Talk:Minnesota-style pizza

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Minnesota

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Minnesota-style

Nice article, but I think the name is wrong. It should be Minnesota-style pizza, rather than Minneapolis-style, for three main reasons:

1. According to the history section, it began at Red’s Savoy Inn, which was located on 7th Street in East Saint Paul, not Minneapolis.

2. The earliest version of the pizza may actually be Sammy's pizza, which started in northern Minnesota in the early 1950s. Again, not Minneapolis.

3. All of the references in the article except for one refer to it as Minnesota style, not Minneapolis style.

I would add that "Minnesota style" comes most naturally to the tongue, and it is probably the most commonly used term, certainly by Red's Savoy. Jcbutler (talk) 16:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge proposal

I'd like to merge this into tavern-style pizza. There's sourcing out there that speaks to Minnesota style, yes. And yet, I noted that the Star Tribune effectively said that the only difference from tavern style is a slightly softer crust, Andrew Zimmern doesn't think it's a different kind of pizza at all, and The Takeout reported that it's a recent marketing invention. I'd like to think we can easily cover this topic in the tavern-style article. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 02:18, 7 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

While some sources do claim that there is little difference between the two, more articles say that there is substantial difference such as the spicier sauce and placement of the toppings. Additionally this article is quite long and I do not believe that you could effectively add the history and characteristics to the tavern style article Kahlo157 (talk) 19:17, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A spicier sauce—not, not spicy—is not a "substantial difference", and I haven't seen a source that says the toppings are any different from tavern style. (Tavern style can have many toppings as well.) What I have seen is that this is one restaurant's 2017 marketing invention. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 19:36, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that article is talking about red savoy’s sota style branding because Minnesota-style pizza already existed before red savoy’s rebrand as a distinct style Kahlo157 (talk) 21:58, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally many articles used in this wiki page talk about the history and characteristics of Minnesota style pizza if you would like to do further research Kahlo157 (talk) 22:03, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies. To clarify, the pizza type existed, but the branding only came into wider use in 2017. That's something sources make clear. I've listed this at WP:Merge requests. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 01:52, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I am still not sure why we require a merge and if we do would we also merge other styles similar to tavern style such as St. Louis style? Kahlo157 (talk) 18:25, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm open to it, but on a quick look of the available sources out there, it definitely seems like there's more to support the independent and wider notability of St. Louis pizza. For example, it's mentioned in The Pizza Bible and Encyclopedia of American Folklife (Minnesota style is not). The cheese that tops it is the subject of a long-form article in Food + Wine, as well as regular-sized articles in Bon Appétit and PMQ. And there's a long-form but local piece from the KC NPR (almost 30 minutes long). Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 22:40, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I personally oppose merging the three articles as they all have some distinctions Kahlo157 (talk) 01:02, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also inclined to oppose merging. The current version of the page (at the time of writing) mentions not only the spicier sauce but the "slightly softer" crust as well and that toppings are generous. I've only had Tavern-style pizza, not Minnesota style but, personally, I do find the crunchy crust to be a defining characteristic. And the sample images File:Chicago thin crust pizza.jpg (tavern style) and File:Minneapolis-style pizza.jpg to me look different enough to be considered separate (albeit related) styles.

But that's just my personal take. Searching online did return some articles/blog posts that lean towards Minnesota style being different: What is Minneapolis style pizza, exactly? quotes Zimmern but argues that it is a separate style (it turns out this is reference #6!), What is Minnesota-style pizza? mentions the thicker crust, and What is Minnesota Style Pizza? shows a lot of pizzas that don't quite resemble the tavern style I'm used to. There may be notability issues here, but it baffles me that there's no question regarding the notability of St. Louis style, while this discussion seems to lean towards and is influenced by Zimmern's opinion. (This is noted at the end of Pang's article quoted above.)

IMO the question should be: is Minnesota style (regardless of its branding history) different enough from Tavern style to be considered its own style. Given that this is Wikipedia, then I wonder: are there other culinary sources saying about Minnesota style? Going from the references on this article, I can at least note some differences:

The Star Tribune article states: "While Chicago's tavern style is revered for its crispy crust, the crusts are a little softer in Minnesota." It goes on to explain how the lack of leavening is key in crispy crusts (quoting "Minnesota chef and author Amy Thielen ") and mentions how some local varieties do have some, albeit "not much", leavening.

In all, I think there's at least enough evidence casting doubt in Minnesota style being "no different" than tavern style, requiring a merge. It's true they are related, but so is St. Louis style. The same thing could be said of Detroit-style pizza: it's been around for decades, didn't really have a name per-se, and wasn't renown until the 2010s, which is pretty recent. --Stux (talk) 13:05, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]