrite in User:Hollowww/Valens' Persian campaign at some point. Some other articles will be rewritten, such as the Roman–Parthian War of 194–198, while other, I think, should be deleted, like Caracalla's campaigns of 214–216 and Maximinus' campaigns of 310. If you wish to help me, I appreciate it, contact me in any way and we will see how to manage things. Thank you again for reporting this problem to me and the community, and I will now try to solve my mistakes. Hollowww (talk) 08:56, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Asking question

Hi @Kansas Bear, I hope you're doing good, Since you know a lot about the reliability of sources and other important stuff, I really want to hear out your opinion about some page that was created like approximately months ago, Which this page is called Battle of Hamek, when I was checking the article I saw that it lacks of Secondary sources or Scholarly sources (Which violates WP:V) and the article also contains unsourced details that may fall under original research (WP:NOR) and it reflects a non-neutral point of view (WP:NPOV), I would really value your opinion on whether these concerns are warrant tagging, cleaning up, or a possible deletion discussion. Best R3YBOl (talk) 12:35, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

I'll give you some free advice. Don't add information like this to infoboxes or articles. That just sounds like you're here to degrade a particular ethnic group. Continued editing of that nature will get you block or banned. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:08, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

I didn't mean to degrade anyone but anyways thanks. I have asked you something days ago about some page but you never replied back. R3YBOl (talk) 17:21, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

• "I didn't mean to degrade anyone..."

Right.......and adding "Persian Pride shattered" was meant to inform the reader of what exactly?<<Rhetorical question.

• "I have asked you something days ago about some page but you never replied back."

I'm not required to answer to you.

So far, you've canvassed two editors, added inflammatory dialogue, and still want to add some anachronistic nonsense to "even the score" between the Sasanians and Arabs. This is enough for me to realize you are not here to build an encyclopedia, but to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. As such, you can stay off my talk page.--Kansas Bear (talk) 21:33, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Eretnids

Bro I didn't see the Uyghur part in origin, I thought they were Oghuz Turks. Thank you for correcting me. Nifushi (talk) 10:48, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Battle of Yarmuk

@Kansas Bear Hey, I noticed you reverted an IP's edit on Battle of the Yarmuk, as they seemingly piling in sources like Grant's "1001 battles". I undid some of what they did, as the page is becomig messy and unorganized. Similar issue to battle of Firaz with sources. Reaper1945 (talk) 13:47, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, best to revert on sight. If IPs(or even editors) want to change battle figures, they can use the article talk page. Thanks Reaper1945. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:09, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear There appears to be almost an edit war at Battle of Firaz now. Back and forth. Reaper1945 (talk) 17:02, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

Two of the editors can't even find the article talk page. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:40, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

As you mentioned on the talk page, the sources are so contradictory regarding this battle, and the more reliable ones dispute its existence or what happened. I don't see how Takirtakoglou's views are WP:FRINGE either as one editor mentioned. Reaper1945 (talk) 18:48, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

It isn't fringe, since I have shown that Takirtakoglou's article goes into explicit detail showing which academics doubt the occurrence of this supposed battle.

Both R3YBOl and Skitash are on the verge of disruptive editing. I've notified EdJohnston[4], again, and will wait for their input. Both R3YBOl and Skitash have chosen to ignore the article talk page and instead are tag-team edit warring against Rxsxuis. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:52, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

@Reaper1945, please feel free to give your opinion to the on-going discussion concerning the historicity of the Battle of Firaz.--Kansas Bear (talk) 21:39, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue 229, May 2025

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Nomination of Judith of Babenberg for deletion

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The Bugle: Issue 230, June 2025

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Socks

Hi Kansas, hope you're doing well.

Recently you reverted some edits made by an ip user on grounds of them being a sock of a certain G M Cupertino. Today I have observed a new IP address operating in the same area (French nobility Madeleine de La Tour d'Auvergne) with a similar edit style and linking to the same geneology website. I suspect that the user you identified may have migrated to a new sock.

I'd like to report this, but I could not find 'G M Cupertinos account, which I was hoping to use to locate the sock investigation. Would yuo happen to have a link? sovietblobfish (talk) 17:35, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

Hi Sovietblobfish! I'm ok, except for the heat(93F with a heat index of 100F) here in Kansas(ugh).

Yes, Cupertino's edits are quite easy to spot (addition of "wife" into articles, usage of genealogics.org and geneanet for sources. Just to name three.).

Here's the link for G.-M. Cupertino's SPI. Hopefully this can be addressed.

Hope you are yours are safe and healthy. Take care! --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:30, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

Also, you might happen to mention that Graham87 has reverted another IP doing the same edits. --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:50, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

Hugues de Payens

I don't think he's being disruptive anymore; he seems to have accepted the changes to Hugues' article, and now on the Nocera article as well. But I've also made a long list of policies and guidelines that he's breaking, just in case! If it happens again we can easily take it to the admin noticeboard. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:05, 26 June 2025 (UTC)

Battle of Karanovasa

Hello @Kansas Bear. I'm bothering you about the outcome of the Battle of Karanovasa and the sources used in that article. In a comment you made on the Battle of Rovine discussion page, you cited the date of this battle and called it an Ottoman victory.[5] I replied that it was the Battle of Karanovasa, not Rovine.[6] I then looked into the article a bit. The article stated that this battle was a Wallachian victory, and I searched through some of the sources I could find, but I couldn't find anything on this subject. Furthermore, some parts of the article don't even cite any sources. Could you please help me with this? Kartal1071 (talk) 21:27, 21 July 2025 (UTC)

I'll try to take a look at it tomorrow. My internet is currently having issues. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:03, 21 July 2025 (UTC)

Thank you @Kansas Bear. I wish you a good evening. Kartal1071 (talk) 22:04, 21 July 2025 (UTC)

So far I've found a thesis by Vladislav Boskovic, which mentions the battle on page 1.

Peter Sugar:"Southeastern Europe Under Ottoman Rule, 1354–1804", pages 21-22, covers the time period in question and only mentions a battle of Arges(maybe this is Karanovasa?).

I found another mention under Arges(h):

• Contact and Conflict in Frankish Greece and the Aegean, 1204-1453 Crusade, Religion and Trade Between Latins, Greeks and Turks, Nikolaos Chrissis, page 188.

Should this battle be called Arges(h)? --Kansas Bear (talk) 13:01, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

Frankly, I agree with you; the name of the battle could be the Battle of Argesh. According to the source you provided, the name of the article is the Battle of Argesh. Kartal1071 (talk) 15:46, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

Also @Kansas Bear, thank you again. Kartal1071 (talk) 15:49, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

Also, the dates of the battles are the same. Kartal1071 (talk) 15:57, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

Southeastern Europe Under Ottoman Rule, 1354–1804 The date given in this source is consistent with the Battle of Rovine. Kartal1071 (talk) 16:01, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

Battle of Argesh (1395)[7] page:22 Language:Turkish Kartal1071 (talk) 16:18, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

Battle of Argesh (1394) [8] page:68 Language:Turkish Kartal1071 (talk) 16:23, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

More sources for battle of Argesh,

• "The Ottoman Empire: 1300-1600, Halil Inalcik, page 139.
• "Historical Dictionary of the Ottoman Empire, Selcuk Aksin Somel, page xix.
• "Colonialism: An International Social, Cultural, and Political Encyclopedia [3 Volumes], Melvin E. Page, page 759.

Unfortunately, most of these sources only mention the battle, but give no explicit details. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:27, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

At that time, it seems impossible for us to make any arrangements. Kartal1071 (talk) 16:43, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear

some claim an Ottoman victory, but that's insufficient in my opinion. Based on the information you've found, I'm certain the real name of the battle is the Battle of Argeş. I'll continue research. If I find a source with a detailed account, I'll let you know. Kartal1071 (talk) 16:51, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

Battle of Karinovası (1395) [9] Language: Turkish Page:86

Battle of Rovine (1394) [10]

Battle of Karinovası (Rovine) (1395)

[11]

Kartal1071 (talk) 17:12, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

[12] page:79,80,81 Wallachian victory Kartal1071 (talk) 18:46, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear, could you please review this source? I can't access the source, that's why I asked. [13] Kartal1071 (talk) 19:04, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

I can't access that book on Jstor either. Sorry.
I think you have a case for a request move for the battle of Karanovasa to "Battle of Arges(h)"(battle that occurs October 1394). I believe the second battle would indicate the "Battle of Rovine"(battle that occurs May 1395) where Constantin Dragas dies(per "Historiographic Views on the so-called Battle of “Rovine” and its Consequences of Mircea the Elder’s Rule", Radu Cârciumaru, page 79). Do I have this correct? --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:30, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear you've definitely understood correctly. Also, if you're comfortable with it, it would be better if the conclusion were controversial. Some of our sources claim a Wallachian victory, while others claim an Ottoman victory. Some parts of the article are unsourced. Do you have any ideas for correcting this? I'm asking because unsourced content can pose a potential problem for the article's credibility in the future. After all, you're an experienced and skilled Wikipedia editor, so I'm asking. Kartal1071 (talk) 21:01, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

Also @Kansas Bear, if you have the time, could you check out the pages on Alp Arslan, Ahmad Sanjar, Selim I and Malik-Shah I? I've made some changes under the headings "Campaigns and Battles." Are there any omissions or errors? If so, I will correct them. Kartal1071 (talk) 21:11, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

Siege of Baghdad (1055) Kartal1071 (talk) 21:13, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about the "skilled and experienced" part. LOL. What we may have to do is remove everything we can't prove with source(s) and build from there. Once my internet is back up I will do a more thorough check of those sources and articles.--Kansas Bear (talk) 22:29, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

Thank you @Kansas Bear Kartal1071 (talk) 22:44, 22 July 2025 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear. If you have any trouble accessing the sources in the articles I've asked you to review, you can ask for help. I've also begun addressing the missing page numbers for the articles. Have a good day. Kartal1071 (talk) 13:38, 23 July 2025 (UTC)

On those Turkish sources, if we use the ones that give the 1394 date, is there enough information to form an article? Do any of them delve into the historiography of the battles of Argesh/Karanovasa/Rovine? We may need that if we are to connect Karanovasa to Rovine. --Kansas Bear (talk) 13:55, 24 July 2025 (UTC)

Sorry @Kansas Bear, I saw your message late because I hadn't received a notification. I visited your page to ask you a question and that's how I noticed your message. Yeah, some write the battle of 1394 as Rovine. Others write it as the Battle of Rovine (Karinovası). But there's not much detailed information. Perhaps what's written here might be helpful.[14] Otherwise, I'll continue checking every source I can find. Kartal1071 (talk) 20:47, 24 July 2025 (UTC)

How do I access the Wikipedia library? Kartal1071 (talk) 20:49, 24 July 2025 (UTC)

According to information in the source I sent, the Turks call Rovine Karinovası. Kartal1071 (talk) 20:58, 24 July 2025 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear, what are your thoughts on this? Where can we find detailed information? Do you have any recommendations? Kartal1071 (talk) 21:46, 24 July 2025 (UTC)

Page:90-91 [15] Language:French Kartal1071 (talk) 22:13, 24 July 2025 (UTC)

Just some talk page etiquette, no need to increase indentations when you are continuing your conversation. Just indent when responding to another editor.

To log into the Wikipedia library, I believe you use your Wikipedia username and password.

So far it appears we have contradicting accounts as to battle names and dates. This may take some time to assess quotes from all the sources.--Kansas Bear (talk) 23:07, 24 July 2025 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear. If I have made any mistake, whether unknowingly or knowingly, I apologize. Kartal1071 (talk) 23:38, 24 July 2025 (UTC)

It's just etiquette, not a big deal. It just makes it easier to read.--Kansas Bear (talk) 23:42, 24 July 2025 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear, I have a question. Were you able to review the resources I sent you? Is there any information in these sources that would be useful to us? I apologize for keeping you busy. Thank you again for your help. Kartal1071 (talk) 23:57, 24 July 2025 (UTC)

• "After achieving victory at the Battle of Argesh on 10 October 1394, Bayezid forced Mircea to relinquish his throne and replaced him with a more compliant vassal in the person of Vlad I...." -- "Bayezid I's Foreign Policy Plans and Priorities: Power Relations, Statecraft, Military Conditions and Diplomatic Practice in Anatolia and the Balkans", Rhoads Murphey, Contact and Conflict in Frankish Greece and the Aegean, 1204-1453: Crusade, Religion and Trade Between Latins, Greeks and Turks, ed. Nikolaos Chrissis & Mike Carr, page 188. This also mentions the battle of Rovine(page 189) as a separate battle.
• "1395: Bayezid's expedition into Hungary and Wallachia; Battle of Argesh (17 May). Wallachia becomes Ottoman vassal state." -- The Ottoman Empire: 1300-1600, Halil Inalcik, page 119. No mention of who wins the battle
• "1395: Bayezid's expedition into Hungary and Wallachia; Battle of Argesh (17 May). Wallachia becomes Ottoman vassal state. ", --Historical Dictionary of the Ottoman Empire, Selcuk Aksin Somel, page xix. Same as Inalcik source
• "May 17 Bayezid I brings Wallachia under Ottoman suzerainty as a vassal state following the Battle of Argesh", --Colonialism: An International Social, Cultural, and Political Encyclopedia, ed.Melvin E. Page, page 759.
• "...le versa pour la première fois après la dramatique bataille d'Argeş ou de Rovine (10 octobre 1394)..", -- LE TRIBUT PAYÉ PAR LES PRINCIPAUTÉS ROUMAINES À LA PORTE JOSQU'AU DÉBUT DU XVIe SIÈCLE (*), Mihail P. GUBOGLU, page 79. Calls the battle as Arges or Rovine.
• "..il expose que le prince Mircea , vaincu lors de la bataille de l'Argeş, «s'est renduet a été mené à Brousse;" --Mihail P. GUBOGLU, page 81. Mircea is captured(ie. losses the battle)

The links you provided for the sources in Turkish don't mention Argesh, but call the battle between Bayezid and Mircea(Rovine). The French source, "Historiographic Views on the so-called Battle of “Rovine” and its Consequences of Mircea the Elder’s Rule" page 80, would indicate there were 2 battles according to modern historiography. Cârciumaru, however, doesn't explicitly call the battle Arges(h), but refers to the battle's location as "situated in the vicinity of Curtea de Argeş"(page 79), "somewhere on the road to the Argeş river"(page 79), "continuation of the Turkish advance along the Argeş river and the battle of 17th May 1395"(page 79).

In my opinion, move the Battle of Karanovasa to Battle of Arges. In both articles we write a paragraph, supported by Cârciumaru, that the battle of Rovine has two different dates 10th October 1394 and 17th May 1395. That modern historiography(per Cârciumaru) indicates there were 2 battles. I also, didn't find any mention for the battle of Arges to be a Wallachian victory. Did I miss anything you posted? --Kansas Bear (talk) 15:27, 26 July 2025 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear.

No, you didn't miss anything I said, but the Battle of Karanovasa page says the Wallachian victory. After moving the article to Argesh, should I delete the uncited parts or leave it untouched? Do you have any suggestions for the conclusion of the battle? Kartal1071 (talk) 19:12, 26 July 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, I just noticed it while checking to see if I'd missed something. This source also says "Wallachian victory." [16] I'm so sorry, I missed it when I first checked. I'm so, so sorry.Kartal1071 (talk) 20:31, 26 July 2025 (UTC)

That is the French source that states a Wallachian victory at Rovine but the date is 10th October 1394. I think that would be enough for us to change the result for the "Battle of Arges" article to "disputed". The current Romanian source in the Karanovasa article also mentions two battles and Mircea winning the first one.

If there are no references for the information in the "Battle of Karanovasa", I'd delete the information. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:22, 26 July 2025 (UTC)

Thank you @Kansas Bear I'll make the changes as soon as I can. I'll let you know when I'm finished. Kartal1071 (talk) 23:05, 26 July 2025 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear, I made the changes, can you check? Kartal1071 (talk) 11:04, 27 July 2025 (UTC)

Looks good. --Kansas Bear (talk) 12:34, 27 July 2025 (UTC)

Thank you @Kansas Bear. Kartal1071 (talk) 13:15, 27 July 2025 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear thank you for editing the source. Kartal1071 (talk) 19:09, 27 July 2025 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue 231, July 2025

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