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Citations Needed

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This article is in serious need of citations. Drcchutch (talk) 20:58, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

article lacks credible citations ChuckBMZ (talk) 20:15, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Controversy, lawsuit (2019)

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It seems the article’s subject is raising funds, alongside another complainant, for a lawsuit in the UK for being “Targeted, harassed and falsely labelled a fascist”. Obviously the fact that it has resulted in a libel lawsuit would suggest that this is a risky topic for a BLP, but a brief Google search agrees with my own experience: I had only heard of Power in relation to the anti-anti-fascism row, and came here looking for context, and indeed it seems that most of the recent articles about / appearances by the subject are connected to this controversy / related “cancelation”, though aside from the subject’s personal blog, not much recognizable as a reliable source.

So my question is, would a lawsuit both help to establish notability, as well as provide BLP-safe sources for this topic? --OrderOfNineNagles (talk) 23:01, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Notability

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This article is extremely skimpy on independent third-party RSes, and it's been tagged over this lack for quite a while. What are the three best independent third-party RSes demonstrating Power's notability under WP:CREATIVE, WP:GNG or any other Wikipedia guideline? - David Gerard (talk) 18:57, 12 November 2023 (UTC

Might be a good redirect to her book What Do Men Want? which at least got four RS press reviews so would pass prima facie notability, unlike its author as such - David Gerard (talk) 20:54, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As nobody in a month has come forth with sourcing actually about Power separate from the book, I'm redirecting the article there for now. If RSes show up about Power and not the book, we can always break it out again - David Gerard (talk) 19:46, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If there were any book to redirect this to, it would be one regarding One dimensional woman (her most oft-cited work), but alas such an article does not yet exist. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 22:23, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And if we're so desperate for sources on these sorts of works, I'd recommend:
Et cetera.
Redirecting to What Do Men Want? seems inadequate. Article surely needs to be expanded, and I think there's adequate sourcing to do that. But BLARing the article seems inadequate when so much sourcing exists. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 22:54, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've temporarily restored the BLAR in light of the WP:BLPREQUESTDELETE concerns, though I do maintain that a reasonable draft for this individual can be written. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 22:57, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I mean if you wanna write it, please do! - David Gerard (talk) 23:34, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If I can break in here, I think redirecting is unsound on the notability criteria; this is someone with a significant public profile as a philosopher over many years, and one of the central characters in Marx Reloaded in 2011. Rachel0898 (talk) 03:54, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I note that someone, for some odd reason, has removed all the references to her appearance in that film. I'm going to revert this, there was no logical reason for doing that. But you'll see her appearance confirmed on IMDB https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1884351/ Rachel0898 (talk) 03:59, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

She is a confirmed nazi now

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Probably worth adding that to her bio 92.28.82.16 (talk) 00:01, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added references to this, citing https://luketurner.com/Nina_Power/#messages Roobscoob (talk) 02:08, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is libelous comment being published by an unreliable source with an animus against the subject who is deliberately & maliciously taking an ironic comment out of context in order to alter its meeting. 103.170.73.37 (talk) 10:26, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
fuck off nazi 50.229.151.138 (talk) 19:47, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are many comments here actually. 75.185.211.58 (talk) 20:05, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How is it libelous when the person saying it just won the libel lawsuit? 2600:100E:B080:A97C:798C:70D:27D6:EF46 (talk) 20:36, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sources are strong. Judiciary and insolvency record. Feltmatress (talk) 10:04, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that a judicial record is an adequate source to substantiate her political views as far right and her involvement in a neo nazi milieu. Drcchutch (talk) 20:19, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
She is also no longer editor with compact magazine Feltmatress (talk) 22:48, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Have restored references to the official court judgement and bankruptcy register. Have used the cite:court template which I am not familiar with, so would be grateful if someone who knows better could check that the parameters (case number, court name, etc) are entered correctly. Chaikney (talk) 11:14, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The government is libelous?[1]https://www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov.uk/eiir/IIRCaseIndivDetail.asp?CaseId=704486509&IndivNo=710057929&Court=HIGH&OfficeID=700000069&CaseType=B EnbyEditor (talk) 09:47, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:BLPPRIMARY "Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person." You need secondary sources to include this. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 12:37, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The text you removed was of the form "the court ruled", not "the named person is". Deliberately worded as a statement of fact and judicial record and not an assertion about the person.
Also it is a court ruling, not a transcript (which I take to mean "written record of evidence laid in court", not "judge's finding of fact"). If you feel that the wording can be tightened, grand, do so. But completely slicing it out is not justified. Restoring. Please do be precise about the issue you have with the text. Chaikney (talk) 12:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those are "court records" and "other public documents". This article is a BLP. You need secondary sources to support any statement which has been or can be challenged. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 13:08, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have now raised the matter at BLP/N. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 13:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently secondary sources that I do not have time to edit into the article or format properly:
Chaikney (talk) 13:38, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The first appear to be some sort of PR-firm (via an aggregator), the second possibly some legal firm, involved I don't know, that one (5rb) may be good for "The case and the counterclaim was dismissed in November 2023." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:16, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Her bankruptcy order was reported/published in yesterday's London Gazette, listing Turner as petitioner: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4655863 — LittleDwangs (talk) 16:14, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like WP:BLPPRIMARY to me, but I could be wrong. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:37, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The claim that Power thinks transwomen do not face threats of violence seems to be false, there is no citation or quote. Having looked at the Warwick article it is refering to an article in Compact, which has no such claim. Please read https://www.compactmag.com/article/welcome-to-terf-island/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChuckBMZ (talk • contribs) 22:30, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was a citation on it, which linked to this article: https://theboar.org/2023/11/activists-protest-warwick-event-featuring-gender-critical-speaker/
In the article it contains the paragraph "Power’s talk was followed by a Q&A session, during which members of the audience asked questions about topics ranging from ‘slut-shaming’ to sexual assault. A Home Office report has suggested that crimes against transgender people in the UK have risen by 11% compared to last year. When asked about this trend, and whether she thought her remarks had contributed to it, Power disputed the notion that anti-transgender hate crime was a pressing issue. Referring to transgender women, she suggested: “Men who purport to be women are not victims of violence.” She added: “I don’t hate anybody – I’m just committed to reality”
So I think the quote is indeed real, I have restored the content to the article. GraziePrego (talk) 01:16, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even if one accepts this student newspaper as a reliable source for a contentious claim about a living person, it's hard to see that this, or indeed almost anything in the section containing it is WP:DUE. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 07:56, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A writer who has written a lot on gender, sex and feminism and who has taken stances known to be contentious, to the extent that it ended up in the UK High Court? It would be quite remarkable to not include criticisms that people have made of her politics and theories, especially as they relate to transgender people in public life.
And a quick look at the Boar turns up this (https://theboar.org/about/) quote from a TV journalist about them: "“A consistently high standard, like a fine regional newspaper with an outstanding magazine. The dedication of the staff to produce this newspaper on a weekly basis is incredible.”" which, when there's no claim that the story or quotations or false (and when NP is quoted/interviewed in the same piece) says to me that there's no good reason to call the source unreliable.
Chaikney (talk) 13:49, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Noe of which alters the fact that the Warwick Anti-Sexism Society is s student society whose opinions on issues carry no particular weight except perhaps in the minds of their own student newspaper. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 14:46, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
student newspapers are still newspapers and are considered reliable until otherwise. The incident is interesting... though, I will state there is probably a case to remove this incident if it isn't covered by more than one source, as per WP:PUBLICFIGURE/ Bluethricecreamman (talk) 15:00, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2a02 anonymous IP user

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Please stop doing WP:EDITWAR on a talk page, and stop editting other peoples comments.

Wikipedia has other tools, including IP blocks, for people who attempt to editwar, break policy, and refuse to participate in discussions when they keep editwarring. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:49, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Times source

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Article currently references 'Brown, David (10 November 2023). "Twitter no place for debate, judge tells intellectuals". The Times. p. 19.' No trace of this can be found online. While offline sources are perfectly legitimate, it is strange that such a recent article is not online. Can anyone verify its existence? cagliost (talk) 13:57, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Cagliost, I accessed the article via the Gale One File News search accessible via the Wikipedia Library. I can't figure out how to directly link to the article. — LittleDwangs (talk) 15:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This might work: http://link.gale.com/apps/doc/A772243609/GPS?u=wikipedia&sid=bookmark-GPS&xid=508cedaf — LittleDwangs (talk) 15:38, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! cagliost (talk) 18:51, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mentioning racial views from the body in the lead

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I don't know if this has been removed from the lead, or if it was never there, but it seems such an important part of her life that it should be included, so I added it, with consideration for NPOV. "Her views on racial inequality, especially about Jews, have attracted criticism and caused her professional problems." I don't understand why this topic was deleted, it is based on sourced information in the body of the article. 2A00:23C8:4517:AA00:7E58:1763:BF7B:C789 (talk) 06:03, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

As written, it's WP:OR. There is nothing on Jews or reactions to her views in the article to summarize in the WP:LEAD and any content on that would need WP:BLP-good sources. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:33, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Bankrupt in lead, not just body

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She is a bankrupt. It is sourced information in the body of the article This is important and should be in the lead. If it shouldn't please explain why not instead of simply deleting my contributions to this talk page 2A00:23C8:4517:AA00:7E58:1763:BF7B:C789 (talk) 06:05, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:LEAD. "Bankrupt" is in one sentence in the body, and a ref from 2024 doesn't mean bankrupt now. "Old values and virtues" also fails WP:LEAD. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:20, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It probably does, as it is less than 12 months ago. "she was declared bankrupt in 2024" is a lot longer. 2A00:23C8:4517:AA00:7E58:1763:BF7B:C789 (talk) 06:33, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
And per article content, doesn't fit WP:LEAD. "Probably" is not good enough in a WP:BLP. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:35, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This must meet blp, lots about it in the article text
used her professional problems and she was bankrupted after an unsuccessful libel action. 2A00:23C8:4517:AA00:7E58:1763:BF7B:C789 (talk) 06:36, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for engaging! 2A00:23C8:4517:AA00:7E58:1763:BF7B:C789 (talk) 06:37, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Gråbergs Gråa Sång. Her bankruptcy is not a defining characteristic and it should not be in the lead. Meters (talk) 06:40, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Her views on racial inequality, especially about Jews, have attracted criticism and caused her professional problems"
is not a summary of article content. Nothing about Jews or reactions to her views in the article Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:44, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, that's why I undid that too. Meters (talk) 06:48, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
And the "She has a BA, MA, & Phd, and formerly worked as a university lecturer, college tutor," is unmentioned and/or uncited in the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:56, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree I see no reason to mention her bankruptcy in the lead. Perhaps it could come if there is brief mention of her unsuccessful defamation suit, but otherwise I don't see why it belongs. She is a writer and a philosopher rather than someone involved in business so a bankruptcy is a relatively insignificant detail. Nil Einne (talk) 09:11, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Why is Luke Turner mentioned in the lead?

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If mentioned later in the article, fair enough, but her career existed long before that lawsuit & I wouldn’t say that is really what she is known for as a public figure. Luke Turner does not even have his own Wikipedia page, it could be argued that he himself is not a notable figure besides his inactive performance art collaboration a with celebrity. Rosie x rosie (talk) 20:56, 27 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Because WP:LEAD. Since the Turner "thing" is a major part of the article, content-wise, it gets mentioned in the WP:LEAD. It's the local style. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:17, 28 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Well, as she is a known public intellectual with dozens of WP worthy sources available online, even from decades before the court case, I think it would be appropriate to update the body of the article & thus the lead as well. A quick search shows that she is largely known for her published writing and not via Luke Turner, who is hardly a known figure in his own right and is virtually irrelevant outside of the court case in the UK. It seems wrong that her notability is attached to someone who is not a notable figure by WP standards, rather than her actual publications. Who can I ask to help with unlocking / editing this article? Rosie x rosie (talk) 01:24, 29 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Well, (assuming WP:COI doesn't apply to you) once you are WP:AUTOCONFIRMed, you can edit the article yourself, citing the WP:BLP-good sources you use as you go along. The goal of this WP-article is to be a summary of WP:RS independent of Nina Power, what she says about herself is generally uninteresting for WP-purposes. One possibly useful source:[2]
You can request un-protecting at WP:RFPP. You can suggest sources/wording on this talkpage, if other editors think they are a good idea they might act on them at some point. You can also ask for input at the talkpages of the Wikiprojects listed at the top of this talkpage.
Like everything else around here, this article is a work in progress, and if you can improve it from the WP-POV, that's a good thing. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:25, 29 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, no COI here & understand that the sources need to be independent & not self-published. It is challenging, with many sources paywalled & my lack of WP experience— but I will work on this, thanks for the helpful advice. Rosie x rosie (talk) 12:42, 29 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Rosie x rosie Yes, getting the good sources can be challenging, assuming they exist, but in this case I think they do. If you see pay-walled sources in the reference section or somewhere else you like to get at, you can try WP:RX. Here are 2 sources you might be able to get some use out of: [1][2] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:31, 29 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Laughren, Finola (2 January 2025). "The unpopular (manosphere) men of popular feminism". Continuum. 39 (1): 63–78. doi:10.1080/10304312.2024.2403559. ISSN 1030-4312.
  2. ^ Fournier, Lauren (23 February 2021). Autotheory as Feminist Practice in Art, Writing, and Criticism. MIT Press. ISBN 978-0-262-36258-0.
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