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Renaming

[edit]

If none object, I would like to rename the article to Arch of the Philaeni. This name is also attested and, moreover, the present name is misleading, since the arch, unlike the Arch of Marcus Aurelius in Tripoli, was not made with marble, but with travertine, a quite different stone. Alex2006 (talk) 06:41, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

NEUTRAL Although name not a point of big disagreement for me, it has to be mentioned anyway that many sources, especially English ones, call it The Marble Arch, whether it made for marble or not!!!--Maher27777 (talk) 10:59, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree Maher, this is a point against renaming it. I will look better in the internet, to find what is the ratio between the "marble" and the "Philaeni" sources. I think that this odd name arose because the people describing it where above all allied soldiers during WWII hich did not know his real name and the story behind it. Alex2006 (talk) 11:28, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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Article name

[edit]

Proposing that this article be moved to "Arch of the Philaeni". Modern English-language sources predominantly use this term (or its Italian or Latin translations: Arco dei Fileni and Arae Philaenorum).[1][2][3][4][5] "Marble Arch" was a nickname used primarily by British troops (in reference to the London version).[6] Renaming also removes the parenthetical disambiguator, which is preferred per WP:TITLEDAB. Meluiel (talk) 01:31, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Agbamu, Samuel (2024). Restorations of Empire in Africa: Ancient Rome and Modern Italy's African Colonies. Oxford, UK: Oxford University Press. pp. 206–237. doi:10.1093/9780191943805.001.0001. ISBN 978-0-19-194380-5.
  2. ^ Anderson, Sean (2010). "The Light and the Line: Florestano Di Fausto and the Politics of 'Mediterraneità'". California Italian Studies. 1 (1). doi:10.5070/C311008864. ISSN 2155-7926.
  3. ^ Hom, Stephanie Malia (2012). "Empires of tourism: travel and rhetoric in Italian colonial Libya and Albania, 1911–1943". Journal of Tourism History. 4 (3): 281–300. doi:10.1080/1755182X.2012.711374. ISSN 1755-182X.
  4. ^ Parfitt, Rose (2018). "Fascism, Imperialism and International Law: An Arch Met a Motorway and the Rest is History..." Leiden Journal of International Law. 31 (3): 509–538. doi:10.1017/S0922156518000304. ISSN 0922-1565.
  5. ^ Segrè, Claudio G. (1990). Italo Balbo: A Fascist Life. Berkeley, US; London, UK: University of California Press. p. 309. ISBN 978-0-520-07199-5.
  6. ^ Quinn, Josephine Crawley (2014). "A Carthaginian perspective on the Altars of the Philaeni". In Quinn, Josephine Crawley; Vella, Nicholas C. (eds.). The Punic Mediterranean: Identities and Identification from Phoenician Settlement to Roman Rule. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press. p. 169. doi:10.1017/cbo9781107295193.012. ISBN 978-1-107-29519-3.

Requested move 21 May 2025

[edit]

Marble Arch (Libya) → Arch of the Philaeni – See section Talk:Marble Arch (Libya)#Article name above. "Marble Arch" is only used in the British or Allied WW2 context;[1] modern English-language sources discussing the arch itself tend to use Arch of the Philaeni,[2][3][4][5][6] which also makes the parenthetical disambiguator unnecessary (preferred per WP:TITLEDAB).

References

  1. ^ Quinn, Josephine Crawley (2014). "A Carthaginian perspective on the Altars of the Philaeni". In Quinn, Josephine Crawley; Vella, Nicholas C. (eds.). The Punic Mediterranean: Identities and Identification from Phoenician Settlement to Roman Rule. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press. p. 169. doi:10.1017/cbo9781107295193.012. ISBN 978-1-107-29519-3.
  2. ^ Agbamu, Samuel (2024). Restorations of Empire in Africa: Ancient Rome and Modern Italy's African Colonies. Oxford, UK: Oxford University Press. pp. 206–237. doi:10.1093/9780191943805.001.0001. ISBN 978-0-19-194380-5.
  3. ^ Anderson, Sean (2010). "The Light and the Line: Florestano Di Fausto and the Politics of 'Mediterraneità'". California Italian Studies. 1 (1). doi:10.5070/C311008864. ISSN 2155-7926.
  4. ^ Hom, Stephanie Malia (2012). "Empires of tourism: travel and rhetoric in Italian colonial Libya and Albania, 1911–1943". Journal of Tourism History. 4 (3): 281–300. doi:10.1080/1755182X.2012.711374. ISSN 1755-182X.
  5. ^ Parfitt, Rose (2018). "Fascism, Imperialism and International Law: An Arch Met a Motorway and the Rest is History..." Leiden Journal of International Law. 31 (3): 509–538. doi:10.1017/S0922156518000304. ISSN 0922-1565.
  6. ^ Segrè, Claudio G. (1990). Italo Balbo: A Fascist Life. Berkeley, US; London, UK: University of California Press. p. 309. ISBN 978-0-520-07199-5.

Meluiel (talk) 18:44, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Leave at Marble Arch, per COMMONNAME. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:53, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what you mean by "per COMMONNAME", given the evidence of the sources I've presented above. Could you provide citations to support your position that "Marble Arch" is actually the WP:COMMONNAME, especially beyond the scope of Britain in the Second World War? Thanks. Meluiel (talk) 21:20, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Precisely because it meets COMMONNAME for English-languages sources around the WWII era, because those are the predominant English-language sources that discuss it. This is not an ancient relic. It was destroyed at a time that's now much closer to WWII than today. it:Arco dei Fileni is correct, in Italian, and indeed some of the English language sources you cite yourself use that, so I find Arch of the Philaeni to be particularly unconvincing. An argument that Italian artefacts should be named according to their Italian names would favour Arco dei Fileni over an English translation of that. But overall, I favour COMMONNAME and see those most common names as being the contemporary English ones. I've never heard anyone who actually saw it refer to it as anything else. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:57, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
With regards to "Marble Arch" as the COMMONNAME: the WW2-era use of Marble Arch is superseded by what modern sources prefer, per WP:MODERNPLACENAME: "Older names should be used in appropriate historical contexts when a substantial majority of reliable modern sources do the same; this includes the names of articles relating to particular historical periods." Modern sources overwhelmingly do not use Marble Arch — of those currently in the main article, only Kay 2005 uses it as the principal name, St. John 2011 and Quinn 2014 mention as a British nickname, and the rest do not even mention the term "Marble Arch" at all. Given this lack of modern use, I think keeping the title as "Marble Arch" fails MPN and COMMONNAME.
With regards to "Arch of the Philaeni" or "Arco dei Fileni", I've done a quick survey of what language the sources use:
  • Segre - Latin, not italicized
  • Anderson - Italian, not italicized
  • Agbamu - First English (glossed into the Italian), then uses the italicized Italian throughout.
  • Parfitt - Italian, not italicized
  • Hom - Latin, italicized, glossed into the English
  • Kenrick - Italian
  • Welge - English
Obviously a bit of a mess, though definitely leans Italian. Judging by WP:GNUE, I think that means we should use Arco dei Fileni for the title? Mainly going by "If a native name is more often used in English sources than a corresponding traditional English name, then use the native name." My untrained eyes can't tell if this spread is enough to say conclusively "Yes, it is established usage to choose untranslated Italian" (per WP:UE). Thoughts? Meluiel (talk) 00:21, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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