Talk:Objections to evolution

NPOV issues 2023

Can I give an opinion on what I am reading? B/c I might be an editor but I also use Wikipedia to learn stuff. An on controversial issues I like to read NPOV to get a balanced reading of the conflicts. am... I am not getting that here. Someone mentioned "Wikipedia's voice"? It is like A and B have a debate and both parties have conflicting beliefs. Yet only B (pro-Darwin) gets to invoke Wikipedia's authoritive Voice over what A said. And that is what this article reads like. To the point where me (no horse in this race) reading this knows 100% that this article was controlled by subject B in the debate. I have seen others raise this objection and been closed down. So what hope do I have? But let the record reflect the tone of this article is not a NPOV position unlike other articles where there is a conflict of views. (Israel-Palestine) for example. Every device has been used to dismiss position A (against evolution). Start with the slant in the lede. Hausa warrior (talk) 11:29, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Evolution is consensus within science. This is not a conflict between two equally valid standpoints. It is a conflict between science on one side and religious ignoramuses, nutcases and liars on the other.

See WP:CHARLATANS and WP:FRINGE. Also WP:YWAB. --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:24, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I totally agree, to me this article feels like it should be called "Refuting Objections to Evolution". 2601:547:E01:1DC0:12D8:FE21:840E:90E6 (talk) 15:52, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Of course it does. Those objections are all stupid and ignorant, and it is not Wikipedia's job to spread anti-science propaganda. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:45, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Accurately representing an opposing viewpoint is not spreading anti-science propaganda. 2601:547:E01:1DC0:1C34:FFF1:FA7C:EC11 (talk) 12:41, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

We do represent it. Just we don't represent it as valid/true. It is a conflict between mainstream science and scientifically inane views. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:51, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Well done Hausa Warrior, my conclusion exactly. I had to stop halfway through reading it as a start the first time in a long time of reading Wiki that I was reminded “oh yes these articles can be written by any old person, with no body of evidence and slanted to whatever bias they like”. And this article certainly reeks of it. The emotionally charged way that Hob Gadling is replying makes it so obvious. 2A02:6B66:48F4:0:B523:38E1:3F7F:1EEE (talk) 08:22, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

This is bullshit. The article is based on reliable sources. Your problem seems to be that the only sources you have been exposed to are far away from any reliability, so you believe in the false rumors spread by creationists instead of actual facts.

If you have any concrete issues instead of vague accusations, you are welcome here. As is, your writings are not helpful. --Hob Gadling (talk) 10:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Isolated systems

"This, then, is the general statement of the second law of thermodynamics:

the total entropy of any system plus that of its environment increases as a result of any natural process." Physics, Principle with Applications, SIXTH EDITION, p. 425, D.C Giancoli, Prentice Hall, Upper Saddle River, New Jersey,1998

This excerpt from a physics text book is at variance with: "The claims have been criticized for ignoring that the second law only applies to isolated systems." LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 19:14, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Hello @LEBOLTZMANN2:, I'm not sure I understand what the problem is. Both statements agree. If your issue is that the words "isolated system" are not included in the first quote, It's most likely because it is presented as a general statement in the introduction of the book. And if not, here is an other source for the definition that explicitly mention it [1]. And again, since trying to apply the second law in a non isolated system doesn't make any sense anyway, it's obviously implied even if not mentioned explicitly. --McSly (talk) 21:45, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

To more clearly state the variance of the text book definition with the article, please note the word "any" before system contrasted with the word "only" preceding isolated system. Any system would include isolated, open and closed systems. It is noteworthy that the claim of only isolated systems has no reference whereas the submitted definition is from a physics text book.

Another question, "Since Earth receives energy from the Sun, it is an open system. The second law of thermodynamics applies only to isolated systems." Would not logic then say since Earth is an open system therefore the second law does not apply to Earth, everything of Earth? LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 19:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Since the Earth receives energy from the Sun, see dissipative system. A Nobel prize was granted for that idea. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

In the ten years since your first attempt at inserting creationist pseudoscience into the article, neither physics nor biology have changed enough to make evolution suddenly contradict the Second Law. --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:58, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Lacking

Problems wiht evolution: 1) Cambrian explosion: All body plans appear at same time, early in Cambrian explosion. Eyes and other complex features all appear at once in Cambrian explosion. Fossil record is firm. 2) Avalon explosion single cells to complex life all at once. Fossil record is firm. 3) Lack of transitional fossils for most of life forms. Animals appear remain unchanged and most go extinct. The past predictions that new fossils finds would fill in the gap in the transitional fossils as not come true. There are “missing links” for most species. 4) Living fossils: Horseshoe crab, Nautilidae, Australian lungfish, nurse shark and many more. Animals appear, remain unchanged for long time spans. 5) Convergent evolution: Many complex features appear in unrelated animals and plants, too many to be evolution. Look at Chameleon and Sand Lance fish, same eyes (independent eye movements and special focusing lenses) and a darting tongue. The list is very long of convergent evolution, too long. 6) 6) Studies have shown mutations are only beneficial for species that have a very large population size, like bacteria. For all other animals mutations drives the species towards extinction. So mutations do not produce new and complex features, like eyes. When animals are stressed and have a small population size, we protect then, as they do not change. Mutations occur when DNA is damaged and left unrepaired. The ratio of negative to beneficial mutations in anything larger than an ant is harmful to the life form. 7) Natural selection can change an animal’s color and other small changes, but has been shown to have limits. Also, it has been shown that once the pressure that forces the change is gone, the animal will go back to its original state, changes are not permanent! Finch beak evolution, shown as proof, always fails to note the finch does not keep the large beak. As the food that forced the large beak is gone, the beak returns to its original size. 8) Origins of life: There was no primordial soup. There was no time for natural origins, as soon as the Earth cooled there was life. The first life forms were not “simple” as predicted. Cyanobacterium is very complex. There was not one simple early life form, there was a complete ecosystem with sulfate-reducing microorganisms also shows up early in the record, also a very complex life form. 9) Some clades are very diverse and some unusually sparse, evolution should work everywhere the same. 10) The recovery after mass extinctions is very quick, too quick for evolution. Permian-triassic Extinction: 90 percent to 95 extinction rate. Yet, life recovered in just thousands of years. Triassic-jurassic Extinction: Triassic dinosaurs gone and in just thousands of years all new Jurassic dinosaurs. Cretaceous-tertiary Extinction: Mass extinction, all dinosaurs are gone, as is most life forms, yet there are all new life forms in just thousands of years. 11) Breeding for dogs and horses for thousands of years. Change comes at a heavy cost, shorter life span and poor health. 12) DNA testing of close animals has shown they are not related. The two river dolphins and ocean dolphins are not related. The two panda bears are not related and the list can go on and on. 13) The proof of evolution is mostly: Animal A looks like animal B, so animal B must have come from animal A, how childish if you can not show how it happened. 14) Common Ancestry problem. Animals that have a recent common ancestor are too different. A donkey is very close in ancestry to the horse and zebra. So close that they may breed producing mules and zonkeys. Yet the donkey, horse and zebra are very different, too different. The donkey is very cautious and departs from danger, they can not be used in a battle. The horse willingly will go into battle, some like the danger. The Donkey and the horse are easily tamed and once tame will remain tame. Zebra are difficult to tame and difficult to remain tame. Other sample of this problem can be found in nature. 15) “Evolution Junk”, those that only believe in evolution have put on blinders and have made gross errors in the past about designs in nature. The theory is evolution is a series of random mutations, thus residual vestige of random mutations will be found in nature. In this thinking many scientists overlooked designs in life. Only later to be shown that what they called junk, was in fact a good design. Examples of this are many: Tonsils, Appendix, Panda's thumb, Whale hips (still taught as vestige, but this is wrong), Junk DNA, Humpback Whales fins, and more. There are neutral mutations, like some humans have three or one kidney, but these are not residual vestige or a case for design as they are rare. 16) Human exceptionalism: Charles Darwin wrote and many scientists followed this thinking: Animals that most look like us will most closely match our cognitive capabilities. After study and research, the animals that has the closest cognitive capabilities to humans are crows, ravens and New Caledonian Crow. The New Caledonian Crow can: Make fish hooks, teach others how to make fish hooks. Crows and ravens (same family) are the only animals to be able to solve multi step problems and make tools to solve these problems. MRI scans have shown crow and raven brains are the closest brain to humans. Yet Human exceptionalism has shown are not just a higher animal. Humans different much from animals. Humans are the only one to be active in: art, musical, jewelry, use symbolism, active religion, written languages, mathematics, have moral dilemmas and much more. Many of these appeared as soon as humans appear. Neanderthal has few of these abilities and is too different from Humans. Near the end Neanderthals lived at the same time as Humans. Neanderthals had no tear ducts, very large sinuses, large barrel shaped chest, short arms, heavy bones, different braincase, different ear bones, and more. There is no “missing link” to humans from bipedal primates. The large brain evolution hypothesis has been falsified after the discovery of early hominin with larger brains than later hominin fossils. Telecine Guy (talk) 01:23, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

This articlew is not supposed to mention every single piece of wrong-headed bullshit that has been used to attack biologicial science. That is the job of An Index to Creationist Claims. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:52, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

That’s fine. Telecine Guy just decimated the whole article with his points either way. Job done. 2A02:6B66:48F4:0:B523:38E1:3F7F:1EEE (talk) 08:15, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

That statement makes no sense. This is a Wikipedia talk page, and its goal is to improve an article. Neither your contribution nor that of the other guy does that. --Hob Gadling (talk) 10:32, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Your arguments betray a serious misunderstanding of evolution in almost every aspect. The cambrian explosion took place over millions of years after multicelluar organisms already formed, and was therefore able to evolve relatively quickly due to environmental pressures. What you are describing as happening "all at once" took place over millions of years. Just because you personally don't understand how that may occur does not disprove evolution but is merely evidence of your own ignorance, which is further evidenced by your frequent mispellings. You also claim that there are no transitional fossils for most species, but completely ignore the fact that fossilization is extremely rare. Of course most minor organisms are not fossilized several times.

Evolution can predict where a fossil will be. It can predict genetic sequences between organisms. Do you know why humans have a tailbone? It's because our distant ancestors had a tail. The human embryo goes through stages, first being microbal, then with gills, then ape-like fur. Evolution's evidence is so robust that anyone who disbelieves in it either does not fully understand it or is simply an idiot. FriendlyNeighborhoodAspie (talk) 11:56, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

"Supporters of evolution"

In the "Improbability" section there's a sentence that says "Supporters of evolution". what does this mean exactly?, isn't evolution a verifiable fact?, a fact isn't something that you "support", it would be like saying "supporters of gravity" or "supporters of The Holocaust", it doesn't make much sense, does it?.

Is Wikipedia implying that evolution might be false?, or that evolution is just a belief and not a fact?

That sentence should be removed because it gives too much weight to pseudoscientific ideas. 2806:109F:10:1CDD:E1AC:432B:2A6F:610B (talk) 01:13, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

a fact isn't something that you "support", it would be like saying "supporters of gravity" or "supporters of The Holocaust", it doesn't make much sense, does it?.

Sure you can. I think it's fine in this context and doesn't really have the effect you describe. Remsense诉 01:34, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Article review

It has been a while since this article was reviewed, so I took a look and saw lots of uncited statements, including entire paragraphs and at the end of paragraphs. Should this article go to WP:GAR? Z1720 (talk) 15:23, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

Objections to evolution

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result pending

Lots of uncited statements, including entire paragraphs. Z1720 (talk) 05:47, 3 May 2025 (UTC)