Talk:John Tyler

"John T" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect John T has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2025 January 1 § FirstName LastInitial redirects for presidents until a consensus is reached. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|🤷) 03:49, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Infobox image

I'm thinking about adding this infobox image. What do you think? Interstellarity (talk) 00:18, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

Looking at the image page, I see that the license claimed is that it was made by an employee of the federal government and is thus public domain. I am not aware that Mathew Brady was a federal employee. Wehwalt (talk) 01:03, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

And anyway, isn't this the same image as is there presently, but showing more of Tyler? How does it help the reader to see Tyler full-length instead of portrait? Wehwalt (talk) 01:06, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

I agree with this. For a portrait in the infobox of a biographical article, a head-and-shoulders picture is a natural thing to use, and most of the articles about presidents of the United States use them. Bruce leverett (talk) 01:15, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

Agreed - the present version is preferable. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:06, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

We already show Martin Van Buren in a full body image when we could have used a cropped version. Interstellarity (talk) 09:35, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

I can't say I think much of the Van Buren full length image, personally, but that's another matter. See WP:OCON Wehwalt (talk) 17:57, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

Children parameter in infobox

What's the matter with mentioning Lyon in the children parameter? I thought this was what the children parameter was for, that is, to make connections between notable people and their notable children. Bruce leverett (talk) 02:32, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

I agree. I thought we state the number and list any notable children. Wehwalt (talk) 18:27, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

1844 Daguerreotype

Regarding the section regarding the 1844 electron, would this image of Tyler taken in 1844 be appropriate to add?

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Tyler_1844.jpg

Hoping to see what the consensus is Maxx1222 (talk) 23:47, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

It's just a poor quality photograph, and the novelty of it seems entirely theoretical to me. In other words, I don't see what illustrative value it has that all the other photographs/portraits in this article do not. Remsense ‥ 论 23:55, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Remsense. It isn't the first photograph of a sitting US president, Harrison was photographed on 4 March 1841, see [1]. So given it isn't a "first" and it is relatively poor quality and doesn't add anything that the existing photos don't have, I don't see a compelling reason to add it to the article. Opolito (talk) 00:00, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Info-Box Image

To the possible dismay of some, I’ve updated the infobox image. I want to clarify that this change is likely not permanent and remains subject to future revision. However, it’s time we addressed the issue directly.

You might ask, “Why not wait until a consensus is reached?”—and under normal circumstances, I’d agree. But in the meantime, it’s difficult to argue that the current image isn't more accurate than what we had before.

In my comment on James K. Polk's talk page regarding his known daguerreotypes, I mentioned that there are no known daguerreotypes of John Tyler taken during his presidency. After further research, I’ve found that there are currently two possible candidates. However, neither has been confirmed or verified by the broader academic or historical community. (This excludes the one that surfaced on eBay some time ago, where the seller claimed it was of Tyler.) The two images I refer to here have at least been suggested as possibly depicting him by more reputable institutions or publications.

Portrait	Comment
	This image was brought to my attention in the previous comment. While it has recently circulated online as a possible daguerreotype of John Tyler, there appears to be no clear consensus on when it was taken. This uncertainty is significant, as it raises the possibility that the image dates from his presidency—potentially making it the earliest surviving photograph of a sitting U.S. president, predating Polk. That said, further research is needed to verify both the date of the photograph and whether the subject is indeed Tyler. Additionally, I’ve been unable to locate the original image or confirm where it is currently held, which raises further questions about its authenticity.
	This daguerreotype is housed in the library at the College of William & Mary and is claimed to depict John Tyler around 1844–1845. However, if it is indeed Tyler, he appears significantly older than he did during his presidency—especially when compared to the other potential earlier image and contemporary portraits. This leads me to believe the photograph may have been taken later, possibly even into the 1860s. Personally, I have some doubts about whether the image actually depicts Tyler at all, though that uncertainty could simply be due to his angle.

What to Change it to?

I’d like to suggest a few interim options until a more permanent solution can be agreed upon.

Portrait	Comment
	Keep as is: I know this will be highly debated, but this is an accurate, unedited, and unaltered image of Tyler taken by Brady—albeit showing him much older and not as he appeared during his presidency.
	1842 Tyler: This portrait depicts Tyler as he appeared during his presidency, in contrast to the 1864 portrait. However, it's important to remember that photographs generally take precedence over painted portraits. (That said, portraits are still often used as the main infobox image in many Wikipedia articles—even when photographs are available.)
	Return: This is the image I’m most strongly opposed to reinstating, but I understand the desire to return to the long-standing version. As a print, it isn’t an accurate representation of Tyler. However, I’ll concede that it has been on the page for a long time, and if a majority of editors support its return, I’m open to deferring to consensus.

I understand this puts a lot of editors on the spot—and to some extent, that’s intentional. As much as I’d love to use the possible 1844 image due to its historical significance, it still needs more thorough verification and authentication. My hope is that highlighting it in this way will encourage more users to help with that process Benjamin.P.L (talk) 17:11, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for putting thumbnails of the proposed images here on the talk page.

On what grounds do you claim that File:Tyler Daguerreotype crop (restoration).jpg is an "unedited, unaltered" image of Tyler? Brady was a popular and reputable portrait photographer, and unless he explicitly stated otherwise, I would assume that any portrait photo he sold had been retouched to a fare-thee-well.

The meta-data for that file says, "Originally taken c. 1845". If this is accurate, Tyler was not "much older" here than during his presidency, which ended in 1844.

Regarding the last image, you write "As a print, it isn't an accurate representation of Tyler." What do you mean by this? All daguerrotypes and photographs are prints. The meta-data for this file says, "Reproduction of a photographic print made by Mathew Brady, c. 1860-1862". Bruce leverett (talk) 22:13, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

As I mentioned in my first comment regarding the "More Accurate Info-Box Image" back in July 2024, the image in question is not an original photograph but a hybrid—part photograph, part lithographic print. Unfortunately, the original 1845 photo has either been lost or has yet to be discovered.

If File:Restored_john_tyler_pic.png was truly taken between 1860 and 1862, you can clearly see a difference when compared to File:Tyler_Daguerreotype_crop_(restoration).jpg, which remains unaltered. Mathew Brady/his studio was known to alter his photos, as seen not only with Polk but also with Taylor.

I don't mind using a lithographic print, but if we are going to use one, why not choose one from the time when Tyler was actually serving as president, rather than the hybrid image? Benjamin.P.L (talk) 01:55, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

I hope to use the return or keep it as it is both are fine because they are good and the most accurate images Wcamp9 (talk) 03:10, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

The primary source of corroboration for the 1844 daguerreotype is a testimony of John Quincy Adams in a diary entry. While this per se may not constitute sufficient verification, I don't believe it is established that he was the subject of any in this year beyond this particular one.

As for my personal opinion, I would say the 1842 painting is apposite, inasmuch as it presents details without equivocation: the majority is aware of what it entails as to accuracy. (What is displayed currently is rather unclear—it is a restoration of an 1845 photograph, but its caption merely states it is from 1860–62? This first of all requires clarification.) As you mentioned also, the prevailing photograph is from an epoch that is not pertinent to the pinnacle of his career, which contrasts with the aforesaid painting. Perhaps this principle should be applied to John Quincy Adams; the principal representation should be congruous with the corresponding foremost association, as per the ideal of naturalness and appropriacy, with which a depiction of Tyler as a Confederate congressman—or in excess of a decade after his presidency—is irreconcilable. Solo4701 (talk) 19:01, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

I would support the painting. Even given the inherent inaccuracies of paintings, it would do a better job portraying for the reader the dynamic man who attained the political heights. Wehwalt (talk) 20:22, 24 May 2025 (UTC)

Certainly. It's not really unconventional either, as @Benjamin.P.L previously remarked.

Some instances wherein I can recall I've observed it:

1. Andrew Jackson
2. John C. Calhoun
3. Dolley Madison
4. Thomas Jefferson Randolph
5. John Armstrong Jr.

Solo4701 (talk) 21:12, 24 May 2025 (UTC)