This is an archive of past discussions with User:3family6. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Hello, I noticed you have made several edits regarding grunge and its relationship to hardcore and heavy metal. As someone who was done much research for the genre articles devoted to punk, metal, and grunge and alternative rock, I feel I need to clarify that relationship for you. Yes, grunge is influenced by punk and metal, that is not disputed. But you must know that grunge is formally classified as an alternative rock genre. There are several book-length sources that elaborate on this relationship--the overarching thread is that grunge is a separate from from (and in many ways, opposed to) metal. It's intrinsically linked with alternative rock, to the extent that the popularization of grunge popularized alt-rock as a whole. Grunge and alt-rock evolved from hardcore and are considered separate as well from that genre. If you want me to further explain these relationships I can, but the short version is that while metal and hardcore influenced grunge, grunge is ultimately considered a form of alternative rock. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:34, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Hi Wesley. I pretty much agree with you that grunge is primarily an alt-rock style, but I've seen a lot of sources calling it a punk-metal fusion. From the little pieces here and there that I've read, the basic style merged punk, especially hardcore, and metal, with some bands also playing alt metal, experimental metal, alt rock, and/or indie rock. In my personal opinion, I think the reason that of the different styles it emerged out, the reason alt-rock became the one it is classified as is because Nirvana was more on the alt-rock side than the punk-metal side. But getting back to sourced material, a quick G-books search of "grunge 'metal fusion'" easily brings up a lot of reliable sources demonstrating the connection, while a search for "grunge punk" brings up sources both describing how grunge is a punk fusion and how grunge and punk ultimately diffused as different styles.--¿3family6contribs12:08, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
A punk-metal fusion doesn't necessarily mean it's a subgenre of either punk or metal. For example, nu metal incorporates hip-hop, but it certainly isn't a rap subgenre. I have a couple of sources that explain the difference in greater detail. for example. Ian Christie's metal history Sound of the Beast explains grunge's origins in metal, but makes sure to explain they are different, and that grunge is an alt-rock subgenre. This Ain't No Summer of Love is all about the relationship between punk and metal, but that also explains that when push comes to shove, grunge is an alt-rock subgenre. Michael Azerrad's our band Could Be Your Life explains over the course of several chapters how alternative rock (and in the Mudhoney chapter, grunge specifically) evolved from hardcore. Allmusic places grunge firmly in the alternative rock category. So it is not impossible for grunge to be a metal-punk combo and yet exclusively an alt-rock subgenre. Does that clarify the relationships between the forms for you? WesleyDodds (talk) 12:35, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Actually, the hip hop music and rap metal articles both have nu metal listed as a fusion genre. If the style is a punk-metal fusion, it is a punk-metal fusion. It may have turned into an alternative rock style, but it still is, or was, also a punk-metal fusion. Sources: The New York Times Guide to Essential Knowledge distinctly calls the style a punk and metal hybrid on page 177, and later on page 218 calls it a punk spinoff. Encyclopedia of Contemporary American Cultureon page 508 says that the sound is "roughly" punk-metal fusion, with Nirvana at the pop-punk end, Pearl Jam in the middle with with a hard rock style, and Soundgarden at the metal-punk end. This sources helps explain that the individual bands of the style varied greatly, which would be why some sources conflict with others. Music USA: The Rough Guide describes SST Records' output as sometimes hinting at the "punk/metal fusion that would characterize grunge..." on page 401. Grunge: Music and Memory says on page 71 that the most often made comparisons to grunge are punk and/or heavy metal. On page 51 of Guitar Gods: The 25 Players Who Made Rock History, the author states that classic grunge from the first wave of bands fused hardcore punk with heavy metal. Guitar World Presents Nirvana and the Grunge Revolution on page 4 states that there is debate over whether grunge was derived from metal or punk, and clarifies it by saying that it fuses both.
Despite what those articles list in their infobox, that's not how genres work. Rock is derived from R&B, but it is not an R&B genre. Hip-hop is built off funk, but it is not a funk genre. Heavy metal is borne of blues rock but it's not a blues rock genre. That grunge fuses punk and metal is true to an extent. "Fusion" does not automatically equal "subgenre", however. That's the distinction you are missing. As I said, there are sources specifically devoted to the genres in question. Those sources you offered are due to their restrictions describing grunge in a very general way. Of the sources you listed, only two are specialist sources. In the case of the Guitar World source, that same article is reprinted in the Guitar World Presents Alternative Rock collection I have on my shelf. The sources I mentioned that explain in greater detail how grunge was borne of those two genre, but also how it is more separate. You need to explore the full range of sources on alt-rock, metal, punk, and rock in general to get the full picture. In many ways, grunge is considered the definitive style of alt-rock, in certain ways opposed to what metal and punk are. I mean, I can explain this in extreme detail if you really want, but trust me, I've had to do a lot of research on grunge, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, and related articles for numerous projects on Wikipedia over the years, and I can assure you grunge is not widely considered either a punk subgenre or a metal one. A derivative, yes. A subgenre, no. WesleyDodds (talk) 13:40, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Mayday (Lecrae song), you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Digital download (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.
I have issues with your nomination, namely a lack of size and inaccurate hook, and would need those addressed before the hook is passed.. I have also sent messages to the users you listed as being contributors. ToaNidhiki0500:05, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
"The Vandals were an East Germanic tribe who in 429 under king Genseric entered Africa and by 439 established a kingdom which included the Roman Africa province, besides the islands of Sicily, Corsica, Sardinia, Malta and the Balearics." I, quite frankly am thoroughly surprised someone cracked the code. Jonjonjohny (talk) 21:59, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
I just happen to be a history buff, so it was a case of sheer luck. Strangely, my Wikipedia editing doesn't really do justice to what my interests are.--¿3family6contribs00:33, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
With regards to this edit, could you show me which discussion on the grunge page you were referring to? I do recall one discussion on that article about the relation of grunge to hardcore, but it didn't seem to reach any sort of consensus.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 18:45, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
Ah. I had seen that discussion before but hadn't looked closely enough at it, and thus thought it only ruled out grunge as metal. Upon closer examination it rules out hardcore also. Guess I should get to work taking them off the hardcore list. My bad.--Invisiboy42293 (talk) 04:46, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
Hi. I posted a couple of questions down in the Discussion section of the DRN case you filed regarding Crunkcore & Kesha. Could you take a look at them? They are at the bottom of the case. Thanks. --Noleander (talk) 14:32, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
I thought it reached consensus. krazycev13: In all honesty, Kesha is not a crunkcore artist under any stretch of the imagination. If people say don't keep her, then don't keep her. Syxxpackid420: Like 3Fasmily6 i don't care if Kesha is included. Hadomaru: I feel we have no real reason to keep Ke$ha in any article about Crunkcore. Tryptofish: I don't think I have much to offer the discussion Mabuska: Personally I believe this issue boils down to WP:IDONTLIKE Jonjonjohny: I support the use of the source and the inclusion of Kesha. Eduemoni: I find his statement about Kesha either a satire or a sarcasm. Noleander: I have not yet seen a source saying she is not a Curnkcore artist. ¿3family6: I no longer care what the actual content is. Rich Farmbrough: If the artist is not anywhere described as crunkcore except in one throw-away remark, it would be undue weight to include that remark. Cabe6403: I would agree with Rich Farmbrough that using a single 'throw-away' remark is not enough to list her as 'crunkcore'. Atomequal (talk) 12:48, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
I didn't see it until it was too late, but I also think it should be removed. And the last two arguments actually make sense. Atomequal (talk) 22:33, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
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Wishing you peace, love and joy! I've seen your amazing contributions regarding Lecrae... Keep up the good work! Cheers, Sofffie7 (talk) 16:44, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Hello,
We are having a difficulty in reaching consensus regarding the genre of Kyuss, which we are discussing here. The discussion also includes the credibility of Allmusic. As you are a skilled contributor and have participated in discussions regarding Allmusic's credibility, we'd be grateful if you could participate in our discussion and help us to reach a consensus. Thank you. Myxomatosis75 (talk) 17:30, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
You seem not to fully understand in the least this concept, when it come to critical reviews because the website and the reviewer must be included in the box and in the prose or else it is undeniably plagiarism. You must give appropriate attribution in the article for the website and the reviewer, the website does not own the review nor the rating it is them that only publishes the content. I will leave you be in making Wikipedia's Christian Music article shear plagiarism. I am out!HotHat (talk) 22:01, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Burning Lights is the article in question that I forgot to mention in the critical reviews section. I think you clearly miss the point anytime you take a rating it does not belong exclusively to the website it belongs equally to the reviewer and the publisher. We must include the name of the reviewer in the ratings box under the source because the website and the reviewer are co-responsible parties to the rating. Also, when it comes to prose you left out reviewer names, when taking their quotes, which is a significant violation of plagiarism i.e. USA Today review. Now, their is another subject that I feel the need to address with you, and that is the fact of Worship Leader and Louder Than the Music, which the former is a magazine in print and online that has been available since 1994, and this makes it significantly more notable and noteworthy than say Christian Music Zine that should not be italicized because it is just an online publication (See IndianBio), Indie Vision Music, Jesus Freak Hideout and New Release Tuesday. By the way, Louder Than the Music is just as equal to Christian Music Zine, Indie Vision Music and New Release Tuesday in terms of notability and noteworthy. See, Wikipedia has been significantly violating the plagiarism doctrine in most music articles, when it comes to the critical review/response sections, and I was trying to rectify it, and raise the standards of this encyclopedia. You got it correct with the Jesus Freak Hideout review by including the reviewers names and their rating and it needs to be done for the others as well in the box and in prose. I am out!HotHat (talk) 22:24, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
I figured out which article you were talking about on my own, but thanks for referencing it. I'm sorry if my edit offended you, I was just trying to standardize it. Your accusations of plagiarism are baseless. I don't know the location of the specific policy guidelines, but in my two-and-a-half years of editing across numerous music articles and engagements in many discussions, I have never seen any other music articles that include the names of all reviewers in the ratings box. There is no mention of this in the ratings template documentation either. My removal of the names, excepting Jesus Freak Hideout which had two reviews, is entirely within the standards of the ratings documentation. If you have a problem with the standard, I suggest taking it to the template talk page.
As for mentioning the reviewers in prose, my understanding of quotation use is that only the publication is required, if the author is writing for a publication. I removed some mentions of the specific authors arbitrarily to add some variation the the prose, I don't care if they are mentioned or not, so I'm not going to make a fight on this issue.
Finally, I'm sorry about Worship Leader and Louder Than the Music. I'd just never encountered the publications before and was unaware of their reliability. I agree that Christian Music Zine is not that notable. The only reason that I consider it reliable is because some of their reviews are reprinted in New Release Tuesday. I wasn't trying to make an incident.--¿3family6contribs03:22, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
You may want to look here under the section of "Writing Direct Quotations". This is a scholarly publication in an encyclopedia, so should follow the highest standards.HotHat (talk) 03:36, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for taking it to the template page where it can be discussed on a wiki-wide scale. With the OWL guidelines (I can't say how indespensible this site has been for college essays!), that particular section doesn't directly deal with quoting publications, so I'm not sure how it is relevant. It talks about citing them, but that is done on Wikipedia anyway.--¿3family6contribs15:33, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
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On 8 February 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Derek Minor, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Derek Minor was featured in the video game Altered Pro, a take on Sega's Altered Beast, to promote his third studio album? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Derek Minor. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.
Hi. I'd like to make a request to remove the subjective label aspect from the album ratings template page ("favorable"/"mixed", etc.), with a "support" or "against" kind of vote. Would you like to contribute here? Dan56 (talk) 06:43, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
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On 1 March 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Andy Mineo discography, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that professional golfer Bubba Watson was featured in the song "Michael Jackson" by hip hop artist Andy Mineo from his albumFormerly Known? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.
On 1 March 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Formerly Known, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that professional golfer Bubba Watson was featured in the song "Michael Jackson" by hip hop artist Andy Mineo from his albumFormerly Known? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.
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Just wondering if you have any suggestions on verification. There are various magazine references, but nothing linkable online. In your opinion, would pdf of magazine article help. There are several references on various Christian Metal albums. Also interviews on various other radio outlets, but nothing I can find online. Any thoughts? Thank you Armorbearer777 (talk) 22:54, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
A PDF by an unaffiliated magazine is an excellent source. I wish that I could help more, but I am really busy with college right now. The promotional outlets such as HM Magazine are good, just try to make sure that the references are from those outlets, not the radio show.--¿3family6contribs20:37, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
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|caption = (From Left to Right: Fatty, Crouton, Soul Glow Activatur, Nadaddy, Chap Stique
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asp |title=House of Heroes, "Say No More" Review |publisher=[[Jesus Freak Hideout]]|author=[[[[Blimey Cow#Josh Taylor|Josh Taylor]] |date=May 1, 2006 |accessdate=April 7, 2009}}</ref>
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| "Game Break"</br><small>([[[Statik Selektah]] featuring Lecrae, [[Termanology]], and [[Posdnuos]])</small><ref>{{cite web|
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Cow".<ref>{{cite web|title=Anonymous asked: How did y'all come up with the "Blimey Cow" name? :)|url=http://blimeycow.tumblr.com/post/22257636481/how-did-yall-come-up-with-the-blimey-cow-name|
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* [[Dio (band)|Dio]]<ref>Chantler, Chris. September 2005). "The Power and the Glory: A Brief History of Power Metal". ''[[Terrorizer (magazine)|Terrorizer]]'
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Hello! Your submission of Template:Did you know nominations/Mayday (Lecrae song) at the Did You Know nominations page is not complete; see step 3 of the nomination procedure. If you do not want to continue with the nomination, tag the nomination page with {{db-g7}}, or ask a DYK admin. Thank you. DYKHousekeepingBot (talk) 07:54, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
. The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needed to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass, otherwise it will fail. See Talk:Gravity (Lecrae album) for things which need to be addressed. Tomcat (7) 12:04, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
; see Talk:Gravity (Lecrae album) for comments about the article. Well done! Tomcat (7) 17:44, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
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