Talk:Gone with the Wind (film)/Archive 5
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Rape scene
Saying Rhett intends to "Have sex with" Scarlett in the plot is inaccurate, and should be changed to rape. Stephanie921 (talk)
- No.198.161.4.52 (talk)
Why not? Stephanie921 (talk)
- Because he does not actually say his intention is to rape her. He insists on his conjugal rights. The audience does not see the encounter itself. This has already been discussed in some depth at Talk:Gone with the Wind (film)/Archive 2#The marital "rape" in the plot summary. As you can see from that discussion I have some sympathy for your point of view, but he emphatically does not say he will rape her, and the rape itself takes place offscreen, which introduces ambiguity. Betty Logan (talk)
- "Insists on his conjugal rights" may have been how people put it in those days, but nowadays people would call it marital rape. PatGallacher (talk)
- "Insists on his conjugal rights" may have been how people put it in those days, but nowadays people would call it marital rape. PatGallacher (talk)
- I generally agree with @User:PatGallacher, although ofc women wouldn't have used the phrase 'insists on his conjugal rights' in those days. And @User:Betty Logan I think he does say he'll rape her. She says she wants him to leave her alone, he grabs her against his will and manipulates her (saying "It's not that easy Scarlett") before saying "you've always turned me down while you chased after Ashley Wilkes, while you dreamed of Ashley Wilkes. Well this is one night you're not turning me down!"before carrying her up the stairs in her arms. He clearly states that he think he's entitled to her, and that she should pay for "chas[ing] after Ashley". He says he's not going to listen to her even if she doesn't want to be romantic with him and carries her upstairs using a traditionally romantic position. The next morning she is euphoric - and not just in a good mood unlike the prior night. I don't think that's ambiguous Stephanie921 (talk)
- You are welcome to your interpretation, but without actually seeing the encounter play out then it is precisely that: an interpretation. Regardless of whether he "rapes" her or not, there are several problems in describing his intentions as "rape": the concept of marital rape is a modern day definition, and not one understood by 1939 audiences and certainly not by the characters at the time the film is set, and since the encounter is not seen then it is ambiguous anyway. The plot summary accurately relays what we actually see and hear, without imposing our own—essentially revisionist interpretation—on the sequence of events. The article discusses the interpretation of the scene in detail later on and does not shy away from the fact that its now often perceived as "marital rape". This issue has been discussed at length previously and an appropriate compromise was reached. Betty Logan (talk)
- i agree with you, Betty. i am sorry if i risk, a little, but it must be pointed out, that hollywood was then, and is now, run by men. and those in power tend to get the final word, and the source must be considered. rhett cannot demand something that scarlett does not want. it is that simple. so rape is the word. also, of course she will be photographed/depicted as having an afterglow. men directed this movie. 74.109.247.243 (talk)
- to drive the point home, i must compare this movie to a 2020 ip that represents the total opposite of this movie, except in one sense. Bridgerton (which received far less awards from the male(one race)-run academy), also has a questionable scene. The production is run by a woman, and the scene is done on-screen. the woman tricks the man into impregnating her. he was insistent on not having children. that can be defined as marital rape. so we must have consistency with gone with the wind. 74.109.247.243 (talk)
- i meant to say, i agree with Stephanie, not Betty, with clarification that, afterglow of scarlett is an interpretation selznick wanted us to feel, How Leigh felt about it, remains to be seen. 74.109.247.243 (talk)
- Betty is correct, the film did not follow Rhett and Scarlett up the stairs so the audience has no idea what occurred next. It would be original analysis to make a guess that he raped her and then include that guess in the text in Wikipedia's voice. Randy Kryn (talk)
- sometimes evidence talks. her afterglow, women rebelling of a lack of female hollywood directors, is evidence of what happened. 74.109.247.243 (talk)
- The plot summary not only has a role in relaying the events of the film, but also in how those events are framed. We as an audience do not see a rape play out on screen, regardless of whether or not one occurred. The scene before Scarlett is carted off to bed suggests she is going to be raped, but the scene when she wakes up suggests that perhaps she was not. The article does not shy away from the issue: the plot summary summarizes the events we witness in the film and we have an entire section in the article that dissects the "rapey" nature of the scene, with appropriate sourcing. The purpose of a plot summary in an article about a work of fiction is to support the encyclopedic prose, so even if she was raped the ambiguous way in which the scene plays out is important context. Betty Logan (talk)
- that is political. a movie can be directed to appease one political side, hence the gatekeeping against women and black studio heads. that is the non fictional part about it. If not, why not hire tons more women and black studio heads, instead of the rash of taking away jobs from them? The attempt towards objectivity is missed. To put it bluntly, if a man has sex with a woman, they, each, have a different assessment. 74.109.247.243 (talk)
- @74.109.247.243 I read your post 17 times and still don't understand what you're getting at 2604:2D80:560D:4900:84FB:109C:6133:56FC (talk)
- People, it’s only a movie. But I understand the concern, rape is a serious issue. I think the context of the comment in 1939 was different. Lord knows, that was also the eve of the worst crimes against humanity ever recorded. 136.26.42.25 (talk)
- People, it’s only a movie. But I understand the concern, rape is a serious issue. I think the context of the comment in 1939 was different. Lord knows, that was also the eve of the worst crimes against humanity ever recorded. 136.26.42.25 (talk)
- @74.109.247.243 I read your post 17 times and still don't understand what you're getting at 2604:2D80:560D:4900:84FB:109C:6133:56FC (talk)
- that is political. a movie can be directed to appease one political side, hence the gatekeeping against women and black studio heads. that is the non fictional part about it. If not, why not hire tons more women and black studio heads, instead of the rash of taking away jobs from them? The attempt towards objectivity is missed. To put it bluntly, if a man has sex with a woman, they, each, have a different assessment. 74.109.247.243 (talk)
- The plot summary not only has a role in relaying the events of the film, but also in how those events are framed. We as an audience do not see a rape play out on screen, regardless of whether or not one occurred. The scene before Scarlett is carted off to bed suggests she is going to be raped, but the scene when she wakes up suggests that perhaps she was not. The article does not shy away from the issue: the plot summary summarizes the events we witness in the film and we have an entire section in the article that dissects the "rapey" nature of the scene, with appropriate sourcing. The purpose of a plot summary in an article about a work of fiction is to support the encyclopedic prose, so even if she was raped the ambiguous way in which the scene plays out is important context. Betty Logan (talk)
- sometimes evidence talks. her afterglow, women rebelling of a lack of female hollywood directors, is evidence of what happened. 74.109.247.243 (talk)
- Betty is correct, the film did not follow Rhett and Scarlett up the stairs so the audience has no idea what occurred next. It would be original analysis to make a guess that he raped her and then include that guess in the text in Wikipedia's voice. Randy Kryn (talk)
- i meant to say, i agree with Stephanie, not Betty, with clarification that, afterglow of scarlett is an interpretation selznick wanted us to feel, How Leigh felt about it, remains to be seen. 74.109.247.243 (talk)
- to drive the point home, i must compare this movie to a 2020 ip that represents the total opposite of this movie, except in one sense. Bridgerton (which received far less awards from the male(one race)-run academy), also has a questionable scene. The production is run by a woman, and the scene is done on-screen. the woman tricks the man into impregnating her. he was insistent on not having children. that can be defined as marital rape. so we must have consistency with gone with the wind. 74.109.247.243 (talk)
- i agree with you, Betty. i am sorry if i risk, a little, but it must be pointed out, that hollywood was then, and is now, run by men. and those in power tend to get the final word, and the source must be considered. rhett cannot demand something that scarlett does not want. it is that simple. so rape is the word. also, of course she will be photographed/depicted as having an afterglow. men directed this movie. 74.109.247.243 (talk)
- You are welcome to your interpretation, but without actually seeing the encounter play out then it is precisely that: an interpretation. Regardless of whether he "rapes" her or not, there are several problems in describing his intentions as "rape": the concept of marital rape is a modern day definition, and not one understood by 1939 audiences and certainly not by the characters at the time the film is set, and since the encounter is not seen then it is ambiguous anyway. The plot summary accurately relays what we actually see and hear, without imposing our own—essentially revisionist interpretation—on the sequence of events. The article discusses the interpretation of the scene in detail later on and does not shy away from the fact that its now often perceived as "marital rape". This issue has been discussed at length previously and an appropriate compromise was reached. Betty Logan (talk)
- I generally agree with @User:PatGallacher, although ofc women wouldn't have used the phrase 'insists on his conjugal rights' in those days. And @User:Betty Logan I think he does say he'll rape her. She says she wants him to leave her alone, he grabs her against his will and manipulates her (saying "It's not that easy Scarlett") before saying "you've always turned me down while you chased after Ashley Wilkes, while you dreamed of Ashley Wilkes. Well this is one night you're not turning me down!"before carrying her up the stairs in her arms. He clearly states that he think he's entitled to her, and that she should pay for "chas[ing] after Ashley". He says he's not going to listen to her even if she doesn't want to be romantic with him and carries her upstairs using a traditionally romantic position. The next morning she is euphoric - and not just in a good mood unlike the prior night. I don't think that's ambiguous Stephanie921 (talk)
Length in minutes
The article says, "... including the overture, intermission, entr'acte, and exit music, Gone with the Wind lasts for 234 minutes (although some sources put its full length at 238 minutes) ...". Why is the length of the film in minutes in dispute? I realize that WP:NOR means that we can't just get a stopwatch and time the film ourselves, but surely some reliable source has published a length which is the same number of minutes we would find if we did time the film ourselves. -- Metropolitan90 (talk)
- Well you would think so, but unfortunately the discrepancy does exist. I suspect there could be a couple of reasons: i) the roadshow release may have had slightly longer musical elements; ii) the film has played in different formats (i.e. 35mm/70mmm) which may be a factor. But in short, I don't know. Wikipedia should avoid coming down on either side in a debate, but it would be helpful if we could answer this question directly in the article. Betty Logan (talk)
- In the similar case of Fantasia (1940), some of its theatrical re-releases were considerably shorter than the original version. They achieved this "by removing most of Taylor's commentary and the Toccata and Fugue". The 1946 re-release kept all of the animated segments, but shortened the live-action scenes involving "Taylor, Stokowski, and the orchestra". With a similar mentality, certain released versions of Gone with the Wind may have been edited to remove part of the music or other elements considered non-essential. Dimadick (talk)
- I didn’t realize the movie was almost 4 hours long! Maybe I should watch it again. 136.26.42.25 (talk)
- I didn’t realize the movie was almost 4 hours long! Maybe I should watch it again. 136.26.42.25 (talk)
- In the similar case of Fantasia (1940), some of its theatrical re-releases were considerably shorter than the original version. They achieved this "by removing most of Taylor's commentary and the Toccata and Fugue". The 1946 re-release kept all of the animated segments, but shortened the live-action scenes involving "Taylor, Stokowski, and the orchestra". With a similar mentality, certain released versions of Gone with the Wind may have been edited to remove part of the music or other elements considered non-essential. Dimadick (talk)
Box office
According to https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0031381/ the box office is $402,382,193 Pborri (talk)
- Nobody knows precisely how much it made. Different sources give different figures, but they are all over $390 million. Betty Logan (talk)