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Official language

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Why does this article state this is not an official language anywhere when the Malaysian article states it is an official language of Malaysia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.85.121.208 (talk) 06:07, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. --Joshua Say "hi" to me!What I've done? 10:23, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Jawi

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I disagree that Jawi should be used in this article. The Rumi script (Latin alphabet) is the official script used by the federal government of Malaysia. While this official status does not preclude the usage of Jawi, since this article is about the standardized form of Malay in Malaysia, the article as well as the infobox should reflect the official, standardized script. --Joshua Say "hi" to me!What I've done? 10:28, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Malaysian?

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Malaysia's national language is never called "Malaysian". This is obviously a literal interpretation of the term Bahasa Malaysia. Either stick with "Malay", "standard Malay" or "the Malaysian language". Morinae (talk) 06:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note that there are two articles - Malay language and Malaysian language to represent the two distinct but closely related topics. In the articles, they are referred to as Malay and Malaysian respectively. Doesn't this work? --Merbabu (talk) 06:43, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Many people apparently confuse Malay and Malaysian. Malaysian is a nationality. There was no such thing as Malaysian until 1963, when Malaysia was formed. As of when I'm typing this (4-10-13), I think this article needs a good bit of clean up, partially involving this topic. I'll have to think through exactly how to do this before even attempting to do so, however, because I think I could very easily accidentally make it even worse. Gringo300 (talk) 03:28, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The concerns of @Morinae could be addressed if we renamed the page as "Bahasa Malaysia"? Pakbelang (talk) 07:28, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is silly, written by those probably who have no idea what is the official language is. The Constitution clearly states the official language is Malay (in English, it is stated in Malay, and in the Malay version, Bahasa Melayu). I agree with Gringo. Somebody took the phrase Bahasa Malaysia too literally with no appreciation of the nuance behind it. I suggest a merge with the page Malay language. 219.92.244.123 (talk) 02:36, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's true that we don't really need an article on the national language of Malaysia, and could sum it up in a section in the Malay language article, but we thought it would be nice to give Malaysia parity with Indonesia, since Indonesian has a separate article. — kwami (talk) 07:55, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I came to this talk page for this exact reason. In Malaysia, we almost never refer to the language as "Malaysian". If you did so, most Malaysians would ask you exactly which language you meant. I would like to add support that this page be changed to a redirect to or merged with the Malay language page. 128.138.64.221 (talk) 18:56, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in Malaysian language

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I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Malaysian language's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "History":

  • From Languages of Malaysia: Andaya, Barbara Watson; Andaya, Leonard Y. (1982). A History of Malaysia. London: MacMillan Press Ltd. p. 278. ISBN 0-333-27672-8.
  • From Malaysia: Andaya, Barbara Watson; Andaya, Leonard Y. (1982). A History of Malaysia. MacMillan Press Ltd. pp. 26–28, 61, 151–152, 242–243, 254–256, 274, 278. ISBN 0-333-27672-8.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 16:51, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Malaysian languages

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is a language spoken by Malaysian, Malaysian are clearly consist of 50% malay, 10% other native, 25% chinese , 10% indian , and 5% are consider as other. This is what we call Malaysian, and Malaysian language is consisting of What Malaysian speak daily, for example there are Dayak community in Sarawak, Kadazan Community in Sabah, Chinese community in Malaysia and other, these are Malaysian Languages. It doesnt not make any sense if you are telling me we speak American language whereby consisting of English, french, spanish and etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Captain2123 (talk • contribs) 13:39, 23 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Singapore and Brunei standards

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Do Singapore and Brunei use the same standard language as Malaysia? Their flags were removed from the info box. I know all three countries call their official language "Malay", but that doesn't tell us whether they use the same standard or not. — kwami (talk) 20:37, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is same standard Malayan Law (talk) 05:54, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Merge

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"Malaysian" is not officially a language. The official language and national language of Malaysia is "Malay". It is like saying Australians speak English and Austrians speak German. Euanjohnb (talk) 21:27, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I can't seem to grasp your point. The terms "Malaysian" and "bahasa Malaysia" are used to refer to the form of Malay used in Malaysia, just the same way as "Indonesian" refers to the Indonesian standard (and regional Indonesian dialects). This has already been discussed here. What is "officially" considered a language seems barely relevant here. Nama.Asal (talk) 22:23, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Short description

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The current short description is "Official language of Malaysia; standardized register of the Malacca dialect of Malay" (84 characters). This is too long: the guidance for short descriptions is that they be limited to 40 characters. I propose we shorten it to just "Official language of Malaysia" (29 characters). --Pakbelang (talk) 09:12, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good, 84 is far more than "slightly exceeded if necessary". CMD (talk) 09:18, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Name

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Please change this article to "Malaysian Malay language". That language never said Malaysian language but is say Malaysian Malay or only Malay. Do you know brunei also using this standard Nazran225 (talk) 14:53, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There are a few different sources in the article which show "Malaysian language" is used. CMD (talk) 15:16, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Move

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I think this page must change name to standard malay because ISO369-3 code for zsm it say "standard malay"(Bahasa Melayu standard/moden) not "Malaysian"(bahasa malaysia). This is because malaysia can't change official languege to "malaysian langueage" why? because Malaysia constitution it say Bahasa Melayu not Bahasa Malaysia. Do you know this standard also use at Brunei as official langueage & Brunei Malay for local dialect. I hope you know Malaysia is not same like Indonesia & Philippines for official languege Malayan Law 07:45, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have undone your page move. Please provide sources to justify the move. Pakbelang (talk) 02:02, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Move page

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I move this page to standard malay using same name using at ISO https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/zsm Malayan Law (talk) 11:08, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please see Wikipedia:Article titles, which has our policies on article naming. There's a few considerations involved that might lead to different conclusions, but we do not simply follow the ISO or any particular other organisation. CMD (talk) 23:51, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. The term "Standard Malay" is distinct from "Malaysian language". "Standard Malay" also applies to the official Malay used in Singapore and Brunei. Pakbelang (talk) 02:13, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Definition of "korang"

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I believe "korang" should be defined as the plural form of "you", as in "you guys" or "you all", instead of the exclusive "us" as it's currently defined. I tried changing the definition before, but it was quickly reverted.

  • This monolingual Malay dictionary says "kau orang" (which "korang" is derived from) is used "in place of 'you all'". Also, the article explains that "korang" colloquially replaces "kamu semua" and "kalian", and since the latter two pronouns mean "you all", shouldn't "korang" mean "you all" as well?
  • The article says "korang" is a combination of "kau" (singular second-person pronoun from "engkau") and "orang" (making singular "kau" plural), which logically makes "korang" a second-person plural pronoun, right?
  • The article also says "korang" is the colloquial exclusive "us", while "kitorang" is the colloquial exclusive "we". To my knowledge, though, Malay pronouns don't inflect for case, so doesn't "kitorang" stand for both "we" and "us"?

Manong Kimi (talk) 04:36, 11 March 2022 (UTC)Manong Kimi[reply]

@Manong Kimi Please provide a source. Pakbelang (talk) 05:44, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Bahasa Malaysia

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@Chipmunkdavis:, @Nazran225:, @Euanjohnb:, @Malayan Law:, I propose we move this article to Bahasa Malaysia. This meets the five article-naming criteria as follows:

  • Recognizability & naturalness – The usage of "Bahasa Malaysia" in English can be seen in Google Scholar articles (280,000 results) and also in Google Books.
  • Precision – The term "Bahasa Malaysia" is clear and is distinguished from the Malay language article.
  • Concision – The term "Bahasa Malaysia" is more concise than, for example, "Standard Malay (Malaysia)".
  • Consistency – The term is not consistent with the name of the Indonesian language article. However, this is due to the fact that the Indonesian language is often referred to as simply "Indonesian". "Bahasa Malaysia" is never referred to as simply "Malaysian".

--Pakbelang (talk) 07:55, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly a term used in English. It seems as precise and concise as the current title, and likely as recognizable. This may outweigh potential concerns about naturalness (to those unfamiliar with the language) and consistency. @Austronesier and Kwamikagami:, who have inputted before in past conversations, in case they have input here. CMD (talk) 05:40, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Either one works, but Bahasa is hardly more concise. Also, contrary to pakbelang's claim that it's "never" called Malaysian, a quick search of Gbooks finds plenty of cases where it is, including a book titled "Learn Malaysian by Association". Bahasa does seem to be more common, though. — kwami (talk) 05:54, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Kwamikagami True "Bahasa Malaysia" is not more concise than "Malaysian language". Also true Gbooks shows I should never say "never"! Pakbelang (talk) 06:01, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The naming of this article is a perennial problem and not easy to solve. Most commonly and also officially, the national language of Malaysia is simply called "Malay", but since we – IMO correctly – use "Malay" in a broad sense in Wikipedia, we need a disambiguated or different title. "Standard Malay" could be an option, but then, very often "Standard Malay" is used to encompass to all conventional or standardized varieties that have emerged from the Riau-Johore literary language (including Indonesian). "Standard Malay (Malaysia)" is in many respects ideal and my personal favorite, but this violates naming conventions since we have no article called "Standard Malay" without disambiguator: the topic "Standard Malay" is part of our broader article Malay language.
So Malaysian language / Bahasa Malaysia are the choices we're left with (I don't worry too much about Malay as being used in Singapore and Brunei, as the standard there leans on the Malaysian standard; this standard has been shaped and developed by the Malaysian Dewan Bahasa, and the two other countries are basically freeloading on the efforts of the Dewan Bahasa). And yes, "Bahasa Malaysia" is more common in English texts than the rarely heard "Malaysian language". Naturally, the latter is awfully hard to search for.
Maybe we should try a formal RM to see how editors without ties to the region feel about the non-English title. –Austronesier (talk) 10:54, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Austronesier, thanks for the feedback. I'll initiate the RM as suggested. Pakbelang (talk) 14:58, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 17 May 2022

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. No consensus for Bahasa Malaysia or any of the other alternatives at this point. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 13:31, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Malaysian language → Bahasa Malaysia – Aligns better with actual English usage (the usage of "Bahasa Malaysia" in English: Google Scholar articles (280,000 results) and also in Google Books). There are hardly any references to "Malaysian" as a language. Pakbelang (talk) 15:00, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Languages has been notified of this discussion. CMD (talk) 02:50, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Malaysia has been notified of this discussion. CMD (talk) 02:50, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment that count includes Malay-language sources. I count a 5-to-1 ratio in favor of Bahasa in English sources, though that's a raw count without evaluation of how the phrases are used. — kwami (talk) 03:04, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Valid point. Google Scholar has thousands of hits for phrases such as "in Bahasa Malaysia" and "Bahasa Malaysia and" give thousands of hits[1] Pakbelang (talk) 08:24, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: direct comparison of phrases in Google Scholar that filter for English-language sources and (at least partially) ensure that "Malaysian" refers to the language:
    • "speak Bahasa Malaysia": 238 counts[2]
    • "speak Malaysian": 78 counts[3] (including 31 false positives with "speak Malaysian English" [4])
But then, "speak Malay"+"Malaysia" yields 2.300 hits, so I am still hesitant to support the second-best solution (Bahasa Malaysia) over the third-best solution (Malaysian language), when the best page title should refer to the language as "Malay" with proper disambiguation. But admittedly I have no good idea what this disambiguation should look like (see preceding discussion). –Austronesier (talk) 08:56, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The problem is that the English-speaking world calls the language Malay without indulging in, or even being aware of, the fact that the official language of Malaysia and the official language of Indonesia are basically one language, and that Wikipedia takes the pedantic stance on that, using Malay language to discuss the overarching common language. That leaves Wikipedia needing a different term for the article on Malaysia-specific details, leaving us with a choice between the term in use, Malaysian language, and the Malay name for the language, Bahasa Malaysia, to handle the disambiguation—neither term being use very often at all by English speakers in comparison with "Malay". It might make more sense to move the encompassing article to Malay-Indonesian (reversing the existing redirect) and use Malay language for this one.
Alternatively, if "Malay" is to be left referring to the encompassing language, then maybe this one should be Malay language in Malaysia or Malay language (Malaysia). I think either is better than Bahasa Malaysia. Largoplazo (talk) 10:24, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
One concern with those names is that there are multiple varieties of Malay in use in Malaysia, although perhaps such ambiguity can be quickly cleared up in the lead. (The English speaking world has many problems in this area, for example Brunei Malay which is not the official Malay of Brunei. That page uses "Standard Malay" to refer to the topic of this page, although the Standard Malay redirect currently points to the broader Malay language article. Perhaps this RM will also bring some ideas for that redirect.) CMD (talk) 11:12, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Malay language in Malaysia or Malay language (Malaysia) are as precise as Bahasa Malaysia but they are not as concise. Malay language (Malaysia) is not as recognisable or natural. Incidentally, the Malay Wikipedia uses "Bahasa Melayu Malaysia" (i.e. Malaysian Malay language). That was one of the titles that @Malayan Law proposed, along with Standard Malay (Malaysian). Bahasa Malaysia beats all of these titles in terms of concision & naturalness. The Google scholar references cited above suggest that Bahasa Malaysia is not as recognisable as "Malay". However, it is more recognisable than any of these other terms. Pakbelang (talk) 14:41, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I like @Largoplazo's suggestion Malay language (Malaysia), even though it bears some ambiguity since it could also include the non-standard Malay varieties in Malaysia. But this could be clarified in the opening lede sentence, as @CMD has said.
Bahasa Malaysia is however more concise & natural, so @Pakbelang has a good point here.
Malay language is out of question for this topic, since there are multiple Malay varieties in Indonesia which actually go by the name "Malay" (unlike standard Indonesian, which is almost never called "Malay" in Indonesia, and rarely so outside of Indonesia except in linguistic contexts), and another three varieties in Brunei. –Austronesier (talk) 15:13, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 3 June 2022

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Result:
Moved per consensus garnered below. Thanks and kudos to editors for your input; good health to all! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'r there 02:05, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Malaysian language → Malaysian Malay – WP:CONSISTENT with Malaysian English, Malaysian Mandarin, British English, and Mandarin Chinese. Showiecz (talk) 02:07, 2 June 2022 (UTC) – recycle Reopened. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'r there 16:46, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note There is a concurrent move request at Talk:Malaysian Malay#Requested move 24 May 2022. CMD (talk) 02:31, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Closed as moved, which leaves the "Malaysian Malay" redirect available for this discussion. Many backlinks may need to be fixed if this proposal is approved. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'r there 16:46, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The proposal is not a perfect fit for the article. However, the article would fit in a section entitled Bahasa Malaysia. There are other non-standard dialects of Malaysian Malay that can be covered by the article. Pakbelang (talk) 13:58, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. As it's consistent with most of other Malay languages' article such as Brunei Malay, Jambi Malay, Kedah Malay, Kelantan-Pattani Malay, and etc. Ckfasdf (talk) 14:53, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Malay can refer to a person or possessive adjective, there's no indication this is an article about a language. "Malaysian Malay" would not be recognizable nor helpful to most Wikipedia readers. The point of comparison for this article title was "Malaysian language" and "Indonesian language". Current title should be kept. Walrasiad (talk) 07:15, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom, also WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONSISTENCY. It has become sufficiently clear in the preceding discussion that the current title is rarely used in texts. The national language of Malaysia is generally called "Malay" by its speakers and the rest of the world. Since Malay language can also refer to a broader range of standardized and dialectal varieties including e.g. Indonesian and dozens of regional dialects, Malaysian Malay is a good and concise way of disambiguation (clumsier alternatives were considered in the preceding discussion: Malay language in Malaysia or Malay language (Malaysia)). As mentioned my comment to the preceding !vote, this is also consistent with hundreds of other language articles.
    A small caveat: "Malaysian Malay" might be mistaken as a broad article for all varieties of Malay in Malaysia (thus also including regional dialects), but we can easily clear this up in the opening lede sentence (e.g. "Malaysian Malay is the a standardized variety of the Malay language and the national language of Malaysia"). –Austronesier (talk) 08:51, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support While "Malay" is clearly a more WP:COMMONNAME for the subject than "Malaysian", that term itself may also refer to the language the subject is a variety of. "Malaysian Malay" thus serves as WP:NATURALDAB. Nardog (talk) 20:37, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. @Paine Ellsworth: According to the Federal Constitution of Malaysia Article 152, the official language of Malaysia is "Malay language", there is no such thing as "Malaysian language" in reality. Furthermore, the "zsm" ISO language code is actually for 'Standard Malay', which is a standardized version of Malay language that started and used in Riau (Indonesia). We have to stick to the reality (factual laws, regulation, etc.), not delusional things. In Brunei, the official language also Malay language according to the Constitution of Brunei Darussalam, hence there's Brunei Malay article about it. So 'Malaysian Malay' is the correct or proper one. (Lingmatian (talk) 08:21, 8 June 2022 (UTC))[reply]
    • The standard that is the topic of this article is roughly the same as the standard of Brunei. The Brunei Malay article is about the colloquial, unofficial dialect centred around Bandar Seri Begawan, not the formal standard. This is an additional wrinkle for the naming of this article, but it is an issue that exists for both the current and the proposed name so I don't think it significantly impacts this move request. CMD (talk) 09:24, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      The change to "Malaysian Malay" will open the door to creating an umberella article for all types of Malay spoken in Malaysia. As per my initial response to this proposal, "Bahasa Malaysia" or "Standard Malay" can be a sub-section in the new article. Pakbelang (talk) 12:55, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Not following this statement. Such an article can be created any time, no matter what title this article has. CMD (talk) 15:32, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Articles about all Malay dialects spoken in Malaysia already created on Wikipedia. You can't push your POV to emphasize that 'Malaysian Malay' is the only standardized variety of Malay language, because the 'Standard Malay' used in Brunei, Indonesia, Singapore, and Malaysia are different to one another (each countries developed their own spellings, vocabulary and grammars on how Standard Malay used). In the article of Standard English, it reflects all regulated English dialects that used in several countries; American English, Scottish English, Welsh English, British English, Singaporean English, Malaysian English, etc. So to distinguish them, there has to be differentiation between 'Standard Malay' and 'Malaysian Malay'. Furthermore, 'Bahasa Malaysia' is ridiculous proposal because this is English Wikipedia, it means you wanna remodel all of languages based on how the way you like it, 'Lingua Español' isn't the English name for Spanish language, and 'Lingua' itself isn't only used for Spanish, but also Portuguese, Galician, Italian, Latin, Sicilian, etc. (Lingmatian (talk) 17:02, 8 June 2022 (UTC))[reply]
      Obviously, your comments "Bahasa Malaysia" are off-topic, but as you can see from the previous discussion, the proposal was not "ridiculous", but well-argued and based on sources in English(!); the fact that the Malaysian Constitution does not use the term doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Make yourself familiar with the basic policies of WP before belittling other users' contributions (see also the right column in the first box of the welcome message in your user talk page. –Austronesier (talk) 18:03, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. It makes little sense when this language is just a dialect/form of Malay - could lead to much confusion between "malay language" and "malaysian language" - which makes them seem entirely separate. Might I also suggest renaming Indonesian language to "Indonesian Malay" to fit with this as well. Stan traynor (talk) 07:50, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For Indonesian language, it is different case, there is a language called Indonesian, don't get confused between Indonesian and Malay, Indonesian (with the ISO language code: id) is different than Malay (with the ISO language code: ms). I am the native speaker of both languages, Indonesian and Malay is like Spanish to Portuguese or Serbian to Russian, both similar but different. (Lingmatian (talk) 10:16, 9 June 2022 (UTC))[reply]
fair, but this article says that Malaysian is "the standardized form of Malay language used in Malaysia" while the Indonesian language article says that "It [the Indonesian language] is a standardized variety of Malay". So I assumed they were the same sort of thing - thanks for clearing it up! Stan traynor (talk) 17:07, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Stan traynor: Your impression is broadly correct, see Comparison of Indonesian and Standard Malay, which also explains why Indonesian is generally not referred to as Malay in casual conversation. CMD (talk) 17:33, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Indonesian and Malay is like Spanish to Portuguese or Serbian to Russian, both similar but different. With some comments it's hard to resist to answer: modern Standard Malay was chosen to become Indonesian less than 100 years ago, and the two haven't significantly diverged except in their vocabulary. The last common ancestor of Spanish and Portuguese, and Serbian and Russian each dates back to more than 1000 years, and this is also reflected in the much bigger differences between the languages of each pair. –Austronesier (talk) 18:49, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't know how to talking about this debate. I am Malaysian & I also Malay. Why not reboot this article to be same like Arabic & Modern Standard Arabic, do you guys know this standard also using at Brunei & Singapore. So I think we need to make article about Malay language, Standard Malay & Indonesian language.

°Malay language- we talking about how this language using in the world, language accents, and version standard.
°Malaysian language move to Standard Malay because this standard also using at Brunei & Singapore- so this article about standard version language using at 3 country. And they Constitution also same said "Malay" as official language
°Indonesian language- article for standard version of Malay using at indonesia as official language and name.

-Malayan (talk) 18:52, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Standard version

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I think we must add flag of Singapore and Brunei because they also using this same standard. Malaysia, Singapore & Brunei they using same grammar and spoke as official language Malayan Law (talk) 05:53, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's my impression as well, but this would need to be added to the body with sources to get into the infobox. On Brunei, a few days ago I found this source which says "it is almost identical with Peninsular Standard Malay, but with identifiable "Bruneiization" on all linguistic levels", and this source indicates there are some differences (if anyone has access a close look at that source is probably warranted). CMD (talk) 06:03, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

you can hear the standard Malay speech used in Brunei as in television news is the same as Malaysia. It hard to make source because Brunei is small country & not famous like Singapore Malayan Law (talk) 06:27, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I found the two sources above quite fast, I'm sure there are more out there. CMD (talk) 06:41, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So I add Brunei & Singapore now Malayan Law (talk) 09:34, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Could you share the WP:RS on this? CMD (talk) 13:11, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Can we make constitution of three country about this for source?Malayan Law (talk) 13:15, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I dont think so... since constitutions of those countries only mention "Bahasa Melayu" (Malay Language) without any mention that the Standard Malay spoken in Malaysia, Brunei and Singapore are the using the same standard. Ckfasdf (talk) 07:23, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please read WP:Reliable sources, which has more information on what should be used when. CMD (talk) 08:15, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know how to said but 3 country using same grammar. That why Malay Standard version have 2 it is Indonesian and Malay (Standard) Malayan Law (talk) 21:23, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
refer to this publication, The Standard Malay spoken in Brunei seems to be in an intermediary position, in many ways similar to Indonesian in its pronunciation and grammar, but more like Peninsular varieties in its lexis. So, it seems there is slight difference between Standard Malay in Brunei and Malaysia. Ckfasdf (talk) 13:43, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bahasa Melayu (Standard Malay) and Bahasa Malaysia (Malaysian language)

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In Malaysia we don't call Bahasa Melayu Malaysia. We call Bahasa Melayu (Malay language) or Bahasa Malaysia as opposed to (Bahasa Melayu Malaysia).In fact, Malaysia uses two Malay languages, Standard Malay (Bahasa Melayu Piawai/Bahasa Melayu) and Bahasa Malaysia (Malaysian Language), but the government ignores it. They combine Bahasa Melayu and Bahasa Malaysia. Standard Malay has long been used in the Nusantara, while Bahasa Malaysia was established in 1900.

The development of the Malay language in Malaysia and Indonesia; Malaysia: 1.Bahasa Melayu Johor-Riau (Johor-Riau Malay language/Old Standard Malay) 2.Bahasa Melayu Piawai (Standard Malay) 3.Bahasa Melayu Hindia-Belanda (Dutch-East Malay language) 4.Bahasa Melayu Piawai 5.Bahasa Malaysia (Malaysian language) 6.Bahasa Melayu Piawai and Bahasa Malaysia

Indonesia: 1.Bahasa Melayu Johor-Riau 2.Bahasa Melayu Hindia-Belanda 3.Bahasa Melayu Riau (Riau Malay language) 4.Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian language) 2405:3800:8A0:A545:ADE3:199E:25EB:7124 (talk) 14:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Standard Malay (can we talk about it again?)

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This might have been discussed before but I can’t seem to find the reason why this article is not simply named Standard Malay. Right now Standard Malay redirects to this article. While the speakers from all countries where this language is spoken commonly refer to it as Standard Malay. So may I know what’s stopping us from naming this article Standard Malay? NoNationalisticNo (talk) 20:19, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

On the contrary, speakers from the countries where Malaysian Malay is widely spoken simply call it Malay or Bahasa Melayu. Standard Malay or Bahasa Melayu piawai, rarely.
Bahasa Indonesia is itself a standardised form of the Malay language, so naming this page Standard Malay would make it needlessly confusing for the average reader. Sisuvia (talk) 01:16, 4 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It is rare but not non-existent. I have actually came across some writings from Singapore using the term standard Malay (as opposed to their local Malay dialects or bahasa pasar), will try to recheck & compile if relevant. Other than that, Ethnologue also uses the term Standard Malay for the Malaysian official language. A number of the citations used in this article use the term also, you can easily spot the term usage in their titles.
On the other hand, I have never come across anyone refer to the language as Malaysian Malay. The citation titled Malaysian Malay (linked to Ethnologue website) is not accessible. Bahasa Malaysia yes, Malaysian Malay never, not even among Malaysians. This despite the language is almost solely regulated by the Malaysian Dewan Bahasa & Pustaka.
I agree it is confusing, but is it not more factually correct? NoNationalisticNo (talk) 17:23, 4 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly believe it has been a great mistake to be naming this article Malaysian Malay. Upon doing an internet search I have failed to find anywhere else other than here in Wikipedia that use this made up term ‘Malaysian Malay’. I don’t believe we should be creating our own terms here in Wikipedia, right?
Usage of this term is problematic not only because it is untrue and not used elsewhere, but it also fails to reflect the content of this article, which discusses the standard Malay language used in more than just one country. It does not do justice to the language speakers outside of Malaysia. If one argues that the language is mainly only regulated by Dewan Bahasa & Pustaka of Malaysia (DBP), please show proof that DBP claimed the language they regulate is Malaysian Malay and not simply standard Malay.
This article might have started as a discussion specifically on the Malaysian version of the Malay language, but now it is clear this article discusses ‘Standard Malay’ as is the term used in ISO 639-3, Ethnologue, Glottolog, and countless other academic publications, articles, writings, blog posts, social media posts, everyday conversations, etc. It is gravely unfortunate that this widely-used term only get a redirect page to ‘Malaysian Malay’, a term that nobody uses (if I am mistaken, please provide proof).
As for concerns of supposed confusion with Indonesian being another standard of Malay, I really think it is a non-issue as Indonesian uses another completely distinct name. The differences, and it being another standard of Malay, can easily be addressed in both the Indonesian article & this article.
If there is ever a need to discuss the distinctions of the standard Malay language in Malaysia or any other countries (if any), a dedicated section in this article is more than sufficient. Not the other way round. If some thinks specific national varieties of the language deserve their own articles, I suggest naming them Malaysian Standard Malay, Brunei Standard Malay, etc. (As opposed to simply e.g. Brunei Malay which might discuss local Brunei dialect instead)
Hence, I am planning to move this article to Standard Malay (as per WP:UCRN) if there are no rational objections with valid arguments against it. NoNationalisticNo (talk) 21:50, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You'll have to initiate an RM to overturn the 2022 RMs. CMD (talk) 01:21, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Removed non-neutral comparative clause from lead

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I’m removing the phrase "as opposed to the variety used in Indonesia, which is referred to as Indonesian" from the lead section.

This edit is based on the following reasons:

  1. Non-neutral phrasing: The expression “as opposed to” suggests contrast or opposition, which violates WP:NPOV. Standard Malay and Indonesian are closely related standardized varieties, not opposing entities. While @Sisuvia claims it’s "just a turn of phrase," "as opposed to" inherently sets up a contrast or opposition.
  2. Undue comparison in the lead: Per WP:LEAD, the lead should summarize the topic clearly without overloading it with comparisons or side details. The lead is already clear that it's referring to Standard Malay as used in Malaysia, Singapore, and Brunei. Adding “as opposed to the variety used in Indonesia…” in the lead overcomplicates things and drags in comparative linguistics prematurely. The distinction between Malay and Indonesian belongs in the body of the article, where it can be properly contextualized.
  3. Inconsistency with related article: The Indonesian language article does not include a similar mention of Standard Malay in its lead. This creates an imbalance between the two entries and further supports the case for removal.

If there are concerns or disagreement with this change, I suggest discussing it here before restoring the sentence. Thanks. NoNationalisticNo (talk) 13:45, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@User:NoNationalisticNo Firstly, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who agrees with you that the use of "as opposed to" here violates NPOV, and setting up a "contrast" is not inherently bad. Secondly, the keyword is overloading. One instance of comparison does not equate to overloading. You think it "overcomplicates" the lede? I don't. The lede also exists as an introduction and a summary of the article's points. If you were to include the distinction between Standard Malay and Indonesian in the body, you'd still have to mention it in the lede where it supposedly can't be "properly contextualised". Thirdly, please let me know where it is stated in Wikipedia that Article X must mention Article Y for the inverse to be true.
Clearly, there are concerns and disagreement with the change, but instead of bringing it to the talk page first, you have gone and enacted it anyways. Sisuvia (talk) 14:48, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The two standards are in contrast, they are different standards. I don't see how that is something affecting neutrality. It's also hardly detailed comparative linguistics, it's a statement noting the closest similar standard, which seems quite relevant for the lead. The Indonesian language lead does not seem a well-crafted model. CMD (talk) 15:56, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Your first and third points are non-issues. "As opposed to" is neutral. A statement like "As opposed to/in contrast to most other metals, mercury is a liquid at normal ambient temperatures" conveys no bias for or against mercury. Inconsistency between the two articles is irrelevant; one can just as easily suggest that the wording you're objecting should be added to the article on Indonesian; but either way it isn't necessary as there's no reason why the two articles about such strikingly similar varieties have to be written the same way.
Your second point is fair. It wouldn't agonize me if this mention were kept, but unless there's some other reason as well to bring up Indonesian in the lead, it's extraneous and it would be better not to mention it. Look at the intro to French language: ... is a Romance language of the Indo-European family. Like all other Romance languages, it descended from the Vulgar Latin of the Roman Empire. No need to mention that it is one Romance language as opposed to Spanish, Italian, Romanian, etc. Largoplazo (talk) 16:11, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
French is a very different situation, as it is not about a particular standard. A better comparison might by Hindi/Urdu, where mutual intelligibility is covered in the lead, or Brazilian Portuguese/European Portuguese, which mention the other standard in the lead. CMD (talk) 16:28, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Indonesian and Standard Malay do not just share a common ancestor/belong to the same linguistic family, but are standardised forms of the Malay language that developed concurrently. Not really comparable, I don't think. Sisuvia (talk) 00:58, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter what the set or the two members of the set are, whether one is comparing standard poodles with toy poodles or determinate tomatoes with indeterminate tomatoes or VHS video cartridges with Sony video cartridges or ASCII with EBCDIC. "Being two standard versions of the same linguistic family" isn't qualitatively different from any other case where two things that differ from each other in some manner are, nevertheless, members in common of a set. The argument is equally applicable. Largoplazo (talk) 12:26, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks everyone for the replies. I appreciate the perspectives but here's my position on the key points raised:
On neutrality and tone - I understand many see “as opposed to” as a neutral phrase, and in many cases it is. It is not factually wrong, but it subtly sets up an adversarial or binary relationship, which isn’t encyclopedic in tone. Neutral language is about describing, not framing. The phrase currently subtly frames the varieties as oppositional rather than merely distinct. A more neutral tone would better reflect that relationship.
On relevance and necessity in the lead - Personally, I don't believe the reference to Indonesian is essential in the lead. It seems more appropriate for the body of the article. Per WP:LEAD, what I understood is that the lead should summarize the article without overloading or diverting the focus. Mentioning Indonesian too early risks shifting the focus before readers fully understand what Standard Malay is. Let’s first define the subject clearly in the lead, then offer comparison afterward.
Although I can see the argument for including a comparison in cases like Brazilian/European Portuguese as pointed out by @Chipmunkdavis, where the name of the language is the same and clarification is helpful early on to avoid confusion. That seems functionally necessary for readers. However, Standard Malay and Indonesian already have clearly distinct names. There's no ambiguity in identity, so the comparison feels less urgent to place in the lead. As for the Hindi/Urdu example, I’m not entirely convinced it's an ideal model.
As @Largoplazo pointed out, the comparison may not be necessary unless it's central to the topic being introduced. That’s why I suggest we ask: Is the Indonesian comparison essential to understanding what Standard Malay is? I believe the answer is no.
On @Sisuvia's points "The lede also exists as an introduction and a summary of the article's points. If you were to include the distinction between Standard Malay and Indonesian in the body, you'd still have to mention it in the lede where it supposedly can't be "properly contextualised"." - Firstly, I agree that the lead should summarize key aspects of the article. However, at present, there is no further elaboration in the body about the comparison with Indonesian. Secondly, as it stands, the lead already states that Standard Malay is a standardized form of Malay, which is sufficient for an introductory overview for the comparison with another standardized form.
On symmetry between articles - @Sisuvia, I'm not suggesting every article must mirror another, but pointing out inconsistency to question whether this distinction is truly central to the subject or if it's being overstated.
I acknowledge that I was bold with the initial removal. Perhaps should have started here but I followed WP:BOLD in good faith, with the intent of refining tone. NoNationalisticNo (talk) 14:12, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You asked for feedback from others regarding, among other things, your notion that "as opposed to" is an NPOV violation. All three people who commented on that disagreed with you. Your conclusion is that you don't care what anyone else thinks, we're gonna go with your way of looking at it, now going so far as to say it's "adversarial". Largoplazo (talk) 14:29, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry if I seem insistent on what might feel like a minor or even non-issue. I’m not trying to force anyone to agree with me, I just want to raise my concerns clearly.
I’d like to clarify that my concern goes beyond just the phrasing of “as opposed to”. The deeper issue is how the article currently frames Standard Malay as if it's solely a Malaysian counterpart to Indonesian when in fact, it is also used across several countries, and is based on a long-shared linguistic tradition.
By immediately contrasting it with Indonesian in the lead using the current phrasing, the article gives the impression of a Malaysia vs Indonesia dichotomy, as if these are two opposing or competing standards. That framing isn’t accurate and risks nationalizing a linguistic issue that’s more nuanced.
Also, I’ve long felt that the article title “Malaysian Malay” is itself problematic. (See previous discussion topic) It’s not a commonly used term in actual discourse or reliable sources. It appears to be a Wikipedia-invented term, which possibly goes against WP:UCRN and possibly WP:OR.
So this is less about a single sentence and more about how we present the subject as a whole. I’m not opposed to comparisons being made, I just believe they should be presented in a more descriptive, 'as-is', neutral, and well-contextualized way.
I'm advocating for a more regionally accurate and less nationalistic framing of Malay and ensuring that the article reflects usage in reliable sources, not editorial invention. NoNationalisticNo (talk) 16:35, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
No it does not, the part in question immediately follows mentions of Singapore and Brunei. CMD (talk) 01:49, 24 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Well it does. Phrasing like “...used in Malaysia and also used in Singapore and Brunei” frames Malaysia as the primary user, as if Singapore and Brunei are merely secondary users. The article is overly Malaysia-centric, even though the language isn’t exclusive to Malaysia. The last sentence of the lead, “It is spoken by much of the Malaysian population...” drops any mention of other countries altogether. That’s why the “as opposed to” phrasing reinforces a Malaysia vs Indonesia framing.
But let’s not get into too many issues at once. For now, I suggest we just focus on the “as opposed to” phrase. My suggestion: remove the comparison from the lead. I initially thought we could compromise with a more neutral rephrasing like “...used in Brunei, Malaysia, and Singapore. A different standardized variety exists in Indonesia, known as Indonesian.” But that feels even more abrupt and out of place, which reinforces the point that the comparison doesn’t belong in the lead at all. NoNationalisticNo (talk) 08:26, 24 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's Malaysia that defined the standard. So, yes, it's Malaysia's standard, which Singapore and Brunei have also subscribed to.
Why are you fighting as though your life depended on it to convince the rest of us that the current text is conveying some sort of frightful bias, and as though you'll be horrified if agreement to remove the Indonesian mention is reached based on point 2 while disregarding point 1. If no one can convince you otherwise on point 1, at least put an end to your harangue to convince us of it because if the mention is removed on account of point 2, at least it will have been removed. Largoplazo (talk) 10:52, 24 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I just want to clarify that I'm not trying to harangue or push an agenda, I'm simply sharing my perspective in good faith. My intention throughout has been to highlight how certain phrasings might unintentionally frame the topic in a nationalistic light. At this point, I’m content if the mention is removed on the basis of point 2, regardless of differing views on point 1. I appreciate the discussion and everyone's input. NoNationalisticNo (talk) 15:00, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Standard Malay is not Malaysian language!

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Standard Malay is used in Malaysia, Brunei and Singapore officially. In southern Thailand it is used by a minority group. Standard Malay is also understood by the Malay ethnic group in Southeast Asia. Standard Malay is a continuation of Classical Malay during the time of the Malacca sultanate to the Johor sultanate. It was renamed twice, namely Classical Malay, Johor-Riau language, then Standard Malay. Standard Malay is a continuation of Classical Malay during the time of the Malacca sultanate to the Johor sultanate. It was renamed twice, namely Classical Malay, Johor-Riau language, then Standard Malay. Bahasa Malaysia cannot be mixed in Standard Malay because. Bahasa Malaysia uses the words kita orang / dia orang, this word cannot be written in Standard Malay it is a grammatical error! Although the Malaysian government once changed the name of Standard Malay to Bahasa Malaysia but it has been changed back to Standard Malay because it contradicts ideology & language. Before it gets confusing, let me explain the origin of Standard Malay. Standard Malay began during the Sultanate of Malacca, it was a literary language/grammar form called Classical Malay using Jawi script. After the fall of the Sultanate of Malacca, it shifted to the Sultanate of Johor-Riau/old Sultanate of Johor, Classical Malay was renamed Johor-Riau language, also using Jawi script. During this period, the Johor-Riau area produced various dialects, namely Johor-Riau dialects, which were not literary languages, for example, the areas of Perak, Pahang, Melaka, Johor, Singapore, Riau, Riau Islands, Daik Lingga Islands and Bangka Belitung Islands. Johor-Riau language = Standard Language. Used in Southeast Asia/Malay World. Johor-Riau dialects = dialects of each area of Johor-Riau. After the British and the Dutch drew the border. The Malayan area still used Johor-Riau language as literature.But after the fall of the Johor-Riau Sultanate, it was replaced by the Modern Johor Sultanate. At this time, the Roman script was introduced and the Jawi script was still used. Meanwhile, in the Dutch colony, they restricted the language and the arrival of the Javanese. The area in the Riau Islands adopted the Riau dialect as the Standard Language, for example Raja Ali Haji Fisabilillah. After independence. Malaysia changed the name of the Johor-Riau language to Standard Malay. This language is also used in Singapore and Brunei. Meanwhile in Indonesia, after the arrival of the Javanese in each Indonesian archipelago, the Riau language was processed into Indonesian language. The story goes back to the creation of Bahasa Malaysia. Bahasa Malaysia was created after independence. This language is a fragment of the Johor-Riau dialects in Malaya. The words "kita orang/dia orang/korang" come from Malaysia . The words kita orang (we all), dia orang/korang (you guys) are only used in Malaya, Singapore and the Riau Islands. Singapore and Riau Islands are close to Malaya. Bahasa Malaysia is very famous in the Upin-Ipin animation. English = We. Standard Malay = Kami/Kita. Malaysian = Kami/Kita English = We all. Standard Malay = Kami semua/Kita semua. Malaysian = Kita orang. If you want to write about Bahasa Malaysia, you have to do it on another page. This page is about Standard Malay, which is the ZSM code. Bahasa Malaysia must have its own code and cannot be mixed. Ahmad Shazlan (talk) 01:49, 10 June 2025 (UTC) edited[reply]

The problem with this terminology as expressed in the RMs is that there are other standards of Malay, so the term may mislead unfamiliar readers. CMD (talk) 01:59, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Standard Malay (Bahasa Melayu Piawai) is used in Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei. Are there many standard forms of Malay language? So far there are two standard forms of Malay language, namely Standard Malay and Bahasa Indonesia. Bahasa Malaysia has not officially been made a standard form. Meanwhile, Brunei has not officially recognized Standard Malay Brunei. Brunei also has Brunei Malay as a dialect. Also in Singapore the same. Ahmad Shazlan (talk) 09:28, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Standards Malay vs Malaysian language

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Bahasa Malaysia is a dialect spoken in Malaysia. While Standard Malay is a written language. Bahasa Malaysia cannot be mixed with Standard Malay.

Malaysia: Standard Malay is the national language, Bahasa Malaysia is not official.

Brunei: Standard Malay is the national language, Brunei Malay is official. Brunei Standard Malay is not official.

Singapore: Standard Malay is the national language, Singapore Malay is not official. Singapore Standard Malay is not official.

Ahmad Shazlan (talk) 13:21, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide WP:Reliable sources for this spoken/written distinction. CMD (talk) 13:44, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't use new threads to repeat the same issue. Largoplazo (talk) 16:06, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Who has the idea to put the title Malaysian Malay?

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In Malaysia there are only two Malay languages to communicate namely Stansard Malay/Bahasa Melayu and Bahasa Malaysia Malaysian language. There is no term for Malaysian Malay. Standard Malay is the national and official language in Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei and minoriti in southern Thailand. While Bahasa Malaysia/Malaysian language is not official in Malaysia. Ahmad Shazlan (talk) 15:37, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's at the current title because of the move discussion of 3 June 2022, above, which you should read for the answer to your question. Kindly do not pursue this any further in this thread as you have already begun two other threads on this topic. Repeating yourself won't help you persuade anyone. Please stick with the first one. Largoplazo (talk) 16:26, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Bahasa Johor-Riau / Johor-Riau languange vs Dialek-dialek Johor-Riau/Johor-Riau dialects vs Modern Standard Malay Languange

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Johor-Riau languange is a pre-modern language. Johor-Riau uses Standard Malay script/Tulisan Bahasa Melayu Baku but intonation and pronunciation using Johor-Riau dialects. Johor-Riau uses Jawi script & Roman script. The differences between Johor-Riau and Johor-Riau dialects are as follows:

Johor-Riau languange uses Jawi script and Roman script in the form of Standard Malay script/Tulisan Bahasa Melayu Baku but pronunciation using Johor-Riau dialects.

Johor-Riau dialects only use Roman script with Johor-Riau dialect pronunciation. 

Modern Standard Malay produces two languages, namely Standard Malay languange/Bahasa Melayu Piawai & Indonesian languange/Bahasa Indonesia.

Standard Malay/Bahasa Melayu Piawai is a continuation of Johor-Riau. Standard Malay also uses Standard Malay script/Tulisan Bahasa Melayu Baku, Jawi script and Roman script but uses Johor-Riau dialect pronunciation. 

Indonesian languange/Bahasa Indonesia uses tulisan Bahasa Melayu Baku/Standard Malay script and Roman script and uses Bahasa Baku intonation and pronunciation.

There is no term Bahasa Malaysia!

Baku means Standard. This term refers to writing and pronunciation.

Piawai also means Standard. This term is more specific.

Example: Bahasa Melayu Baku Moden/Modern Standard Malay.

  • Mana/ Where = Bahasa Melayu Baku/standard language form.
  • Mane E pepet = Johor-Riau dialects/dialek-dialek Johor-Riau.
  • Mano = Malay + Minang dialects such as Negeri Sembilan and Riau.
  • Mane E taling = Betawi, Sulawesi and Maluku dialects.

Ahmad Shazlan (talk) 05:50, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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