Talk:Layer cake

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Merge from Torte

The articles seem to discuss the same concept (a layered cake). Torte has more interwikis, but very few overlap: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3356613 , https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q130186 . Torte is defined as a "rich, usually multilayered, cake". On Commons, torte is a subcategory to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Layered_cakes . Unless we can identify a clear distinction, a merge may be warranted. Maybe not all torts are layered? (And in this case, maybe Commons categorization is wrong...). As for our categorization, on en wiki, torte is just an entry under Category:Cakes while there is also a separate category for Category:Layered cakes. Lastly, neither article discusses what, if any, differences exist between tortes and layered cakes. The latter just list torte under see also; for the former, I linked layered cake from the relevant word in its lead. Sigh. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:26, 17 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder why torte claims that it is "usually multilayered", as some famous tortes are single layer. Looking around, this magazine says tortes are flourless (using ground nuts or breadcrumbs). This Food52 blog post covers a lot of territory. The Diner’s Dictionary from OUP says a torte is "A German term (borrowed from Italian) for a fairly elaborate sweet cake—roughly equivalent to French gâteau" – nothing about layers.

The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets has a solid entry on the subject, differentiating the Torte from Kuchen (more like a snack cake), the American layer cake (has more "sweet icing"), the broader category of French gâteaux, and the shorter, fruit-focused tart. It also describes a Torte's qualities as "a festive, fancy, round concoction". It lists the Hungarian Dobos torte and German Black Forest cake as tortes; I would accept the former, but personally I would call the latter a layer cake. It names the Austrian Linzer torteas being "somewhat atypical" (because it's a tart in all but name), as well as the Viennese Sachertorte (which can be a single layer, with the jam spread on top of the cake and then coated with chocolate ganache).

The Oxford Companion to Food has an entry on "Torte and Kuchen" that might also be interesting.

The main point is that "a cake with layers" is not the same as "a layer cake", and I would not suggest merging them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:17, 18 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@WhatamIdoing I think you may be right. We need better sources, but overall, I concur that not all tortes are multilayered. But I am not sure I follow this: ""a cake with layers" is not the same as "a layer cake"". What cake has layers but is not a layer cake? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:08, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It depends on how you choose to define the terms. You could have a definition that is "any cake with layers is a layer cake". You can also have a definition that says "only modern cakes can be layer cakes" or "only American-style cakes are layer cakes".

Some of this is due to the difficulty of defining "cake". For example, Mille-feuille has layers, but is it a cake? I say no, but the word cake appears repeatedly in the article. Mille crêpes is a stack of crepes in the shape of a cake. It has many layers. If you told me you were bringing me a layer cake, and you appeared with that, I might be pleased, but I would be surprised by your description. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:07, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@WhatamIdoing Well, yes, but we should not invent our own definitions. One could hope such terms are defined in some reliable sources... and that they would not contradict themselves, sigh. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:44, 22 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

We have definitions; we also have contradictions. Or at least different sources preferring different definitions.

I think this is a moment to think about Wikipedia:Article titles and scopes. The first question is "What topic do we want to write about here?" The second question is "What's a reasonable name for that topic?" Reasoning backwards from the article title causes problems – like "The page is called 'cancer', so that should have Cancer (disease), Cancer (constellation), and Cancer (astrology), right?" WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:07, 22 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

From the bleachers, 0.02€: I apologize if I'm missing the occasional point, but what exactly is supposed to be the point of the article "torte"? Where, literally, too, does the definition come from? I have no idea how common the term is in any english-speaking country, and I didn't even know it existed as such in any english idiom until just now I tried to find out how to translate "Sahnetorte" into English. However, my point being that the moment one says Black Forest Gateau, or Cake, is not a torte, there might already be an issue, as long as one considers that the article and both references to an Oxford Companion refer to torte being German or German-derived, and in German, BFG's a Torte. By the way, Black Forest Cake redirects to Black Forest Gateau. The difference being a cake is solid dough, or batter, while a torte is filled, layered, or, ah, topped (more than just a glaze or a layer of fruit?). Come to think of it, the only difference between a cheesecake and a Käsesahnetorte (roughly cheese-cream-torte, non-layered attack on anyone's diet) is a lot of cream. Which of course does not help in any way in the attempt to differentiate layer cake and torte. It is merely my personal opinion that while a layer cake seems to be a torte, the vice versa ist not neccessarily so - long as one wants to stick with the german use of the concept. With regards from Germany, --G-41614 (talk) 11:30, 1 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@G-41614, I'd have thought that Schwarzwälderkuchen could also be called a kuchen (cake), though I believe that Schwarzwälder Kirschtorte is the more normal name (and the one used in my copy of Sarah Wiener's La Dolce Wiener).

The definitions, when I was young and the world was right, ran something like this:

A cake was a baked dessert whose main component bore some resemblance to the picture on an ordinary box of cake mix. This included, e.g., fruitcake but not fruit trifle (trifle uses cake as an ingredient, but the result isn't a cake), and it included flourless chocolate cake but not pavlova, even though they are both flourless baked desserts.
A layer cake was a particular shape of cake. Any ordinary cake could be made into that shape, just like any cake could be made in a bigger or smaller size, or square instead of round. Some cakes (e.g., Lane cake) were required to be layer cakes (because they're defined by the filling).
Brownies were not cake. Or, they might technically be cake in some philosophical sense, but you never, ever said that they were cake.
Cakes do not have pie crusts on the bottom. A dry-bottom Shoofly pie might look like a piece of cake with a bit of pastry underneath, but it's a pie.
A torte was a dense cake made with ground nuts, usually with little or no leavening agent other than eggs, and having what we thought of as a European flair. This single-layer chocolate almond cake is a torte (in this model). This white cake filled with lemon, raspberries, and raspberry cream is not a torte (too American, just an ordinary white cake with fancy fillings). A torte was always a cake, and it might be a layer cake (i.e., have that shape), but you wouldn't say it was a layer cake.
If the recipe was "foreign", one was allowed to follow the name of the individual recipe. If you thought the American Boston cream pie was actually a pie, then that showed your ignorance, but if you said that the Austrian Linzertorte (which is a jam tart) is a torte, then that meant you were culturally sophisticated.

Sahnetorte doesn't exist in American cooking. There is no equivalent of a thin, dry cake covered with piles of whipped cream (Schlagsahne). We would therefore keep the original name, and if it had to be classified, it'd probably be based on the name (therefore a torte) or the kind of cake (e.g., a sponge cake). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:17, 1 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Per WhatamIdoing I would keep the articles separate. Torte seems to be discussing a rather specific type of cake (if that's the right term) originating from Germany, while layer cake is a much more general article about any and all cakes arranged with layers of filling in between layers of cake. And, as noted, not all tortes are even layered anyway. — Amakuru (talk) 10:02, 2 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry it took me this long and thank you for the information, WhatamIdoing. Especially regarding the non-existence of the "Sahnetorte". I didn't even think of pie, as that term isn't a normal part of my language. Guess the connotations are too different, so my german pov ist rather pointless. Despite this, one observation. I've lived some two decades in southern Germany right next to the Black Forest. Never heard it called a cake, only ever torte. Could be a us-american/foreign (from a german pov) thing. Regards, --G-41614 (talk) 15:43, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Gateau" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Gateau has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 June 28 § Gateau until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 14:26, 28 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]