Talk:Princess Changde

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Monogamy scandal - original research?

@SongRuyi, please would you expand on how the current sourcing for these paragraphs in the Princess Changde § Monogamy scandal section substantiates these statements:

That it was The most telling event in her life?
Feeling her honor and status had been grievously insulted, Princess Changde did not address the matter through private channels or family intermediaries. Instead, she exercised her ultimate privilege: direct access to the emperor.
The emperor's reaction was immediate and draconian, demonstrating that an affront to his full sister was an affront to the throne itself.
The death sentence was never meant to be carried out; it was a terrifying demonstration of imperial fury and a public affirmation of the princess's inviolable status.

I'm not suggesting that Changde did not complain about Xue Huan's behaviour, and that he was punished as you describe. What I don't understand at the moment is how the current sourcing backs up Changde's purported feelings, her decision making, the emperor's thoughts that an affront on her was an affront on him, and that the death sentence was intended for show only. Cheers, SunloungerFrog (talk) 05:27, 31 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There’s no time for this right now because the article is currently at AfD, and you asked for quotes from 《明实录类纂》, which were used as sources in the paragraphs you questioned. I’ll try to address those points in the AfD discussion first. SongRuyi (talk) 06:23, 31 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I look forward to you addressing them in due course, should the article be kept. Cheers, SunloungerFrog (talk) 06:36, 31 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I rewrote the paragraph from a historian’s point of view because, unfortunately, I could not access the full content of the relevant paragraphs in Google Books. When I searched for this princess using multiple related terms—such as 常德公主 + 嘗私侍婢 and 常德公主 + 薛桓—I found these details through Google’s snippet view, which only shows limited text. Based on that, I wrote, based on that historian's commentary on the event, and included it in the Wikipedia article. I have now removed that commentary-based content, since I cannot currently reverify it. If I am able to find the source again, I will consider restoring it with proper citation.

Was that the most telling event in her life? Yes! This is a historically noted incident in Chinese history. For example, Chinese National Geography (中国国家地理) has featured this case as a significant example, alongside similar incidents from various ancient Chinese dynasties. Princess Changde’s case is one of the key examples highlighted. This NetEase article states: This resulted in a rare and famous scene in Ming Dynasty history: Xue was publicly interrogated in the outer court of the Forbidden City, and the court actually sentenced him to death. (结果明代历史上罕见的名场面出现了，薛驸马在紫禁城外庭被当众审问，法司最后竟然给出了一个“当斩”的结论。). SongRuyi (talk) 19:19, 31 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Neither of those sources, or indeed any of the others currently cited in the article, suggest that it was "the most telling event in her life", and so you can't say that in the article: that is your interpretation, and therefore original research. You must stick to the sources you cite. I'd probably also say that neither of those additional sources are especially reliable for historical articles, for which the general preference is for scholarly sources, and neither of these two fall into that bucket, in my opinion. Cheers, SunloungerFrog (talk) 19:47, 31 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Religious endowments - failed verification?

@SongRuyi, in this edit you cite this source:

Wan, Sitong. History of Ming 《明史》, Volume 190, Biographies, Section 78 (biography of the monk Jueyi). 「天順元年，駙馬都尉薛桓及常德長公主，以所賜第宅為寺，請額。英宗復辟，感后與主翊衛功，特賜名弘善，寵賚優渥。」

However, I couldn't find that quote in either of the online versions for 明史 Volume 190, Biographies, Section 78 that I looked at, specifically:

In fact, a search across the entire 明史 at the Chinese Text Project for 弘善, the temple name given in the quote, only turns up one hit [1]. The name in your other source [2] is also different: 宏善. I'd be grateful if you or perhaps @Toadspike might be able to point out where I'm going wrong. Cheers, SunloungerFrog (talk) 14:51, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find the quote either. The one hit for 弘善 at ctext does seem to be around the correct time period for this to be the same person, but it doesn't mention Changde. I also tried searching all of Chinese Wikisource for Changde and Hongshan [3]; none of the results seem to discuss them together. 宏善 doesn't appear in ctext or that Wikisource chapter either. I would like to hear from SongRuyi on this.

Unrelated, but did Li Hongzhang actually write that other book, 《畿辅通志》? I can't find any mention of its authorship outside of Google Books, but if it's true, that's really cool. Toadspike [Talk] 16:23, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

did Li Hongzhang actually write that other book, 《畿辅通志》 I'd never heard of it before, but according to a passing mention here apparently he did! Cheers, SunloungerFrog (talk) 20:18, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]