Talk:History of religion

Dispute: The concept of religion did not exist until 15th/16th century

This article says: "The concept of "religion" was formed in the 16th and 17th centuries. Sacred texts like the Bible, the Quran, and others did not have a word or even a concept of religion in the original languages and neither did the people or the cultures in which these sacred texts were written".

This is so incredibly wrong, the Quran clearly mentions the word "religion" in https://quran.com/3/19 F-bark (talk) 11:46, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

You've misunderstood the statement. Likewise, the Latin religio dates to antiquity. Please consult the cited sources before deciding you disagree with them. Remsense 🌈 论 01:59, 13 June 2025 (UTC)

I'm sorry but the sources seem to be repeating the same statement without elaborating.

Source 4: "Many languages do not even have a word equivalent to our word 'religion'; nor is such a word found in either the Bible or the Qur'an" - It very much does exist in the Quran, and it very much does mean religion, it's attested before the Quran when pre-Islamic Arabs referred to a monotheistic religion as "دين ابراهيم" - dīn Ibrāhīm or "The religion of Abraham", and is a word used by Arab scholars to describe all sorts of religions they came across during their conquest, one would be inclined to think that they did have at least a "concept" of religion.

Source 5: "Harrison, Peter (1990). 'Religion' and the Religions in the English Enlightenment. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 1. ISBN 978-0521892933. That there exist in the world such entities as 'the religions' is an uncontroversial claim...However, it was not always so. The concepts 'religion' and 'the religions', as we presently understand them, emerged quite late in Western thought, during the Enlightenment. Between them, these two notions provided a new framework for classifying particular aspects of human life" - This seems Eurocentric.

Source 7: "Although the Greeks, Romans, Mesopotamians, and many other peoples have long histories, the stories of their respective religions are of recent pedigree. The formation of ancient religions as objects of study coincided with the formation of religion itself as a concept of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries" - This seems to be talking about the study of ancient religions, and again, simply repeats what's in the article, the statement of an author on its own does not constitute a source sufficient enough to back such an extraordinary claim.

So, unless we expect people to read 3 papers and one book to understand what is actually meant by the simple phrase of "did not have a concept of religion" I'd appreciate it if you actually explained how I have misunderstood the statement and correct me please? Or better yet, make the statement in the article clearer as to avoid people misunderstanding it as I have? You'd be doing everyone a favor. F-bark (talk) 00:09, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

It's unfortunate that you disagree with the sources, but we're not going to publish your personal positions on Wikipedia in lieu of them. Remsense 🌈 论 00:11, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

And the sources so clearly cited can also be wrong, simply saying something does not make it true, no matter who said it, now please, can you enlighten me with the actual understanding of the statement? F-bark (talk) 00:13, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

I'm not going to dislodge a supposition you entered the conversation with and have yet to reliably cite yourself, because your personal education is irrelevant to improving the content of the article. Remsense 🌈 论 00:14, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Humor me for a second, if the source says the Qu'an did not have a word for religion, but then you find in the Qur'an an exact word for religion....isn't that enough of a citation?

And again, the sources simply repeat the statement, where is the actual evidence in them? Can I make up my own source and then cite it and tell you "Sorry pal, but the source says what it says, it therefore must be true!" F-bark (talk) 00:18, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

I'm at the very least disputing the "Quran" in that paragraph, the Quran clearly has a word for religion as evident in https://quran.com/3/19 F-bark (talk) 00:22, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Assuming you do want to understand the research and reasoning underlying the claim, there is an entire section of the well-known Before Religion by Brent Nongbri that discusses the semantic evolution of the Arabic term dīn throughout history, spanning pp. 39–45.

It is an entire section, so I won't be copy-pasting it, but if you can't find a copy and want help procuring it, try WP:RX.

Remsense 🌈 论 00:38, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Can you stop retroactively editing your replies like an idiot? Thank you F-bark (talk) 00:29, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Nah. Remsense 🌈 论 00:32, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

Aight, it was worth a shot I guess, I've removed "The Quran" from that paragraph, it appears 90 times in the Quran in a context that you and I would agree is exactly what religion means to us, here are just 3:

https://quran.com/al-baqarah/132

https://quran.com/al-baqarah/256

https://quran.com/3/19 F-bark (talk) 00:35, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

I've checked the pages you sent (36-45) (you seemed to have deleted the reply? Why?), and I stand corrected.

I also apologize for calling you an idiot, regardless of how correct or not you were, I should not have done that. F-bark (talk) 00:50, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

I didn't delete the reply, I don't think? In any case, apology accepted of course. I really appreciate that, it's not trivial and shows character. Remsense 🌈 论 00:56, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

The sources do state that religion is a modern concept. It does not have equivalents in other langauges religion is Latin in origin. Nongbri states that in the Quran, the Arabic word din is often translated as religion in modern translations, but up to the mid-1600s translators expressed din as "law." Many cultures do not have packaged concepts like we do in the west either. An interesting case is that of Japan, where the Japanese did not know how to traslate relgion in trading contracts with the US - Josephson, Jason Ananda (2012). The Invention of Religion in Japan. University of Chicago Press. ISBN 978-0-226-41234-4. Ramos1990 (talk) 02:21, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

References