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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Ted Wilson & Robert Pierson

There are no secondary sources that link Ted Wilson or Robert Pierson to Last Generation Theology. Please cite secondary sources for these links, or remove these names from the article as this constitutes original research. Simply quoting passages from their speeches, or citing places where they have used the same quotations by EGW that are used to support LGT, does not mean that these people support LGT. Databases (talk) 16:20, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Thats what you fail to understand, traditional Adventist belief is LGT all the way to the early pioneers, Ellen and James White, Jones and Waggoner, etc.., and the concepts of the Latter Rain and sealing of the saints living at the close of probation which they held is same as Ted Wilson & Robert Pierson. Now how it differs from M. L. Andreasen and Larry Kirkpatrick is the issue at hand. ....Simbagraphix (talk) 23:26, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
In all of my research and reading, I do not find any definitions of the term "last generation theology" in any Adventist writings dating back to the 1800's. M. L. Andreasen uses the term "The Last Generation" as the title to a chapter in The Sanctuary Service[The Sanctuary Service, by M. L. Andreasen, http://www.restoringtheoldpaths.com/uploads/The_Sanctuary_Service_by_M.L_Andreasen.pdf]
I do find, however, a consistent use of the terms "Last Generation Theology" and "Last Generation Perfection" in reference to the teachings of M. L. Andreasen, Dennis Priebe, Larry Kirpatrick, etc, as attested by the following sources:
  • Angel Manuel Rodríguez, Theology of the Last Generation, Adventist Review, October 10, 2013 [1] [2]
  • A Historical-Contextual Analysis of the Final-Generation Theology of M. L. Andreasen, by Paul M. Evans, Dissertation, Andrews University, July 2010 [3] Summary [4]
  • Last Generation Theology: A Different Salvation? by Nick Miller, GYC 2012 [5]
  • Did Adventist leaders Lie to Walter Martin? by Stephen D. Pitcher, Proclamation! Magazine, July August September 2010 [6]
  • Moral Complexity, by Rich Hannon, Spectrum Magazine, August 30, 2012 [7] Databases (talk) 19:40, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Overcoming the LGT Formula, by Marcos Torres, Spectrum Magazine, July 4, 2014 [8]
If other editors would like to make the case that LGT is something different than what is taught by Andreasen, Priebe, and Kirkpatrick, then please provide relevant sources. Otherwise, this article should focus on the definition of LGT as brought forward in extant secondary sources. This is not the place to re-define LGT, but to simply describe the debate. If LGT has been re-defined somewhere, please provide the source. Databases (talk) 19:33, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
Look up "last generation" and "adventist" and it will go all the way to the early pioneers. I will work on it....Simbagraphix (talk) 21:19, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Define LGT

A lot of the dis-agreement on this page seems to result from a vague definition of LGT. Some editors here seem to think that LGT simply means a belief in victory over sin. If this is the case, than LGT is just another name for what is taught by the Adventist church (as these editors would argue). If this is true, than there is no need for a separate WP article on this topic (it is not notable), and I propose a merge of this article with Seventh-day Adventist theology. However, I believe the weight of evidence in the sources already listed in this article, indicates that this is NOT so. LGT carries some unique teachings, which are distinct and different from Adventist belief. Although proponents of LGT attempt to argue that the beliefs are the "authentic" teachings of the pioneers, the earliest systematic developement and statement of LGT beliefs is M. L. Andreasen. LGT is not the same as Adventist belief--it never has been. It is a very popular, but minority viewpoint. Databases (talk) 15:17, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

That is incorrect, even Progressive Adventist admit it was taught by the Adventist Pioneers, if you search you will find much articles with their statements clearly showing this..Simbagraphix (talk) 13:04, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
There was a study by Adventist scholars and the conclusions of the study found that "all of the basic components of Andreasen’s final-generation theology were expressed by previous Adventist writers." See A HISTORICAL-CONTEXTUAL ANALYSIS OF THE FINAL-GENERATION THEOLOGY OF M. L. ANDREASEN by Paul M. Evans.
Very good reference, 12.21.30.4, but as previously pointed out, this thesis does not prove that the pioneers believed the same as Andreasen, as is argured by many proponants of LGT. Basically, Evans' argument is that Andreasen didn't invent all his ideas--he got his ideas from early Adventist pioneers (White, Jones & Waggoner, etc). Even considering the precedant for the ideas in early Adventism, the case can be maintained that Andreasen was the first one to systematicly present the ideas of LGT. This is Andreasen's line of reasoning. (I have taken liberty to continue to the reasoning to show the fallicy of logic but this is perhaps outside the discussion for WP).
  • Christ was tempted "in every point" like we are
    • THEREFORE Christ's nature was fallen, and included tendencies to sin
      • THEREFORE Christ was tempted from "within and without" (Kirkpatrick) [otherwise he would not have been tempted as we are]
        • [THEREFORE, Christ had sinful thoughts and desires within himself; he had a "carnal" mind that had to be renewed by grace outside of Himself; i.e. He was Himself in need of a savior.]
  • Christ's ministry in the sanctuary in heaven is a continuation / finishing of the atonement begun at the cross
    • THEREFORE Christ's atonement was "unfinished" at the cross
      • THEREFORE the atonement must be completed by the perfecting of the lives of the last generation of the saints (parallel atonement)
        • [THEREFORE, the works of man (or God's work through man) add the finishing touch to salvation by completing the merit which Christ began to earn by His death]
  • Satan's power is manifest in this world, sin remains in the lives of professed Christians, and Christ has still not returned
    • THEREFORE Satan must have been undefeated at the cross, and Christ's overcoming of Satan's temptations was insufficient to defeat his arguments
      • THEREFORE the purpose of the perfection of the last generation is to finally and forever silence the arguments of Satan, ultimately defeating Satan in the Great Controversy
        • [THEREFORE, just as God became man's savior through Christ, so man becomes God's savior by finally overcoming sin and defeating Satan in the last generation.]
Databases (talk) 22:38, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
No, again you don't grasp what Adventist believe, Andreasen was not the first one to systematically present the ideas of LGT as it was Adventist belief since the Pioneers, only the hastening and sinless perfection are in question. We find in Adventist belief, 'He was made in the "likeness of sinful flesh," or "sinful human nature," or "fallen human nature," (cf. Rom. 8:3).11 This in no way indicates that Jesus Christ was sinful, or participated in sinful acts or thoughts. Though made in the form or likeness of sinful flesh, He was sinless and His sinlessness is beyond questioning.' Seventh-day Adventists Believe. . . pg 47.
Adventist doctrine is Christ never had sinful desires, He had the fallen flesh nature weakened by sin since the fall of Adam, and was temped on all points as we are, but had no taint of sin and at the cross paid the full price for our sins so that we may be saved, the atonement in the heavenly tabernacle is the application of His atoning blood. "the actual atoning death of our Lord—took place at Calvary once for all time (Heb. 9:26-28; 10:10-14)...On the cross the penalty for human sin was fully paid. Divine justice was satisfied. From a legal perspective the world was restored to favor with God... The application of the atoning blood during the mediatorial ministry of the priest was also seen as a form of atonement (Lev. 4:35). The English term atonement implies a reconciliation between two estranged parties. As the atoning death of Christ reconciled the world to God, so His mediation, or the application of the merits of His sinless life and substitutionary death, makes reconciliation or atonement with God a personal reality for the believer." Seventh-day Adventists Believe... pg 315-316
Andreasen brought out two points, that Christs Second Coming was delayed because of our lack of overcoming sin which even many Christians hold that the apostle's felt was the reason Christ didn't come in their lifetime, so its not a new idea. And as the living saints at the end will stand without a mediator, he brought out that this means it is possible for this "last generation" of Christian believers to overcome sin like Christ and restore a sinless state of perfect obedience. These are in many Adventist writings even from the Pioneers, but Andreasen felt others were coming out with a view that sin could not be overcome in this lifetime, and thus changing the belief traditionally held from scripture and end time prophecy especially as seen in the 'Great Controversy' writings of Ellen White, and so put a spotlight on this belief. We find the following as Adventist belief, "The cosmic perspective the book of Job affords provides powerful proof of the great controversy between Christ and Satan. This planet is the stage on which this dramatic struggle between right and wrong is being played out. As Scripture states, "We have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men" (1 Cor. 4:9)...Sin severed the relationship between God and man, and "whatever is not from faith is sin" (Rom. 14:23). The breaking of God's commandments, or laws, is the immediate result of a lack of faith, the evidence of a ruptured relationship. In turn, by the plan of salvation God intends to restore the trust in the Creator that leads to a loving relationship manifested by obedience. As Christ noted, love leads to obedience (John 14:15)." Seventh-day Adventists Believe...pg 101....Simbagraphix (talk) 12:12, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Simba... You don't seem to understand that Andreasen invented LGT by misunderstanding and misusing Ellen. And your appeal to Progressive Adventists is bogus, because they also misunderstand and misuse Ellen and end up rejecting what Historic Adventists believe. Mainline Adventists DO NOT believe in LGT and note that Ellen did not either. Historic Adventists and Progressive Adventists are both legalistic movements trying to deceive other Adventists away from their first love of God. --RoyBurtonson (talk) 16:51, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

White used "Human Nature" to mean; 1, His physical body and 2, His spiritual quality as indicated by the context in which she was speaking.

For instance, here are some texts where she is talking about his physical body, his heridity, his genetics.

"But our saviour --RoyBurtonson (talk) 23:17, 12 February 2015 (UTC)took humanity, with all its liabilities of the race as they existed when He came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weakeness of fallen man upon Him, He was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed." -- Review and Herald, July 28, 1874

"But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity." -- The Desire of Ages, p. 49

"He was hungry and thirsty and wearly. He was sustained by food, and refreshed by sleep. He shared the lot of man; yet he was the blameless Son of God. He was God in the flesh. -- The desire of ages, p. 311

Here are some texts talking about his spiritual quality:

"for his spiritual nature was free from every taint of sin" -- The Signs of the Times, Dec. 9, 1897

"In the fullness of time He was to be revealed in human form [a physical body]. He was to take His position at the head of humanity by taking the nature [physical body} but not the sinfulness of man. --The Signs of the Times, May 29, 1901

Christ is called the second Adam. In purity and holiness, connected with God and beloved by God, He began where the first Adam began. Willing He passed over the ground where Adam fell, and redeemed Adam's failure. -- The Youth's Instructor, June 2, 1898

"He vanquished Satan in the same [spiritual] nature over which in Eden Satan obtained the victory. The enemy was overcome by Christ in His human nature [physical body].

In other words, Jesus physical body was like ours after years of heredity in a sinful world, but his spiritual nature was like Adam before the fall. Historic Adventists seem incapable of comprehending this distinction, saying that Jesus' spiritual nature was not like Adams, but like mankind after the fall. This is not the mainline SDA position. Andreasen made it up. --RoyBurtonson (talk) 23:17, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Adventist believe that Christ was in all ways created as man and this includes Adam’s human nature after the fall. But Jesus did not have a taint of sin. In the Desire of Ages Ellen White said, "He [Christ] took our nature and overcame, that we through taking His nature might overcome. Made 'in the likeness of sinful flesh,' He lived a sinless life" (pp.311,312). Also good read is SDA Bible Commentary: "In taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses by which man is encompassed, "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He "knew no sin." He was the Lamb "without blemish and without spot." Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour's head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. . . . We should have no misgivings in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the human nature of Christ.-- The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1131. {7ABC 447.3}
Here is a explanation by Ángel Manuel Rodríguez on the Adventist church view of the nature of Christ :"...the church's Statement of Fundamental Beliefs is useful because it summarizes that which the church holds to be biblical truth around the world. Let me quote from it some statements related to your question: "God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ [John 1:1-3, 14]. . . . Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ [Heb. 2:14]. . . . He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God [Heb. 4:15]." In infinite love and mercy "God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us" (2 Cor. 5:21, Clear Word).Those statements attest that, first, Jesus was divine; second, that He became what He was not, truly human; and, third, that He was without sin, even though He faced severe temptations. We can make those affirmations without hesitancy because that is what the Bible clearly teaches about God's Son...."
Now Historics tend to go the semi arian views on the nature of Son of God, and that Christ had a sinful inclination and desires to sin, this is not what Adventist doctrine holds but many seemed to have picked that up from what the churchs James White and others came from believed before they were Adventist and thus the issue.
Progressives tend to go the other way, to pre-fall impeccable 'unlike flesh creation' nature of Christ which could not be tempted and was just a substitute not our example, and believe in original sin, along with rejecting the traditional formulation of investigative judgment, 1844, and the basic pillars of Adventism, and most of the Fundament Belief's, etc.....
What makes Jesus equal (having no advantage over other human beings), is that he had all the damage done by sin (Adam’s human nature after the fall), but he had what Peter calls 'the Mind of Christ' which was what Adam was given to begin with and Paul speaks of in my view, that man can have and become dead to sin. Thus Christ has no advantage in overcoming sin as through the power of the Holy Spirit we also can have the 'Mind of Christ'. Taking this into view, then the following quotes makes sense:

"Jesus was in all things made like unto His brethren. He became flesh, even as we are. He was hungry and thirsty and weary. He was sustained by food and refreshed by sleep. He shared the lot of man; yet He was the blameless Son of God. He was God in the flesh. His character is to be ours.--The Desire of Ages, p. 311.

"But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured.-- The Desire of Ages, p. 117.

"The human nature of Christ is likened to ours, and suffering was more keenly felt by Him; for His spiritual nature was free from every taint of sin. Therefore His desire for the removal of suffering was stronger than human beings can experience. . . . The Son of God endured the wrath of God against sin. All the accumulated sin of the world was laid upon the Sin-bearer, the One who was innocent, the One who alone could be the propitiation for sin, because He Himself was obedient. He was One with God. Not a taint of corruption was upon Him.--The Signs of the Times, Dec. 9, 1897.

"Christ did not make believe take human nature; He did verily take it. He did in reality possess human nature. "As the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same." He was the son of Mary; He was of the seed of David according to human descent.--The Review and Herald, April 5, 1906.

Christ possessed fully human nature, taking on man's human nature in its fallen condition, but with uncorrupted desires and inclinations (or Mind of Christ) available to all through the Holy Spirit....Simbagraphix (talk) 10:05, 13 February 2015 (UTC)


When Historic Adventists say that Christ had Adams nature after the fall they mean that both his physical body and his spiritual nature was exactly like fallen Adam. But, Ellen is clear that Jesus' spiritual nature was like Adam before the fall, while his physical nature was like ours after the fall. So, to be clear, Mainline Adventists do not ever state that Jesus had Adams nature after the fall. They always make the distinction that he had Adam's spiritual nature before the fall, but that his physical nature was that of mankind some 4000 years after the fall. Wording is very important. --RoyBurtonson (talk) 20:26, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
You have to look very carefully as Ellen White clearly said that it wasn't just a body, but the moral and mental state after the fall, long removed from the 'original state of purity and uprightness' which Adam would have had, and was tempted 'tempted in all points like as we are'. Look where it says 'It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin.' So its not just a body Christ inherited.

"It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 49}

"Christ was not in as favorable a position in the desolate wilderness to endure the temptations of Satan as was Adam when he was tempted in Eden. The Son of God humbled himself and took man's nature after the race had wandered four thousand years from Eden, and from their original state of purity and uprightness. Sin had been making its terrible marks upon the race for ages; and physical, mental, and moral degeneracy prevailed throughout the human family. When Adam was assailed by the tempter in Eden he was without the taint of sin. He stood in the strength of his perfection before God. All the organs and faculties of his being were equally developed, and harmoniously balanced. Christ, in the wilderness of temptation, stood in Adam's place to bear the test he failed to endure. Here Christ overcame in the sinner's behalf, four thousand years after Adam turned his back upon the light of his home. Separated from the presence of God, the human family had been departing every successive generation, farther from the original purity, wisdom, and knowledge which Adam possessed in Eden. Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon him, he was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed. {RH, July 28, 1874}

"I had freedom and power in presenting Jesus, who took upon himself the infirmities and bore the griefs and sorrows of humanity, and conquered in our behalf. He was made like unto his brethren, with the same susceptibilities, mental and physical. He was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin; and he knows how to succor those who are tempted. Are you harassed and perplexed? So was Jesus. Do you feel the need of encouragement? So did Jesus. As Satan tempts you, so he tempted the Majesty of heaven. {RH February 10, 1885}

"Christ was not in as favorable a position in the desolate wilderness to endure the temptations of Satan as was Adam when he was tempted in Eden. The Son of God humbled himself and took man's nature after the race had wandered four thousand years from Eden, and from their original state of purity and uprightness. Sin had been making its terrible marks upon the race for ages; and physical, mental, and moral degeneracy prevailed throughout the human family. When Adam was assailed by the tempter in Eden he was without the taint of sin. He stood in the strength of his perfection before God. All the organs and faculties of his being were equally developed, and harmoniously balanced. Christ, in the wilderness of temptation, stood in Adam's place to bear the test he failed to endure. Here Christ overcame in the sinner's behalf, four thousand years after Adam turned his back upon the light of his home. Separated from the presence of God, the human family had been departing every successive generation, farther from the original purity, wisdom, and knowledge which Adam possessed in Eden. Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when he came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon him, he was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed. {RH, July 28, 1874}

"Christ clothed His divinity with humanity, that humanity might touch humanity; that He might live with humanity and bear all the trials and afflictions of man. He was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin. In His humanity He understood all the temptations that will come to man (Ms 21, 1895). {7BC 925}

"It was in the order of God that Christ should take upon himself the form and nature of fallen man, that he might be made perfect through suffering, and himself endure the strength of Satan's fierce temptations, that he might understand how to succor those who should be tempted. {RH December 31, 1872}

"He assumed human nature, with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations. {Ms 58, 1890}

Notice "that he might be made perfect through suffering". Clearly Christ had a human nature with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations, not just a body of bone and sinew....Simbagraphix (talk) 22:30, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Unless any other issues I will go ahead and remove the POV...Simbagraphix (talk) 10:55, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

How Historic Adventist misapply Ellen White

Historic Adventists misapply Ellen White making it look like she taught the Last Generation theology where a perfect, sinless generation of Adventists can live without the need of Jesus. They often quote this directly from Ellen:

“When he leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor.” {Great Controversy, p. 614}

They imply that being without an intercessor, means that those who are to be saved have become perfect, meaning having reached a level of living where they no longer sin or can sin. But when taken within the context of the entire paragraph it is obvious that that is NOT what Ellen was talking about. Read entire paragraph:

“When he leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected his mercy, despised his love, and trampled upon his law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}

This says that there comes a time when God’s long-suffering ends and Jesus leaves the sanctuary. The wicked have passed their probation and without God’s intercession of the angels holding in check the “winds” of human passion, all humanity, both righteous and wicked, experience a time of terrible trouble.

This says nothing about human perfection; it says nothing about a last generation of perfect people living without the need of a savior. God’s “intercession” has been to hold off strife that is the natural result of sin to try to save as many people as possible, but the time will come when everyone alive has made their decision for or against God, and then that intercession ends. A time of trouble ensues…..

Following Andreasen’s lead, Historic Adventists use this text either unwittingly, or deliberately, out of context to try to make it seem like Ellen White believed in a last generation theology and so they appear simply to be promoting what she did. Either way, it makes their theology highly suspect, if not false. A thorough study of all of Ellen’s writings shows that she never promoted LGT.

They base their theology upon Ellen White and not the Bible. She wrote various “testimonies” to people in her life time who were similarly misusing her writings, warning them not to do so. Andreasen developed LGT not long AFTER Ellen died.

This illustrates why you cannot just take quotes from Ellen White as supplied by Historic Adventists to try to prove or support LGT as is being done in this article. --RoyBurtonson (talk) 20:45, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

As I showed previously the remnant end time believers are Adventist doctrine, not Historic or Progressive, but mainstream Adventist beliefs. I can repost if you need it....Simbagraphix (talk) 12:58, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Ellen White is clear on what happens, she lays out that righteousness does not come by trying with all our might to do right on our own, but by choosing to surrender our will to Christ’s will and letting Him work in us, by asking for His help and power when temptation comes.

"As the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. Ephesians 6:6. Let no one say, “I cannot overcome my defects of character”; for if this is your decision, then you cannot have eternal life. The impossibility is all in your will. If you will not, that constitutes the cannot. The real difficulty is the corruption of an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the will of God. When there is a determined purpose born in your heart to overcome, you will have a disposition to overcome, and will cultivate those traits of character that are desirable, and will engage in the conflict with steady, persevering effort. You will exercise a ceaseless watchfulness over your defects of character, and will cultivate right practices in little things. The difficulty of overcoming will be lessened in proportion as the heart is sanctified by the grace of Christ. Our will must choose to give up our sinful desires and surrender all to God’s will. This must happen every time we are tempted. Ask for God’s power and the victory will come. Temptation never ceased for Jesus and it will never cease for us. It is an ongoing battle. Yet God has promised us the victory if we trust in His words. When we control our will and choose to obey God every moment, we are overcoming in His strength, not our own."Sons and Daughters of God, p. 115 and we have "The followers of Christ know little of the plots which Satan and his hosts are forming against them. But He who sitteth in the heavens will overrule all these devices for the accomplishment of his deep designs. The Lord permits his people to be subjected to the fiery ordeal of temptation, not because he takes pleasure in their distress and affliction, but because this process is essential to their final victory. He could not, consistently with his own glory, shield them from temptation; for the very object of the trial is to prepare them to resist all the allurements of evil. Neither wicked men nor devils can hinder the work of God or shut out his presence from his people, if they will, with subdued, contrite hearts, confess and put away their sins, and in faith claim his promises. Every temptation, every opposing influence, whether open or secret, may be successfully resisted, “not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.” [Zechariah 4:6.]" The Great Controversy (1888), pp. 528-529 and also "There is nothing that can keep you away from God but a rebellious will. The will is the governing power in the nature of man. If the will is set right, all the rest of the being will come under its sway. The will is not the taste or the inclination, but it is the choice, the deciding power, the kingly power, which works in the children of men unto obedience to God or to disobedience.The Holy Spirit has nothing to do with such a confusion of noise and multitude of sounds as passed before me last January. Satan works amid the din and confusion of such music, which, properly conducted, would be a praise and glory to God. He makes its effect like the poison sting of the serpent."Our Father Cares, p. 60

Historic Adventists try to prove their positions by exclusively quoting from Ellen, which she said that her writings should not be used to do.
"Between 1900 and 1920 at least five theological struggles would erupt within Adventism. The first was the Holy Flesh movement, which moved beyond the traditional Adventist interest in Character perfection to that of the physical perfection of the human body before the Second Advent. The second concerned the wave of pantheistic ideas that swept over the denomination under the influence of such Adventists leaders as Kellogg and Waggoner. The third involved A. F. Ballenger's rejection of Adventism's traditional understanding of the sanctuary and its ministries. The pentecostal/holiness ecclesiology set forth my Jones and Waggoner led to the fourth struggle. Irt denied the need for church organization since the Holy Spirit spoke directly to each church member. And the fifth was the extended battle of the "daily" of Daniel 8:13, with S. N. Haskell and other arguing the so-called Old view that the daily meant ancient Roman Paganism and Prescott and other contending that the daily represented Christ's priestly mediation in the heavenlkt sanctuary. As in the Battle over the law in Galation 20 years earlier, the debate over the daily was in part a conflict over Ellen White's role as a prophetic/historicl interpreter of the Bible. And once again she denied that function. "I cannot consent," she penned, "that any of my writing shall be taken as settling this matter."(1SM 164)" [Knight, 2000, A Search for Identity, pp 126-127]
The LGT movement is based solely on what people think Ellen White said and all proofs go back to her writings. This is exactly what you have done in your previous statements. LGT is NOT Adventist theology because IT IS NOT based on the Bible.
Ellen did teach of perfection of character which can be obtained by all believers in all ages. But LGT is a twisted teaching by Andreasen. You need to learn the difference. --RoyBurtonson (talk) 17:08, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Ellen White quickly rebuked the Holy Flesh movement that was part of the of Pentecostal-like phenomena and has nothing to do with the end time remnant. "Worship With a Bedlam of Noise...It is impossible to estimate too largely the work that the Lord will accomplish through His proposed vessels in carrying out His mind and purpose. The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy" Spirit. The Holy Spirit never reveals itself in such methods, in such a bedlam of noise. This is an invention of Satan to cover up his ingenious methods for making of none effect the pure, sincere, elevating, ennobling, sanctifying truth for this time. Better never have the worship of God blended with music than to use musical instruments to do the work which last January was represented to me would be brought into our camp meetings. The truth for this time needs nothing of this kind in its work of converting souls. A bedlam of noise shocks the senses and perverts that which if conducted aright might be a blessing. The powers of satanic agencies blend with the din and noise, to have a carnival, and this is termed the Holy Spirit’s working. When the camp meeting is ended, the good which ought to have been done and which might have been done by the presentation of sacred truth is not accomplished. Those participating in the supposed revival receive impressions which lead them adrift. They cannot tell what they formerly knew regarding Bible principles. No encouragement should be given to this kind of worship... The same kind of influence came in after the passing of the time in 1844. The same kind of representations were made. Men became excited, and were worked by a power thought to be the power of God " [Selected Messages Book 2 pg 36-38]...Simbagraphix (talk) 20:39, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
I proved beyond question at the top of this article that this sentence from the GC was take widely out of context. Go back and read the sentence in the context of the entire paragraph. As I said above: This says nothing about human perfection; it says nothing about a last generation of perfect people living without the need of a savior. God’s “intercession” in thes paragraph was to hold off strife that is the natural result of sin to try to save as many people as possible, but the time will come when everyone alive has made their decision for or against God, and then that intercession ends.
To continue to use this sentence out of context is bald face lying! --RoyBurtonson (talk) 20:11, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
It is talking directly of the end time remnant at the close of probation when Christ's intercession ends in the Heavenly Tabernacle, it is the issue at hand of that there is no question. It is part of the understanding of the Investigative Judgement and the living saints at the end and overcoming through Christ, the only question is, does it lead to sinless perfection as LGT lays our or not, so it is at the heart of the issue and is included in any discussion on Adventist beliefs of the end time. Clearly it needs to be in the article whether it appears to support or not support the proponents of LGT....Simbagraphix (talk) 10:58, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
You are completely wrong! That paragraph is NOT talking about the ending of Christ's intercession in the Tabernacle!! It is talking about the ending of God's intercession in keeping back strife on the planet. Go back and read the entire paragraph again. Good reading comprehension skills are required. Here it is again with bold instead of just italics as before:
“When he leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected his mercy, despised his love, and trampled upon his law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}
NOTE: ALL INHABITANTS of the Earth, both wicked and righteous, are plunged into a final time of trouble. This has nothing to do with anyone living without sinning in the end. It has to do with everyone living through the final trouble caused by Satan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RoyBurtonson (talk • contribs) 23:39, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
This refers to this period of end time believers and so is directely part of the discussion related to this article...209.12.14.250 (talk) 12:55, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
In the article, the preceding sentence say: "The urgency for attaining perfection comes from the knowledge that the remnant must live perfectly during the time of trouble at the end to prove to the universe that fallen human beings can keep the law of God." And the quote from White to prove that the remnant must live perfectly during this time is this: “When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor.”
BUT, I just pointed out previously that that quote from that paragraph has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING TO DO WITH LIVING PERFECTLY. As I said in my previous note: "That paragraph is NOT talking about the ending of Christ's intercession in the Tabernacle. It is talking about the ending of God's intercession in keeping back strife on the planet." The righteous must live through a fearful time of trouble caused by Satan and the wicked, all of which happens in the sight of a Holy God. It says nothing about needing to live perfectly. READ THAT PARAGRAPH AGAIN!! That quote is being deceitfully used out of context to back up a lie. --RoyBurtonson (talk) 20:56, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
The paragraph before it says "Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still". This is exactly what the article is about, then Ellen White confirms the reason “When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor.” It speaks directly of what happens at the time of the last generation to the living saints of the remnant at the end. It relates directly to LGT as any neutral observer can see....Simbagraphix (talk) 00:08, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
But this has nothing to do with havng perfection of character as promoted by the LGT heresy. Just because Jesus leaves off the judgment it does not mean that the last generation of people are sinless just like Jesus was when he was living on the earth. This is so WRONG!!!! This is pure heresy. --RoyBurtonson (talk) 20:29, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

And Ellen White makes it even clearer in the Great Controversy, "Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God’s people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14. When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing. “Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years.” Malachi 3:4..."The Great Controversy, Page 425....Simbagraphix (talk) 12:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Too much George Knight

I edited the criticism section to temper it a little bit and show that it is largely a rehashing of George Knight's views. This is irresponsible scholarship and I don't believe Knight himself would approve that his views would reflect as the final authority on the subject. Yet the criticism section uses statements like "the fact is", etc. I have reworded some areas to show this is a perspective of Knight. It still needs much cleaning up to do. Let us work together, both adherents and critics to present a fair article for all to see.67.43.190.226 (talk) 17:24, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Welcome and thank you for your input I hope you like Wikipedia, and decide to register as a editor and maybe even help us with the Wikipedia:WikiProject Seventh-day Adventist Church....Simbagraphix (talk) 11:21, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Knight is not just any Tom, Dick, or Harry. He is a recognized authority on SDA history being a professor of history at Andrews University. He has published many SDA biographies and history books. Everything I used from Knight is documented in his book from many, many sources. I could not reference all the sources in this short article. I focused on his sections about Andreasen and Questions on Doctrine in the book, but to get a full understanding of LGT and SDA theology you need to read the entire book. The sections on the early development of SDA theology after the great disappointment is very illuminating. Knight points out that most of the pioneer SDAs would not agree with many of the 28 beliefs SDAs now hold. And, that Historic Adventist beliefs had their origins in the early 20th century NOT with the 19th century pioneers. The problem is that most Adventists that have become SDA's since the 1950s are quite ignorant of church history and so are easy prey for off shoots like Historic Adventists. --RoyBurtonson (talk) 21:08, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I understand Knight is not just "anyone", but neither was the late Dr. Herbert Edgar Douglass and even Millian L. Andreasen. Andreasen had a respectable position as head of what was to become our seminary. To suggest that Knight's expertise surpasses that of a Douglass, Andreasen or a Dr. Paul Evans (who connected LGT to the teachings of the Pioneers in his doctoral dissertation) is being biased and unfair. Knight is not the only scholar of the SDA Church, and there are many SDAs who do not support his conclusions. Ron Duffield's book, The Return of the Latter Rain exposes many of Knight's faulty assumptions when dealing with the history of 1888 and it is well researched and documented. Please be responsible when appealing to authority. George Knight would agree.67.43.190.226 (talk) 15:14, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
The heresy of Andreasen has held many in the SDA church in bondage for decades. He was kicked out of the church for good reason. Knight's dealing with Andreasen is spot on. I've read Andreasen's "letters" and other writings. The poor man was so wrong, it is so sad. And his pride exceeded his exceedingly poor theology. Questions on Doctrine was the best thing to have ever happened to the church. LGT is dragging down the SDA church and it needs to be expunged! And those promoting it excommunicated (it the church did such things). --RoyBurtonson (talk) 23:30, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
That LGT is heresy is not established. Wikipedia should not just reflect YOUR views, or even the views of one side of the debate. Andreasen may not have dealt with the issue in the best way, but his theology is an inheritance from many of the Pioneers, including Ellen G. White, whose support for the teaching is found in many places throughout the Testimonies. QoD did irreparable damage to the theology of the Church in that it now resembles a traditional Evangelical church and not the Remnant envisioned by Mrs. White that will complete the Gospel Commission and spread the Three Angels' Messages. It is true Andreasen was relieved of his credentials but they were restored posthumously, meaning the Church acknowledged it made a mistake to revoke them in the first place.166.137.118.56 (talk) 21:12, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
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