User talk:Jweiss11

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Disambiguation link notification for January 7

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NPP Awards for 2024

		The New Page Reviewer's NPP Barnstar Award
		This award is given in recognition to Jweiss11 for conducting 261 article reviews in 2024. Thank you so much for all your excellent work. Keep it up! Hey man im josh (talk) 18:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

JUCO standings

Hey there, Jweiss11. I hope you're well. I was doing some research and came across different versions of the 1961 South Central Conference (California) football standings, which has Southwestern's record as 2–7–1 (2–2–1 SCC). Their conference record is confirmed here, but their overall record is reported as 2–6–1 here and here, and it looks like the rest of the league played nine games each as well, according to the LA Times standings. Do you think there could be a missing game? JTtheOG (talk) 21:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

JTtheOG, how's it going? Looks like that was probably just a typo/error by me. I've changed Southwestern's overall record to 2–6–1. Thanks for catching that! Jweiss11 (talk) 21:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

No, thank you for all the work you've done on JUCO football. It's been really helpful for the article I'm working on at the moment which, speaking of, I was hoping you could help me iron out some of the details for. Some of the conference stuff can get tricky at this level, as you're surely well aware of. JTtheOG (talk) 07:18, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Preseason scrimmage

Hey there. Hope you don't mind a quick question. In a team's schedule, how would you present a preseason scrimmage where "both teams managed just one touchdown apiece"? Would you report that as a a scoreless tie or with no result at all? Maybe a hatnote with the quote? Lmk what you think. JTtheOG (talk) 08:07, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Nice work on the Southwester Apaches/Jaguars stuff. I think what you did with the scrimmage at 1982 Southwestern Apaches football team is fine. You could note the 0–0 score in the table. Jweiss11 (talk) 20:28, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. Your edits and feedback, or even just a second set of eyes, will always be much appreciated. JTtheOG (talk) 21:16, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

The John Gagliardi Memorial Award

	The John Gagliardi Memorial Award
	I, WikiOriginal-9, hereby present the John Gagliardi Memorial Award to undisputably the greatest college football coaching editor of all time, Jonathan M. Weiss, alias Jweiss11. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 21:35, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

Haha. Very creative. Thanks! Jweiss11 (talk) 21:36, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

1918 Alabama Crimson Tide football team

Did you see where the above article's AfD resulted in a merge close but nothing was actually merged? Maybe someone could add it to the 1919 article like you said in the AfD? Just FYI if you want to pursue. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 17:09, 30 January 2025 (UTC)

I went ahead and merged it to 1919. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 17:40, 30 January 2025 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Spokane University Crusaders football coaches

A tag has been placed on Category:Spokane University Crusaders football coaches indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. ✗plicit 05:20, 1 February 2025 (UTC)

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Coaching record table

Hey Jweiss, I hope you're doing well. How would one apply all those pretty colors to a coaching record table? JTtheOG (talk) 23:49, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

See my edit just now at Ed Carberry. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:17, 8 February 2025 (UTC)

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Factual error, Bucky Freeman football coaching record

Jweiss11: I am the third son of Ben Light, who was born as Benard L. Pismanoff in Brooklyn in 1911, and attended Ithaca College from 1932 to 1936. There are ample reliable sources which establish, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Bucky Freeman contracted typhoid fever in early September, 1935. The illness kept him away from Ithaca for the entire semester. He recuperated at the home of his mother-in-law in Fort Edward, NY. In his place, and at his suggestion, Bucky Freeman was replaced as coach of the 1935 varsity football team by Benny Pismanoff, who guided the team to a 4-1-1 record, scoring 121 points and surrendering 27 points, ranking 3rd in the Northeast.

I have articles from "The Ithacan," the Ithaca College newspaper, the "Ithaca Journal," the local daily paper in Ithaca New York, the "Albany Evening News," a daily in Albany, NY, and a couple of pages from a book by Isadore "Doe" Yavits called "The Ithaca College of My Time," which all confirm these facts.

Benny Pismanoff was a student of James A. "Bucky" Freeman, and of "Doe" Yavits, at Albany High School from 1925 through the spring of 1930. He lettered in football, basketball, and baseball at Albany High for four years, and was captain of the 1928-29 basketball team coached by Yavits which won the NY State Class A basketball championship in March, 1929.

After teaching physical education and coaching football, basketball, and baseball at Vincentian Institute in Albany for two years right out of high school, Pismanoff followed Yavits and Freeman to Ithaca College where he won varsity letters for four years in football, basketball and baseball. He changed his name in June, 1937 to Ben Light. The gym in the Phys. Ed building is named the Ben Light Gymnasium in his honor.

My father deserves a Wikipedia page for his life's devotion to athletics and Ithaca College, but for now I would appreciate it if you could correct the error in the Bucky Freeman football coaching record in his Wikipedia page. I knew Bucky Freeman, and I know he would appreciate the correction as well. Let me know and I can email you PDF copies of the reliable sources.

With warmest regards,

Chuck Light CLLight (talk) 03:38, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

Chuck, thanks for the heads up on this. Yes, I see lots of coverage about your father in The Ithaca Journal ([1], [2], and [3]). Looks like Freeman and your father are credited as co-head coaches for the 1935 football season by Ithaca (see here) and your father was also head basketball coach from 1945 to 1952; see here. I will create an article! Jweiss11 (talk) 04:25, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

I hope this reaches you, because I wanted to send you an attachment providing a full history of my father's athletic, teaching, coaching, officiating, and administrative life, but I don't know how to attach things on your talk page, if that is even possible.

I hope you know how pleased I was to read the words "I will write an article!" At the same time, however, I was concerned that you pointed out the IC coaching history which lists my father and Bucky Freeman as "co-coaches." They were not co-coaches in any sense of the word. Bucky Freeman was in Ft. Edward, NY, +/- 200 miles from Ithaca, and Ben Pismanoff was in Ithaca. No cell phones, no "Zoom," cars could travel at best about 40 miles per hour. How could they be "co-coaches" if they had no means to communicate.

The fact is that Bucky Freeman was totally out of the picture in the fall of 1935, and Benny Pismanoff could only rely on what Bucky had taught him about football, in four years at Albany High and in three years at IC, and use that knowledge to assemble and build a team which performed at a mininum admirably. What I hope is that at a minimum you will correct the Freeman Wikipedia page to indicate that Freeman did not coach, or "co-coach" the 1935 football team, and that Ben Pismanoff (in June 1937 changed to Light) did. That would require an adjustment in Freeman's overall IC football record by subtracting four wins, one loss, and one tie, and crediting them to the lifetime football coaching record (one year) for Ben Pismanoff Light.

If I knew how I would attach an eight page history in Word format which sets forth my father's life as an athlete, coach, teacher, basketball official (he officiated games with many of the best -- Sam Schoenfeld, Dallas Shirley, Lou Eisenstein, John Nucatola, etc.) and college administrator. The history includes what I believe Wikipedia defines as "reliable sources," as far as I could find them.

I will copy this to a reply to your last response, and I want you to know that I truly appreciate the interest you have shown.

Chuck Light CLLight (talk) 18:07, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

Chuck, I've kicked off the article for your father at Ben Light (coach). Note there is another notable Ben Light, Ben Light (pianist), also a New Yorker who lived around the same time. As for the 1935 coaching records, I know under NCAA rules, in cases when a permanent head coach is absent or suspended, but still employed by the school, discretion is given to school regarding who is the official coach of record, the absent permanent coach, the acting/interim coach, or both. For example, Mike Krzyzewski missed a smattering of Duke basketball games due to illness in the 2000s, but was credited as the head coach of record for all those games, even though guys like Jeff Capel III were actually coaching the team during those games. However, when Krzyzewski missed most of the 1994–95 season, those games were credited to Pete Gaudet. Similarly, Jim Harbaugh was suspended for six games during the 2023 Michigan football season. The first three games he missed in September were credited to Sherrone Moore, Jay Harbaugh, Jesse Minter, Mike Hart. But second set of three games Harbaugh missed in November were credited to his record, not Moore's, even thought Moore led the team on the sidelines. Now, I'm not even sure if Ithaca was a NCAA member in 1935, or if much technical consideration is given to records from nearly 100 years ago, but Ithaca College appears to credit Light and Freeman as co-coaches for 1935. If you have an issue with that, you should contact the Ithaca College athletic department. Justin Lutes is probably the person you want to start with. At any rate, I'd love to see the documentation you have about your father. There is no way to attach that stuff here, but you can email me if you click on the "Email this user" link in the left-hand menu. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 02:08, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

Jessica?

When I Google Jweiss11, now there is an "AI overview" that says "Jweiss11 is the online handle of Jessica Weiss, a Wikipedia editor. In March 2024, she was named Editor of the Week on Wikipedia's WikiProject Editor Retention page." What the heck? That is a little disconcerting. You're not even a public figure or anything. Why would a random Pinterest page of someone else and a Wikipedia project page cause an AI overview to appear. I thought that was only for noteworthy stuff... ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 18:06, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

I dunno. First day on the internet? :) I wouldn't worry about it! Jweiss11 (talk) 01:09, 15 February 2025 (UTC)

Not worried JW, just thought it was interesting. You're the first editor I've seen with an AI overview. I've sampled some other editors and not even the ones who have Wikipedia articles like Koavf have AI overviews. I guess you are noteworthy. We all know who the real Jonathan M. Weiss is. ;)

Also, the AI bot might have noticed my comment or something because Jessica isn't in the overview anymore... lol. Now it just says Jweiss11. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 02:18, 15 February 2025 (UTC)

Dunno if I've done this before for you, but it really doesn't matter

		The Original Barnstar
		Your ongoing, continued, outstanding work on football topics is epic. Thank you so much for that. It makes life so much easier for dorks like me that fill in behind you. Keep plowing, plowhorse! —tim ///// Carrite (talk) 23:11, 15 February 2025 (UTC)

Mission Conference standings

Is there any reason you skipped over the 1993 season when making the Category:Mission Conference football standings templates? I think it's the only one missing from 1968-2001. I found the final 1993 standings here and would be happy to create the missing template in any case. Just thought to check with you first. JTtheOG (talk) 08:00, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

I suspect I skipped over it because I couldn't find a good reference. Thanks for finding that listing! I will make a template for 1993. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:14, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

You're too quick for me. Thanks as always. JTtheOG (talk) 20:27, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

Comment

You are a good writer. Jeffrey Beall (talk) 21:06, 19 February 2025 (UTC).

Thanks for the compliment! Jweiss11 (talk) 17:04, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

Independent templates with column for "conference" record

While working today on 1984 Rutgers Scarlet Knights football team, I came across Template:1984 Major eastern college football independents records which includes a completed "conference" record column. I said to myself, "Huh? How can independents have conference records?" There appears to be a run of these from 1981 through 1990, created by User:Blake675. Do you have better insight into this? Cbl62 (talk) 14:19, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I've been aware of these since around when they were created last year. This is one of a number of items I've been meaning to bring up for discussion at WT:CFB. I think I have a seen a newspaper or two present this sort of standings list with records of the major eastern independents against one another, as if it the were in a conference. But there surely was no conference there. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:51, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

Ben Light

JWeiss11: Going through stuff on my father's page, I noticed that Reference 6 is the same as Reference 3, despite their being different titles for the articles they are linked to. Looking at the Reference source code (don't ask how I learned to do that, I do not know), I noticed that the "article" number is the same. I assume that if the article number for Reference 6 is corrected then the title should link to the correct clipping.

BTW, I have no idea how to link titles to references that I add to the article (I think it has to do with "image" URL and "clip" URL), which is why my titles do not link to my clippings. Is there a way I can do it as a novice? Or do I have to wait until I can become a WP Library member and get full access to Newspapers.com, or am I saving my clippings improperly so that they are not "clip" but instead are "image" URLS?

WTF, this is hard stuff! CLLight (talk) 19:40, 22 February 2025 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't get back to you before. I was offline most of the weekend up through last night. Looks like you've figured all this out now. Jweiss11 (talk) 19:39, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

No problem. OriginalWiki-9 pointed out that I was using the wrong URL (print page rather than browser address bar), and the rest was easy-peasy. I even went back into Newspapers.com (my 7 day free trial ends tomorrow) and found the clipping you meant to use on fn. 6, and corrected that as well. The only fn. title I can't link to the source article is fn. is fn. 29, because it is from geneologybank.com and I used the print page URL for that. Some day I will try to sneak back into that site and see if I can correct that last fn.

Thanks again for all of your help!

CLLight CLLight (talk) 22:08, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

JWeiss11: In printing the finished article, whether the scale is set to 100 or 80, the word Basketball in the Head Coaching Record section becomes separated from the coaching record itself, so the coaching record prints on the following page, if that makes any sense.

I know there is a way to generate a page break following the infobox for the Football record, but I am too dumb to figure it out. It should be a simple fix, but my brain becomes discombobulated when I read the Wikipedia stuff on how to fix the problem.

When you get time, could you put a fix in so the header for the basketball record prints on the same page as the record itself?

Thanks, CLLight CLLight (talk) 18:52, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Dixie Howell.jpg

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Input

So I am working on expanding the 1923 Michigan Agricultural Aggies football team and was wondering if you had any input on how it is looking so far before I potentially sink way too much time into it.

I am trying to model it after the 1923 Alabama Crimson Tide football team as I find that article of a better quality than most from this time period.

Thank you in advance, Thetreesarespeakingtome (talk) 19:56, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

Thetreesarespeakingtome, looks good so far. Nice work. One note: I suspect that the freshman team played a team from Assumption University (Windsor, Ontario), not Assumption University (Worcester). The Canadian Assumption teams were known as the "Purple" or "Purple Warriors" during that time, and were a frequent opponent of a number of Michigan colleges before World War II, and a member of the Michigan-Ontario Collegiate Conference; see here and here. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:28, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

Thank you!

It appears you were correct, and there was MUCH more coverage than one would have anticipated for that game too, see [4] Thetreesarespeakingtome (talk) 04:11, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

• Hey trees, thanks for taking this on. The Michigan State season articles definitely have room for improvement. I did some copy editing to tighten the lead and get rid of some of the non-encyclopedic puffery in the lead. (You had also removed the points scored and allowed from the lead -- I consider this to be core information that should be included in the lead.) I've also added strong sources for each of the games -- as a general rule, I find that the most comprehensive coverage comes from the newspapers in the city where the game was played -- thus, I've used the Lansing paper for the home game, the Chicago Tribune for the Chicago game, and The Wisconsin State Journal for the Wisconsin game. One other note -- I've never found content on freshman teams to be particularly relevant. I have no strong objection to it, but I think time is best spent summarizing the efforts (including game summaries) of the varsity team. Cbl62 (talk) 06:25, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

I also believe a strong lead for a team-season article should identify who the key star or stars of the team were. Ray Kipke clearly fits that bill. As you dig deeper, you may find others who might merit a brief mention in the lead. I would also typically include any major honors, but in this case no Aggies received All-America honors, nor were they included on Eckersall's 1923 All-Western college football team (which was open to players from throughout the Midwest). Cbl62 (talk) 07:19, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

@Cbl62, thanks for the input. As I mentioned above I was using the 1923 Alabama team as a point of reference on how to structure the article's lead and body content, but I will not disagree with the way you have done it as well.

Side note, unfortunately I am not getting paid to do anything on Wikipedia so I will spend my time doing whatever, whenever, even if that includes making the team's freshmen team (although in this season it does not include any future notable players, at least not from the basic research done) first. Thetreesarespeakingtome (talk) 11:56, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

Trees - I have also been unpaid for my efforts over the past 18 years to improve college football coverage. (If only it were otherwise!) I did not intend to dictate how you should spend your volunteer time. We need more hard-working volunteers like you to carry on the effort, and I welcome your doing so in any way you find enjoyable and rewarding. Cbl62 (talk) 16:00, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

Team season names

Hey there. I was hoping you would be able to help me out with a predicament. Forgive me for getting a bit into the weeds here, but I want to clear this up before I make any more changes. Maybe @Cbl62: or another experienced editor can weigh in.

Basically, I realized that the prev_year/next_year parameters in these two articles aren't working, which is seemingly due to the article titles not conforming with our conventional naming standards for college sports team seasons. The reason I did not include the word "football" in the titles is that Mexican college sports outside of American football are virtually non-existant. Most sports prefer the youth academy system over the (very American) high school/college system and thus, college soccer/baseball/volleyball has virtually no impact on the sporting landscape. A very distant second would be the basketball league, Asociación de Básquetbol Estudiantil, which was only formed in 2013.

On the other hand, college football in Mexico is a century-old tradition with historical players like Jack O'Brien. A regular-season game last year drew 25,000 fans, outperforming pro soccer matches in the same exact stadium. I say all this to say that college athletic programs are overwhelmingly dominated by their football teams. Only one athletic program article, Aztecas UDLAP, even bothers to mention any other sport, so it seemed appropriate at the time to omit "football" from the team season titles. I can almost guarantee that no college basketball/soccer/baseball/volleyball team season will ever meet the GNG, but then again, I am eschewing our conventional naming standards, which I imagine could mess up more than some infobox parameters. I would very much appreciate to hear your thoughts on the matter. JTtheOG (talk) 09:11, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

JTtheOG, looks like you figured out how to make this work for 2023 Borregos Salvajes Monterrey season and 2024 Borregos Salvajes Monterrey season. The way Template:Infobox college sports team season is set up, if the sport field isn't entered as all, the template appends a "football" to the team name at the top of the infobox. But looks like you found a "hack" by entered the field with no value. Didn't realize that would work until investigating this just now. We could make some changes to the template to make this all less hackish. In most cases, the sport field is explicitly set to "football" for American college football articles anyway. I've always make a practice to do that when creating or cleaning up and standardizing such articles. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:03, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. It was actually the great Thetreesarespeakingtome who fixed the infoboxes. So I presume you have no objection to the omission of "football" from the article titles? JTtheOG (talk) 20:40, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

In my opinion I would add 'football' even if no other sport is notable since those sports do still exist, just to conform to traditional naming standards. Thetreesarespeakingtome (talk) 22:46, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

 Done JTtheOG (talk) 02:02, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

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Happy First Edit Day!

Hey, Jweiss11. Just stopping by to wish you a Happy Wiki-Birthday from the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! Have a great day! DaniloDaysOfOurLives (talk) 05:27, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

1920-26 Oklahoma conference edits

Hi, I noticed your edits to conference membership on the Oklahoma team articles between 1920 through 1926. Oklahoma has never been a formal member of the Missouri Valley Conference, the correct conference for those years is the Missouri Valley Intercollegiate Athletic Association. The MVIAA split in 1928, with the six larger schools, continuing to use the MVIAA name in what would eventually become the Big Eight. While the smaller schools would form what is now the MVC. Both conferences however clam the same history starting in 1907 which leads to the confusion. Jeffrey R. Clark • talk • contribs 22:14, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Jeffrey R. Clark, thanks for the message. I'm aware of the convoluted history of the MVC and the Big Eight. Those edits I made earlier to the Oklahoma articles, 1920 through 1927, were to bring them in the line with articles for the other conference members, like 1927 Nebraska Cornhuskers football team, and the relevant standings templates and conference categories. That common name for whatever conference this was in the early to mid 1920s appears to be "Missouri Valley Conference" not "Missouri Valley Intercollegiate Athletic Association"; see Template:1923 Missouri Valley Conference football standings. Searching for "Missouri Valley Intercollegiate Athletic Association" for those years (1920 to 1927) produces only 9 hits on Newspapers.com while there are over 50,000 hits for "Missouri Valley Conference". The article for Missouri Valley Intercollegiate Athletic Association, first expanded from a disambiguation page by BD2412 in 2015, seems like it's a fork of Missouri Valley Conference or both that article and Big Eight Conference. I think we should have two articles here, not three. The history section of the MVC article states the following (without sources):

The smaller MVIAA schools (Drake, Grinnell and Washington University in St. Louis), plus Oklahoma A&M (now Oklahoma State University, which joined the Big Eight in 1957), were joined by Creighton to form the MVC, which retained the old MVIAA's administrative staff. To this day, it has never been definitively established which conference was the original and which was the spinoff, though the Big Eight would go on to become the more prestigious of the two. During the Big Eight's run, both conferences claimed 1907 as their founding date, and the same history through 1927.

We need to more research here to improve the sourcing the add clarity. PK-WIKI, you recently did some great work on Northwest Conference (1908–1925). Perhaps you can help here as well. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:30, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Note: I have no further insight here. It does look like the Missouri Valley Intercollegiate Athletic Association is pretty much the same thing as the Missouri Valley Conference. BD2412 T 23:40, 17 March 2025 (UTC)

Yes, it's such a mess, and I've been trying to make heads or tails of it for years. The problem at hand is the fact that both the MVC and what would become Big Eight both clam the 1907 founding date and history up to the 1928 split. The main reason why I kept it listed as MVIAA is because that's what the six bigger schools formally called the conference till 1947 when Colorado joined, after which it formally became the Big Seven. As for newspapers, I can totally see them shorting the name to just the Missouri Valley Conference, but that name being formally used didn't start till 1928 by the smaller schools. As for having three conference pages, there are a number of options that could be used going forward.--Jeffrey R. Clark • talk • contribs 00:12, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

Bob Forbes

Hi J.W. — I put up a photo today for Robert Forbes (American football) but I notice his record isn't listed for West Point for 1907. I spun to the 1907 Army Cadets football team page and see that he isn't listed as the head coach at all... Hmmm. I'm not sure if solving such mysteries is your forte, but I bring it to your attention. I did find his birth and death dates, so I am tickled about that. Best regards, —tim ///// Carrite (talk) 01:14, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

Seem that Henry Smither was the head coach of the 1907 Army team and Forbes as an assistant; see https://www.newspapers.com/article/el-paso-herald/168240634/. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:59, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

David L. Holmes

I know you do good work on coaching articles. If you are interested, David L. Holmes needs one. Here are some sources: obit, 1959, 1937. Cbl62 (talk) 03:39, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

I created the article at David L. Holmes (coach). There was already an article for his son, David L. Holmes. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:23, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

Good work. Thanks. Cbl62 (talk) 23:22, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

List of Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association football standings

Do you know of a source for MIAA standings in the 1890s? Any interest in creating templates? Only 1894 currently exists. I've created Kalamazoo football, 1892–1899, Olivet football, 1884–1899, Albion football, 1884–1899, Hilsdale Dales football, 1891–1899, and Michigan State Normal Normalites football, 1891–1899, and it would be nice to have the standings templates to add to these. Cbl62 (talk) 23:21, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

There is fuller complement of MIAA football standings here: Category:Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association football standings templates. The MIAA record book only has standings going back to 1958. Back in 2020 and 2021, I fleshed out the standings going back to 1920 plus a few years in the 1910s based on Newspapers.com. But the coverage started to peter out there. Jweiss11 (talk) 05:32, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

I just created Template:1898 Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association football standings. I haven't found any explicit standings or listing of all the members, but I did find a couple article that article confirming the Kalamazoo won the MIAA title by beating Michigan Agricultural on November 24. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:07, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, I've found sourcing, too, showing the Kzoo was the MIAA champion in 1897, 1898, and 1899, but the completeness of the records for other teams is really uncertain. I've noted that the media guide-type sources for MIAA teams in the 1890s are quite incomplete and often inaccurate. So there's an accuracy issue with relying on them to fill out the records. I suppose these can be adjusted as we get better/more complete information. Thanks for at least giving it a shot on 1898. Cbl62 (talk) 16:47, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

A talk page workspace like the one we created at Talk:Northwest Conference (1908–1925)#Sources for football champions and conference standings was very useful for collaborating on compiling sources and seeing the redlinked standing templates that had not yet been created. PK-WIKI (talk) 20:06, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

Massive edit conflict

I just lost 20 minutes worth of work on Albion Methodists football, 1900–1909 due to an edit conflict. Can you hold off on editing when I put a construction tag on a newly-created article. Cbl62 (talk) 15:50, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

• I do appreciate your help, but if you could just hold off while I have it tagged, I'd appreciate. I've been trying to be diligent in removing the tag when I'm done. Cbl62 (talk) 15:53, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

Sorry about that. A couple other editors has waded in before I started cleaning things up about an hour ago. Head ups that the coaching tenures found on Alma's website here are off by a year in many places. I've cleaned this up on the coaching bio articles for Walter S. Kennedy, W. D. Chadwick, Thomas Andrew Gill, and Otto Carpell. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:08, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

I'm taking a break for now and have removed the tag if you want to wade in further. I think you meant to say Albion's website rather than Alma's. Either way, your help is appeciated. Cbl62 (talk) 17:20, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I meant Albion. I get all these little Michigan liberal arts schools that start with A (Alma, Albion, Adrian) mixed up! Jweiss11 (talk) 17:36, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

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College Football Data Warehouse

I don't object to your removing CFDW cites when there is another source to support the article information. However, you should not remove it where there is no other source, as you did here. Removing CFDW when there is no other source leaves us with wholly unsourced content. Cbl62 (talk) 18:30, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

• To clarify, it's fine to remove CFDW as you did here because there is another source for the information in the article (in this case Sports Reference). My objection is only to removing CFDW where the removal leaves us with unsourced content. Cbl62 (talk) 18:36, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

Yes, my goal is to replace all those CFDW refs with SR and media guide refs. Many of the media guides refs on these season articles are also several years old and often lead to a dead link. The media guides will also generally get more accurate over time as errors are uncovered and corrected. Many of the media guides refs could use updating too. I just added updated 2024 media guides refs to the Utah articles up through 1920. I had done some work a few months back on the Utah articles from 1892 to 1900, and those were already updated. Note: I've been keeping a log all the media guide errors I find here: Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Media guide errors. Jweiss11 (talk) 18:51, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

A worthwhile effort. My only issue is that we not leave content unsourced. Once a new source is added to replace CFDW, as you have now done with the 1917 Utah article, I have no objection. Cbl62 (talk) 19:20, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

Kalamazoo Baptists football redirect categories

The categories I added to the redirects for 1918 Kalamazoo football team and 1919 Kalamazoo football team were removed. For consistency, should the similar ones added by Cbl62 like 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 also be removed? 216.58.25.209 (talk) 05:31, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

• Categories are now maintained at the main redirect pages. E.g., 1916 Kalamazoo Baptists football team and 1918 Kalamazoo Baptists football team. If there are other categories that apply, you can either add them or let me know and I can do so. Cbl62 (talk) 11:20, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

  I think I understand now. You intentionally applied the category to only the main redirect page 1918 Kalamazoo Baptists football team and not 1918 Kalamazoo football team so there wouldn't be two pages for the same thing in the category. 216.58.25.209 (talk) 17:05, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

  Yes, that's correct. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:05, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

Mike Harvey

Is there anything more to find out about Mike Harvey? He had no sources before Heisman's list, and that is all I can find. Cake (talk) 21:26, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

Found more here: https://www.newspapers.com/article/birmingham-post-herald/168990879/, https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-atlanta-journal/168990510/, https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-atlanta-journal/168990387/. Jweiss11 (talk) 05:47, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. Nice find about Mercer. I wonder if we are missing some of Heisman's coaching tree. Cake (talk) 12:43, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

Any chance to find Johnny Maxwell's dates? Heisman's biased but he ranked him the best pre-1915 Southern QB. Morrison was only added when he expanded the list from 25 to 30. Cake (talk) 14:32, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

• Well done finding him. If I can bother you with one more Heisman acolyte question: What is Jock Hanvey's obituary talking about with Virginia Tech? Cake (talk) 12:32, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

"was an American football team"

Why are you en masse removing "was an American football team" from season articles leads? E.g., here. This has been standard language for several years, designed to provide context for the benefit of non-American readers who generally think of a "football team" as an association football team. Was there a discussion of this that I missed? Cbl62 (talk) 01:52, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

Including that passage is definitely your M.O., and I've certainly used it many times, but have had mixed feelings about the cost/benefit of clarification versus added clunkiness. There are lots of articles that have never had it, and it tends not to be used in recent season articles. I think I made a sweep though the Wash U and Butler articles earlier to bring consistency, as each program's run had a mix of inclusion and not. In the case of multi-year articles, I think it makes sense, perhaps, to include it in the lead of the article, but not in the intro section for each individual season. I believe it's been several years since we discussed this verbiage. May make sense to revisit it at WT:CFB. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:11, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

Recent articles are another story altogether. They are a mess. But with the historic articles, which have been my primary focus, I and other editors have been including it pretty consistently, and I think it's important so as to bring clarity for non-American readers. I supposed college football is another possibility, but that article used to be of such poor quality that I was reluctant to link there. That said, the college football article has improved in recent years, so that's another viable option. In the case of a decade article, I agree it doesn't need to be repeated 10 times and have tried to avoid that. Cbl62 (talk) 03:15, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

your view on multi-season articles

As you know, I've become more enamored of the multi-season approach as it allows us to capture the complete history of lower-division programs with less worry about whether each season has enough coverage, and it provides more context than single-season stubs. I've now started almost the entire chronological run for Michigan Tech using this approach: 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s. As I mentioned at the project talk page, I'm still not sure where to draw the line. I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Cbl62 (talk) 03:40, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I've indeed been keeping tabs on work with Michigan Tech. A few thoughts. First, we shouldn't leave the schedule tables in a raw, unformatted state. At minimum, we should have proper links to opponents and locations. We ought to also link to NCAA reports were available. Those typically contain attendance figures for seasons between the late 1950s and 1996. I've added this for Michigan Tech Huskies football, 1990–1999#1990. As for where to draw the line, do you mean how far and wide can the this decade approach be applied? In principle, I think it could be applied for just about any sub-Division I program, and junior college programs too, but there should be some substantive, independent coverage. I would generally leave all the current Division I and historically major programs as is with individual season articles, except for cases like NYU Violets football, 1873–1889, where the team was playing micro/proto-seasons with sparse independent coverage. If you're looking for spots to attack next, I would recommend focusing on non-independents of the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950, as creating decades articles there will ameliorate the lingering cfb link call crises we have at articles like 1950 college football season. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:03, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. I generally agree with your views on where to draw the line, though I believe the approach is appropriate even for some Division I programs in the era before the 1920s. See, e.g., Central Michigan Normalites football, 1896–1909, Michigan State Normal Normalites football, 1891–1899. As we build season or multi-season articles, our first priorities should be to provide core information and to demonstrate a sufficient level of coverage to justify article creation. In general, I would probably rank the priorites in creating a season article as follows:

1. Preliminary research. Do research before you begin writing. Satisfy yourself that the topic is truly notable under WP:GNG.

2. Lead and infobox. The article should have a lead section and infobox, including win-loss record (conference win-loss record), identity of head coach, conference affiliation, championships, bowl games/playoff participation, position in conference standings and national rankings, and points scored/allowed. The NCAA cumulative statistical reports have proved to be excellent sources for this material, and I agree these should be cited and mined for information. Other good sources for such data include media guides, SR/College Football, and if other sources aren't available the College Football Data Warehouse.

3. SIGCOV. Add citations to significant coverage demonstrating the notability of the season. In-depth coverage is preferred from reliable, independent sources. Unfortunately, the NCAA cumulative statistical reports are self-prepared by each team (not independent) and don't count toward GNG. Moreover, brief game blurbs may not suffice. Accordingly, and given recent effots to cut back on Wikipedia's sports coverage, my current view is that searching for and adding such coverage is a high priority at the time new articles are created.

4. Conference templates. When a team played as a member of a conference, we should add the applicable conference stndings template.

5. Basic schedule table. A sourced table displaying each of the team's games, including at minium the name of the opponent, the date of the game, and the result of the game. I have a concern that most of our articles consist of little more than a schedule chart. This is not how it should be. Schedule charts are great, but we should be putting more emphasis on expanding the narrative text of our season articles.

6. Individual highlights/records. Basic information on key players where available, e.g., individual statistical leaders, all-conference and All-America honors, team captains, team MVPs, records set, and other awards (coaching honors too). This element is neglected/overlooked in far too many of our season articles. The NCAA cumulative statistical reports are often a good starting point for such information.

7. Team highlights/records. Information about any notable team achievements not mentioned above. This might include rushing/passing yards gained/allowed, especially where it ranks among national leaders. Also any team records broken, winning streaks, etc. The NCAA statistical reports are a good starting point.

8. Photographs - Search for usable photographs to illustrate the article. IMO photographs make articles far more interesting. The saying about a "thousand words" may actually understate the value of photographs. Good sources for photos include school yearbooks and newspaper archives.

9. Opposing team links. Links within the schedule chart to each opponent-- to the corresponding Wikipedia article if one exists or a cfb link if no wiki article exists. This information is very helpful in cross-pollenating with other team articles. (I suspect you would rank this element higher, but my focus is more on substance and GNG compliance.)

10. Attendance info. Adding game attendance information to the schedule chart. The NCAA statistical reports are often but not always good sources for this data.

11. Homecoming/rivalries. Searching for information on which games were either "homecoming" or a "rivalry" game and adding such designations to the schedule chart.

12. Categories. Making sure we have added the appropriate categories.

13. Rosters. Rosters and assistant coaches.

14. Game summaries - a narrative summary of each game played.

15. Other links. Links to stadiums and cities for away games in schedule tables. This element doesn't help with the cross-pollenation effort, but on the other hand, it doesn't take much effort.

16. Dashes. Changing hyphens to dashes where appropriate.

17. Catsort. Category sorting (or "catsort"), i.e, putting categories in the "correct" order. Frankly, I've never seen any guidelines on this, and it doesn't matter to me, so I generally try to follow your lead since it seems to be important to you.

Cbl62 (talk) 19:58, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

Yes, the things you list out are all important. In my view, a minimum standard for a team season article includes a schedule chart that has a date, home/away/neutral, properly formatted and linked opponent, city, and score for each game, unless any of that information is truly unknowable given the typical tools to which we have access. A minimum standard would also include proper categorization. As for order of the categories, Wikipedia:Categorization states: "Eponymous categories should appear first. Beyond that, the order in which categories are placed on a page is not governed by any single rule (for example, it does not need to be alphabetical, although partially alphabetical ordering can sometimes be helpful). Normally the most essential, significant categories appear first." The ordering I follow for team season articles is as follows, as demonstrated well at 1997 Michigan Wolverines football team:

1. Category for relevant conference or national season
2. Category for that program's seasons
3. National champ category (if applicable)
4. Conference champ category (if applicable)
5. Bowl champ category (if applicable)
6. Playoff participant category (if applicable), as seen at 2021 North Dakota State Bison football team
7. Undefeated/winless season category (if applicable)
8. Year in sports in state category
9. Year in city category (if it exists), as seen at 2002 Boston College Eagles football team

As for including a total points scored/allowed for the season in the lead or elsewhere, I would not include that unless you've verified that all of the constituent scores producing that total are accurate. Of late, I ran into a bunch of cases with the MIAA teams, on the decade articles that you started, where the school's own records had erroneous scores, thus producing erroneous season point totals. I've been fleshing out the early Western Michigan seasons and just did some work on 1924 Western State Normal Hilltoppers football team. Western Michigan records have an incorrect decision for the Chicago YMCA game, reporting an 18–18 tie instead of an 18–3 victory. The score of the Albion game is wrong too. The incorrect decision for the 1924 Chicago YMCA game also produces an incorrect won—loss record for Earl Martineau in Western Michigan's records, and this error is repeated in the NCAA database; see https://stats.ncaa.org/people/39327. Jweiss11 (talk) 18:27, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Our "minimum standards" differ a bit, but the reality is that there is no formalized "minimum standard", and the season articles that we have each created in the last three years are better than average. (Articles created before 2022 are a different story, and I endeavor to improve those articles as time permits.)

MY BIGGEST CONCERN: Inclusion of SIGCOV from reliable, independent sources (i.e., not just stat databases, media guides, or NCAA stat reports) needs to be prioritized much more heavily, or even mandated, and I would support making it a strict prerequisite to new article creation.

MY SECOND BIGGEST CONCERN: The tendency to omit information on statistical leaders/award winners even where that information is readily available, for example, in existing articles on All-Americans and all-conference teams, or in NCAA statistical reports and, for more recent seasons, Sports Reference season summaries.

As for your concern with reportage of points scored/allowed, I continue to view that as essential information that is easily confirmed through reliable sources reporting on the totals (including NCAA statistical reports) as well as simple arithmetic in adding the points scored/allowed in each game. There may be a small percentage of seasons overall where game scores were mis-reported by media guides, but that's no more of a reason to omit point totals than it is to omit the game scores that have the same errors. The nature of Wikipedia is that we go by what reliable sources report. If it turns out that a particular reliable source has erred in reporting game scores, we fix the errors and include the additional source(s) verifying the corrected information. That's part of the iterative process that helps improve Wikipedia over time. Cbl62 (talk) 21:35, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

I agree with you on significant coverage from independent sources. Patriarca12 has continued to tirelessly fill in gaps in sourcing for existing team season articles, and I've been chipping away at this as well. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:07, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

Input

@Jweiss11, when creating season articles, what is the best/correct format for rosters and coaching staff, there is about a million+ in existence so I was wondering your opinion on the matter. Thetreesarespeakingtome (talk) 21:09, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

I would go with the templated form as seen at 2023 Michigan Wolverines football team#Roster, which employees Template:American football roster/Header, etc. We could really use a standardization effort with the rosters. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:04, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

Needed to make sure I didn't go crazy with the wrong roster template on Draft:Anna Maria Amcats football, 2009–2024. Thetreesarespeakingtome (talk) 03:08, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

WikiNYC April 11: Foundation and Friends' Free Culture Friday

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Concern regarding Draft:Leland Bulldogs football

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New pages patrol May 2025 Backlog drive

May 2025 Backlog Drive | New pages patrol
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Orphaned non-free image File:St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference logo.jpg

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1932 Stetson

@Jweiss11, How should I go about the team's 1932 season since it was only a freshmen team for that single year? Per this. Thetreesarespeakingtome (talk) 11:16, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

@Cbl62, your input is always helpful as well. Thetreesarespeakingtome (talk) 13:06, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

I have experimented a little with it at 1932 Stetson Hatters football team. If that is acceptable it's a matter of how to handle McQuillan's navbox. Thetreesarespeakingtome (talk) 13:07, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

I just fleshed out the schedule table for the 1932 Stetson team. I think the way you have the section laid out is pretty good, although the name of the team in the section lead schedule match the section's infobox. As for Herb McQuillan, did you mean the infobox? Jweiss11 (talk) 03:34, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Yes infobox and coaching table. Thetreesarespeakingtome (talk) 04:01, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

1949 Lewis Flyers football team

Unclear if the above team should be classified as part of the 1949 junior college football season or 1949 college football season. They were a two-year college but competed in a conference of four-year schools based on its promise to become a four-year school. They decided not convert and thus had to withdraw from the conference after the 1949 season. I'll leave it to you to handle this as you see fit. Cbl62 (talk) 03:13, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

I think it makes sense to keep Lewis as a college team for 1949 (and 1948 and 1950 through 1952, at least), given that they played in conferences otherwise made up of four-year schools in those seasons. There are some other instances where JC teams played in mostly four-year college conference, e.g. Template:1950 North Dakota Intercollegiate Conference football standings. Things also get messy with the California Coast Conference of the 1920s. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:38, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Your call. Cbl62 (talk) 15:55, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

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Gonzaga season merge

I'm inclined to instead create an article Gonzaga football, 1892–1906 due to notability/verifiability/error concerns on those early Gonzaga Bulldogs football seasons.

Then Gonzaga football, 1907–1919 could cover the pre-Gus Dorais years. These seasons are perhaps independently notable but are currently mostly redlinks.

If you agree, is that big season merge something you could boldly do when you have time? You seem to have the experience and tooling for tasks like that. Thanks PK-WIKI (talk) 02:13, 10 May 2025 (UTC)

I've added that article here: Draft:Gonzaga football, 1892–1898. Any research help on the missing games/seasons appreciated. I'm very curious about the "Five Times Champions" sign in one banner that doesn't exactly match with the known games/championships. And how involved Henry Luhn actually was with the team. PK-WIKI (talk) 15:56, 11 May 2025 (UTC)

Coloring question

Hi, JW! With respect to the universal schedule tables for college football teams, how does one decolor a line for an exhibition game? In particular, I would like to make the first two lines of the 1914 Oregon Agricultural Aggies football schedule white, not green, since games against alumni all-stars and the OAC freshman team are true exhibitions, not competitive intercollegiate football results. If you'd be so kind to make the change, I will see how you did it and that will answer my question. Ta. —tim //// Carrite (talk) 17:13, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

Carrite, for exhibitions games, i.e. games that are not included in a team's official season and all-time records, my practice been to put a parenetical "exhibition" after the score with normal w, l, or t in the w/l field, which leaves the row colored like a normal game. If you wanted to remove the color, you could hack the template by putting a nowiki tag around the w/l/t, but I don't think that's a good practice. If we really want to color exhibition games differently from official games that count in a team's record, we should build some coding to service that into Template:CFB schedule. This could not be to difficult. As for this specific case of the 1914 OAC team, Oregon State (see the references I added below the schedule table on the article) and the NCAA (see here) include those first two games in the season's overall record, and I believe the season record of 7–0–2 contributes to Oregon State's all-time record as reported in their media guides, e.g. on page 7 here. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:53, 15 May 2025 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Mid-States Football Association logo.jpg

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Your draft article, Draft:Leland Bulldogs football

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year in cites

I noticed that you removed the publication year from a source here. It is important that we have publication dates or years for sources when available. I don't know if your objection was simply to having the year in a parenthetical. In any event, I re-inserted it as a separate parameter "year=1964". The year parameter is probably best, but please don't simply eliminate publication years. If you want to move from parenthetical to "year" parameter, that's fine. Cbl62 (talk) 15:45, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

Cbl, the document in question here is simply titled "Brief Summary Of Cumulative Football Statistics". The standard format that I and Patriarca12 have used on hundreds of articles when citing these reports has been just to add a parenthetical disambiguator that indicates the subject team of the NCAA report being cited. This is particularly helpful in cases like 1964 Maine Black Bears football team where Maine's own report is cited as well as the reports for several of the Maine's opponents. I've yet to find a case, and find it hard imagine a likely scenario, where an editor here would want to cite one of theses reports for a year that is different from the subject of the Wikipedia article, which makes it seem unnecessary to explicitly state the year in the parenthetical disambiguator of the title field of the citation. As for adding a publication year, do you actually know when these reports were published? I believe they were filled out by someone in a given school's athletic department and then submitted to the NCAA. I suspect they probably weren't published at least until the following spring. Or maybe they were never published until the NCAA went online decades later? Jweiss11 (talk) 16:22, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

These are reports recounting the performance of a particular team in a particular year. We started including the team name in a parenthetical last summer. That was because you had been using one team's reports in the opponent's season article, and the parenthetical helped clarify the nature of the report. That was an improvement in our citation of these reports. I subsequentley concluded that adding the year was also helpful. Including the year of a source is always helpful. I'm puzzled that you're reverting such a common-sense improvement to the citations on these reports. Don't be stubborn. I give you credit for uncovering these reports, which are extremely helpful in building out season articles, at least in the 1950s and 1960s. As I've said to you before, I think that these NCAA reports are one of the best innovations we've uncovered for season articles from the 1950s and 1960s. I am happy to include the year clarification either in the same parenthetical with the team name or using the "year=19xx" parameter, but this is valid and useful information for any source, and I ask that you not remove it. Thanks. Cbl62 (talk) 18:06, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

I actually think the parenthetical alongside the team name is the better place for the year, but I will defer to you if you prefer it in the "year=19xx" parameter. Cbl62 (talk) 18:12, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

You are still removing the year from NCAA reports. See this edit today. Please stop. Cbl62 (talk) 04:04, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

If you're going to put the year in, which I maintain is unnecessary because of the augment I made above, it makes more sense to put the year before the team name, as that's how the relevant articles are titled, year before team name. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:12, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by "augment", but year before team is ok with me. Cbl62 (talk) 04:28, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

The argument I was referring to is what I stated above, "I've yet to find a case, and find it hard imagine a likely scenario, where an editor here would want to cite one of theses reports for a year that is different from the subject of the Wikipedia article, which makes it seem unnecessary to explicitly state the year in the parenthetical disambiguator of the title field of the citation." Note that reports from 1970 onward explicitly state the year in their title. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:30, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

It's not hard at all to find circumstances where the year disambiguation is useful (even critical): Decade and other multiseason articles come to mind off the top of my head. E.g., Michigan Tech Huskies football, 1960–1969. There are also cases, as season articles are more fully developed, where comparisons are made between statistical accomplishments in one season and prior or subsequent seasons (and where citations are needed to establish such facts). More fundamentally, the year and the team name are simply core elements of a citation for a team's statistical breakdown in a particular year. A citation that simply identifies the name of a generic form ("Brief Summary Of Cumulative Football Statistics") without the parenthetical information provides an inadequate description for the reader. Fortunately the change in format starting in 1970 provides the needed information and thus solves the problem for years thereafter.

The standardization project is now well underway, as I'm sure you've noticed. One of the surprises was that more than 50% of the citations don't include any parenthetical (not even the team name), so I believe the benefits are worth the massive effort. Cbl62 (talk) 21:24, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

That's a good point about the multi-year articles. When comparing the statistical accomplishments between seasons, you probably want to find a source that explicitly makes such a comparison, rather than just having two sources, one for each year, and making your own (synthy) comparison. Not sure what percentage of these citations already had a parenthetical team name. I've been chipping away at adding these over the last couple years, and much of late. At any rate, I have noticed your standardization efforts. Thanks for all that work. Jweiss11 (talk) 21:42, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

Don't have an exact percentage, but best estimate is that it's slightly over 50% that I've encountered that lacked any parenthetical. We should have that number much lower in a couple days. Cbl62 (talk) 22:20, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

Columbus YMCA basketball

You made some edits to Frank Bridges. Any help appreciated on the great Columbus YMCA basketball teams such as in 1910. Cake (talk) 10:35, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

Bypassing redirects

Re this edit with summary "bypass redirect", I'm trying to understand when it's a good idea to do such things, and when it's not. Most of the guidance around piped links and redirects does not apply to piped redirects, but some editors have given me flak about such things, even when the redirect being bypassed is a miscapitalization, or a "non-preferred" capitalization, which I often replace to reduce the maintenance list at Wikipedia:Database reports/Linked miscapitalizations. You have any insights on what the guidelines say or don't say about this? Dicklyon (talk) 04:45, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

Dicklyon, in the example you gave, "1950 Oregon Webfoots football team" was recently renamed to 1950 Oregon Ducks football team, as an editor determined that "Ducks" is the primary name for the subject. I don't see any reason why other Wikipedia articles should link to what is now a redirect, and the previous or secondary name for the article's subject. As for examples when you should leave a redirect rather than bypassing it, the infobox of John Harmon (coach) comes to mind. Here there are links to the redirects Missouri Wesleyan Owls football and Evansville Purple Aces football. These redirects should be left as is, or not bypassed, because these are subjects than can and likely will eventually be broken out into standalone articles, and they also serve to provide consistency and parallelism in that infobox. Can you give me specific examples of when you've gotten flak for bypassing redirects? Jweiss11 (talk) 12:49, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

Warren Williamson

Longtime wrestling coach, WWII veteran, MVP of the undefeated 1950 South Dakota State Jackrabbits football team, and South Dakota Athletic Hall of Fame inductee. See [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10]. Any interest in preparing a coaching article on him which we could submit as a double DYK with the team article I've been expanding? Cbl62 (talk) 18:04, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

Further issues regarding NCAA report citation format

In going through the effort at standardizing citation format for the NCAA’s "Brief Summary of Cumulative Football Statistics" report, I noticed a couple of related and recurring citation issues that should be discussed:

Example A: 1969 Miami Redskins football team - citation 8 to "1969-70 Miami (OH) RedHawks; Schedule/Results" is problematic because it takes “1969-70” not from the title of the page, but rather from a dropdown menu used to flexibly navigate between different sports, some of which (like football) occur in the fall (limited to the first year), others in the winter (crossing over between the two parts of an academic year), and others in the spring (limited to the second year). By including data from the dropdown menu, we are not accurately reflecting the title of the document as set forth by the NCAA. More importantly (and controversially), it creates an inaccurate appearance/inference that the NCAA was describing football seasons in the 1960s as spanning two years when it was doing nothing of the sort. There has been a controversy in the past as to whether football team season articles should be renamed (e.g., 2023-24 Michigan Wolverines football team), but the consensus except in extraordinary cases has remained to use the fall year as our marker in naming football season articles. Both for accuracy reasons, and to avoid stirring up further controversies, tne dropdown menu should not be part of our citation format, and citations of this type should IMO read "Miami (OH) RedHawks Schedule/Results (1969)".

Example B: 1969 Southern Jaguars football team - citation 10 to "Final 1969 Cumulative Football Statistics Report (Southern)". The source document is not so titled. Consistent with how we have resolved to cite the "Brief Summary" reports, citations of this type should IMO read "Cumulative Football Statistics Report (1969 Southern)".

Thoughts? I am also pinging @Patriarca12: should he wish to weigh in. Cbl62 (talk) 07:21, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

Clb, "Example B" is a simpler issue. Patriarca12 just made a small typo or deviation from the standard formatting, which I have just corrected. Note that in the case of 1969 Southern Jaguars football team, we are citing the embedded scanned PDF document that originated in 1969. The "Cumulative Football Statistics" reports are available for teams that were non-major / College Division / Division II or III from about 1948 through 1996. Generally, the titles of these documents are "Brief Summary of Cumulative Football Statistics" from 1948-ish through 1966, "Cumulative Football Statistics Report" from 1967 to 1969, "Final [YYYY] Cumulative Football Statistics Report" from 1971 to 1983, and "Final [YYYY] Division [II/III] Cumulative Football Statistics Report" from 1984 to 1996.

Regarding "Example A", there are entirely different set of documents available for major / University Division / Division I teams from 1953 to 1973 and 1982, e.g. https://stats.ncaa.org/teams/130225. Here there are a series of embedded documents for each game of the season, which can be accessed by clicking on the scores of the games listed under "Schedule/Results", e.g. https://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/statsPDFArchive/MFB1/1968/414.00_V_812.00_19680914_28_7.pdf. But here I'm not citing the individual PDFs, but rather the modern NCAA webpage itself, and tried to be faithful to the actual naming on that page. Jweiss11 (talk) 12:40, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

But on "Example A", you're not simply being "faithful to the actual naming on that page." That's my point. The page has two drop-down bars, one for the academic year to be retrieved (e.g., 1968-69, 1967-68, or any other year) and the other for the sport to be retrieved (e.g. baseball, basketball, etc.). Your citation format includes the first drop-down bar (1968-69), but excludes the second ("Football") -- so it is choosing rather than simply reciting exactly what is on the page. It also selectively excludes the win-loss record ("7-3") which appears next to the team name, a decision with which I agree BTW. Again, the correct citation format would be to exclude both drop down bars -- drop-down bars are simply navigational devices to move between pages; they are in no way part of the "actual naming of the page".

The real title of the page in question is "Schedule/Results". If we want to be completely faithful to the page title, our citation could be "Schedule/Results (1969 Miami (OH))". Or we could, as you've done, include the team name header as part of our citation, e.g., "Miami (OH) RedHawks; Schedule Results (1969)". But what we absolutely should not do IMO is to selectively choose to include one of two navigational drop-down bars and treat it as though it is part of the page title -- particularly where that drop-down bar (for reasons having to do with other sports covered by the NCAA database) is fundamentally inconsistent with our long-standing practice/consensus of using the fall season (i.e., 1969 as opposed to 1969-70) in describing football team seasons. I know that it will require a lot of work to implement this fix, but I'm willing to help with that. My main concern is that we should avoid adding ambiguity/controversy by the widespread use of a multi-year format in describing football seasons.

The use of these NCAA pages will only increase with time as they are added to more articles. The time to fix citation issues is now -- before the problem gets worse, and the effort required to fix the problem gets even bigger. Cbl62 (talk) 14:56, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

Technically the title of the page is simply "NCAA Statistics". The "Schedule/Results" is just a prominent heading within the page, but it seems relevant to include here. There may be a similar issue with NCAA citations I've begun to add in the last year or so for head coaching record tables, as seen at Sherrone Moore#Head coaching record. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:03, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

"NCAA Statistics" is the name of the entire site (statistics.ncaa.org) rather than the particular page. We could better use NCAA Statistics in the "work" parameter of the citation, rather than as the page title.) My motivation is to avoid reinitiating controversy with the multi-year naming system (1969 vs. 1969-70). If we can fix that issue, I am happy to defer to you whether we use:

(1) "Schedule/Results (1969 Miami (OH))" -- my preference

(2) "Miami (OH) RedHawks; Schedule Results (1969)" -- also fine

(3) "NCAA Statistics (1969 Miami (OH))" -- my least favored

I'll be away from the computer this afternoon (visiting Bogotá's historic center with out-of-town guests), but if you want to choose one of these, I'm willing to start implementing tonight or tomorrow. Cbl62 (talk) 16:58, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

When I said "Technically the title of the page is simply 'NCAA Statistics' above, I meant that if you look at the source code of the web page (e.g. https://stats.ncaa.org/teams/130225), line 15 defines the title of the page as "NCAA Statistics". Of the three options you laid out above, the first is also my preference. Or perhaps "NCAA Statistics; Schedule/Results (1969 Miami (OH))"? Enjoy the historic center! You're living in Bogota now? Jweiss11 (talk) 19:14, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

Technically not living here since that's not allowed but my wife and I have a 16-month old baby daughter (my first) who is irresistibly precious and fun, so I spend as much time down here as I can. Since you and I both prefer option 1, I'll start rolling that out a little later tonight. Adding "work=NCAA Statistics" as a separate parameter would probably be a good idea, too, though I'm not sure how much longer it will take to add that parameter. Ping me if you disagree with the roll out. Cbl62 (talk) 23:10, 30 May 2025 (UTC)

I've done about 60 or 70 of them. Let me know if you have any concerns. Cbl62 (talk) 01:42, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for getting that started. As you're making runs through various program, don't forget 1982. These "Schedule/Results" are generally available for 1953 to 1973 and also 1982, if a team was major / University Division / Division I in any given year. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:51, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

There's also substantive data starting in 1997 (e.g. 1997 Michigan). And gets more detailed at it gets more recent, e.g. 2023 Michigan). Jweiss11 (talk) 01:58, 31 May 2025 (UTC)