Talk:Kriči

The lede

Why should it be changed from an Albanian tribe to a tribe of Montenegro with Albanian origin? Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:15, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Loma's theory

User:Botushali, we are in no position as editors to claim our original research conclusions that the ethnonym of a non-Slavic Balkan tribe cannot come from a Slavic tribe from Pskov that never set foot in the Balkans. It’s ludicrous, and using WP:EXTRAORDINARY for a reliable author & source with an attribution. This is an etymological derivation from a Slavic language, whether happened a migration and exist a direct connection with the tribe of Krivichs is secondary. Out of all cited Serbian scholars, Vladimir Ćorović, Tatomir Vukanović, Andrija Luburić, only Aleksandar Loma is a linguist and an expert, and notable at that, for etymological questions. Miki Filigranski (talk) 20:43, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

As editors, we are most definitely capable of calling out WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims when we notice them. This is an etymological derivation from a Slavic language - maybe so, there are multiple theories regarding the name with no scholarly consensus. However, etymological root and derivation are two different things, and the article previously claimed the following - Aleksandar Loma considered possible derivation from the ethnonym of early Slavic tribe of Krivichs (via weakening of intervocalic in Zeta–Raška dialect).

If this line was instead referring to the two ethnonyms having the same etymological root, then things would be different. Rather, it’s claiming that Kriçi is possibly derived from the ethnonym of the Krivichs - how? How can a tribe in present-day Montenegro take its name directly from a tribe in Russia that never stepped foot in the Balkans? The notion that Kriçi is derived from Krivach is an extraordinary claim for this very reason. Botushali (talk) 22:10, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

We don't know for sure whether some Early Slavic tribe or clan did not step foot in the Balkans based on very scarce and biased historical sources. Early Slavic tribes during the second migration period (6-9th century) arrived in the area of Pskov from the south - roughly Ukraine and Danube basin (see Kazanski's "Archaeology of the Slavic Migrations", 2020) - exactly from where the Early Slavs migrated to the Balkans. That's why can be found same or similar early Slavic ethnonyms, toponyms and else in both East, West and South Europe. That does not necessarily mean direct close connection between two groups of the same ethnonym, which is part of a wider dispute about ethnogenesis, but does point to the common linguistic origin of the ethnonym. Loma 2019 says, translated to English, that "In Western Serbia, the relationship between the basic and diminutive forms apparently changed, in the sense that Uvac was not initially considered the main river, but was considered a tributary of the Vapa, which at their confluence was richer in water than it. It can be concluded that the pair *Vърь - *Vър-ьсь in the Balkans does not have its roots in pre-Slavic antiquity, but was transferred by the Slavs from the area of ​​their early mixing with the Balts, the fruit of which were the Krivichi, who inhabited the upper reaches of the Dnieper, Western Dvina and Volga in the early Middle Ages. It is even possible that their ethnonym was reflected in the south, in the form of Krichi, as one of the old Serbian tribes in upper Podrinje was called ... The idea was verbally suggested to me by my colleague Djordje Janković. The development of Kriviči > Kriči would be explained by the early weakening of the intervocalic in the dialects of the Zeta southern Sandžak type".--Miki Filigranski (talk) 18:11, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

There’s no sources that discuss the Krivichs themselves arriving from the Balkans - linking the two groups is extraordinary, particularly considering the Kriçi were not Slavs. Looking at the passage you’ve kindly provided above, whoever added the line initially quite possibly misunderstood it, because they wrote it as though Kriçi is derived from the Krivichs. That would be an extraordinary claim.

Nonetheless, if there’s no other sources supporting such an idea, then it shouldn’t be included on the article because it’s so vague and lacks scholarly foundation. In the above passage, no possible etymological root is even discussed to explain where the terms come from - it just simply lists two similar sounding terms and says that ‘x’ could have been reflected in ‘y’. You’d expect a linguist to put in a bit more effort for such a claim. Botushali (talk) 23:54, 19 May 2025 (UTC) Botushali (talk) 21:34, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

I've added the content in November 2024. The passage from the source is related to possible one wave of early Slavic expansion, based on Loma's linguistic observation, from Western Russia to the Balkans. As such it is presumed a connection between Kriçi and Krivichs, but lacks depth. I agree, such detailed information & opinion should be verified also in other reliable sources.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 19:52, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Comment: All Balkan Krichi are descendants of a lineage (J-Y22059) which is of Bronze Age North Levantine origin. It likely wasn't present in the Balkans before the Roman era. By definition, it's not of Slavic origin.--Maleschreiber (talk) 18:25, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

Haplogroups do not correspond always or completely to the ethnogenesis of an ethnic group or sub-group, hence it is not impossible to have a Slavic ethnonym and non-Slavic paternal lineage and vice-versa. We don't need to go far away in seeking examples, they are good one already, as supposedly have non-Slavic paternal lineage and ethnonym, but Slavic ethnic identity. However, their paternal lineage does indicate no early Slavic paternal influence and hence no early Slavic origin.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 19:52, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

@Botushali and Maleschreiber: please continue with editing the article, it needs expansion. It is also mostly based on Serbian and Montenegrin sources which aren't recent anymore, possibly also exist some Albanian sources.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 19:52, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Unfortunately, modern sources on the matter are very scarce. Thanks for the understanding, though. Botushali (talk) 22:13, 20 May 2025 (UTC)