Talk:Egyptian pound/Archives/2022

2012 2013 2017 2022

Reversion of recent changes: WP:BRD discussion

MatthewS. boldly reverted all the recent changes, giving as reason that consensus had not been reached. I disagree, given the discussions above. But let's look at the specific changes that are found objectionable:

1. See also Pound (currency) is far more useful and relevant than Distinguish Pound sterling since there is no credible need for that distinction.
2. To caption the image of a banknote that reads "200 Pounds" as obverse of £200 banknote is just wrong, a complete clanger. Worldwide, the symbol £ without further distinction means sterling, full stop. You may argue that it should say "Egyptian pounds" rather than LE but, given that previous Egyptian banknotes have used the style "LE" (in various typefaces), a convincing case would be needed to argue is not reasonable to use the most accepted abbreviation.
3. Ersh to "ersh" Yes, it should be capital E.
4. £1, £5, £10, £20, £50, £100, £200 to use LE instead: see item #2
5. A dispute over whether to write 25pt v 25 PT ranks as pretty trivial but no doubt one of you has a citation for your preferred version? But see item #8 below.
6. A contemporary E£1 coin v A contemporary LE 1 coin: the former is clearly wrong. It is a backronym. LE means Lira Egyptienne. The £ in £E is a modified L as a fashion statement. On the other hand, E£ is a fiction generated by a someone who speaks only English "correcting" it to mean "Egyptian Pound", analogous to (mis)reading GBP as Great British Pound. It is simply illiterate and is not used in Egypt or indeed anywhere that has the first clue what they are doing. Note that Investopedia is not a WP:RS and to cite it is probably a case of Citogenesis.
7. E£ and £E are also commonly used. Deleted per preceding point. Citation definitely needed for "commonly used"
8. LE100 v LE 10. Yes, MatthewS. is correct that the norm in English is no space between the currency symbol and the number ($10, £10, €10). But LE is not a currency sign, it is an abbreviation and in general, Wikipedia accepts national conventions unless it would lead to misunderstanding. This carefully chosen example from the Daily News Egypt clearly prefers the embedded space, whichever abbreviation is chosen. So a citation or multiple counter-examples are needed to contradict the one we have. And a convincing justification for cultural imperialism.

Have I covered all the bases? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:42, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Ersh, piaster, piastre, pound, dollar, cent, etc don’t need to be capitalized. No spaces are used between the currency sign and the number following it. These mistakes alone disqualify you as the decider when it comes to currency signage in English. But in all cases, £ does not mean “Sterling” (what’s your source?), it simply means the pound currency as much as $ means dollar. Any dollar. So £ means any pound as well. LE does not stand for “Lira Egyptienne”, in fact it stands for “livre égyptienne”; yet another mistake that disqualifies. I’m sorry by consensus I mean that both sides of the argument (basically me and you guys’ side) must agree to change what was already in place, and that did not happen. So the originally published article stays in place until this is done. That what “consensus” means. It doesn’t mean two people side together and force their edits on the world. MatthewS. (talk) 19:11, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

JMF made a slight mistake over the exact words "LE" refers to, but he was essentially correct in noting that it is an initialism. £ is a stylistic choice over L (until the late 1930s even amounts denominated in sterling pounds were still occasionally being abbreviated to l in prose, this style is now considered obsolete), the advantage of £ is that it makes clear the abbreviation is referring to a currency and not to some other type of abbreviation. When the pound sign is used for the Egyptian pound all the examples I have been able to find simply replace L with £, turning LE into £E. The issue with comparing £ to $ is that $ is of unknown origins, it is not known whether it is actually a letter or just a scribble that resembles a letter. One theory is that it represents the motto banner wrapped around the pillars of the Spanish coat of arms on old Spanish peso coins. The traditional text abbreviation of "dollar" is "dol.". Many sources on Wikisource demonstrate this, such as this example:

I inquire, has the Government of the U.S. ever expended one dollar to support that government? No! with the exception of the U.S. officers in the Territory a little over one year; 20,000 dols. for the erection of public buildings; and 5,000 dols. for a library.

Unlike $, £ has a clear and undisputed source: a script form of the letter L as an abbreviation of livre or libra. While it is not entirely clear exactly when or where it originated (either England or France, sometime before the late 17th century), it is not in dispute that it is a stylised L. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 20:08, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree that £ is a stylized L for libra (pound in Latin). So I don’t see what’s the issue here, there’s no disagreement as to how £ came to be. And not knowing the history of the $ sign is of no importance whatsoever to the fact that it does now stand for “dollar”. And £ stands for “pound” in the same way. So we’re comparing currency sign to currency sign. No apples and oranges here. In English you put the country abbr. before the sign, not after. MatthewS. (talk) 20:15, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Need I mention these again? £A, £C, £M, £NZ, £P and £SA. The only notable example of a currency which used £ placing the disambiguating abbreviation before £ is the punt (IR£), all the others invariably placed the abbreviating letter(s) after the pound sign. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 20:24, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, in the English language, there are no spaces after currency signs, LE or E£ or or whatever. This isn’t a matter of “national convention”, it’s simply English language. For example in English we don’t put a space before the question mark (e.g. “What’s your name?”) vs in French for instance where a space is required before a question mark (e.g. “Comment t’appelles tu ?”). So if Daily News Egypt puts a space after LE, Daily News Egypt is mistaken. MatthewS. (talk) 19:38, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

The reason Wikipedia's style guide places a space between a currency abbreviation and the numerals is to clearly separate them. Some letters closely resemble numerals and placing a non-breaking space in between makes it easier on readers' eyes. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 20:12, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

[edit conflict] MatthewS.:

First, when a WP:BRD discussion is called, you should not simply re-impose your bold edit. That is WP:DISRUPTIVE editing.

Second, I listed eight points of dispute.

• You ignore #1. I assume you don't disagree.
• On #2 (and #4), you assert that an unqualified £ means any pound anywhere without any evidence and contrary to accepted norms worldwide. None of the sources produced thus far shows an unqualified pound sign being used to mean an Egyptian pound.
  • More to the point, you replaced LE (which was used on Egyptian banknotes, by the Central Bank of Egypt and by Egyptian media in favour of your preference for £E [or worse still, E£). So who is exactly who is imposing their unsourced personal preferences?
• #3 is trivial (I thought I was agreeing with you that it was a silly change).
• On #5 and #8 (space or no space), seriously? TCG produced the Egypt Daily News: I your infinite wisdom, you declare that they are wrong and you are right. It really is not worth arguing about but let's see your contrary examples.
• on #6 and #7, you do not produce any evidence that E£ "is commonly used"

To achieve consensus requires logical debate on the substantive points. Please do so. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:24, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Even the Central Bank of Egypt places a space between LE and the numerals. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 20:29, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

I didn’t “reimpose” anything, I simply restored what was already in place for years on the Wikipedia article for Egyptian pound. Notice “pound,” not “Pound”. Just plain simple English. MatthewS. (talk) 20:39, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Just because an error has been unnoticed for years does not make it any less of an error. Case in point: a dictionary once included a "ghost word" in error. The error was not completely expunged until 1947, 13 years after it first appeared in print. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 20:43, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Also “commonly used” isn’t exactly accurate so I did remove that phrase. MatthewS. (talk)

Protection requested

I have made a protection request in response to the unconstructive reversions that are being made. I implore @MatthewS. to engage in the discussion rather than trying to shunt his preference through like a bulldozer. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 23:20, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

I went ahead and requested protection for the original version of the page, because of @TheCurrencyGuy ‘s insistence on changing things without a consensus based solely on his personal preferences. MatthewS. (talk) 02:23, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Consensus is about reaching conclusions using valid sources. It always involves compromise. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 02:43, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

@MatthewS. is simply refusing to engage, hoping his blunt force reversions will simply make me give up and let him have his opinion. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 13:52, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

The current edit war

I have tried extremely hard to try to resolve this through discussion. I have to hand it to @MatthewS., he's determined if nothing else! I only wish he would put his obvious tenacity to better use. I want to clear this up once and for all using facts, not opinion.

• The Egyptian Central Bank and the Egyptian English language press usually use LE as the abbreviation for the currency
• Egyptian banknotes and stamps generally use LE, sometimes in a script form (ℒℰ) or a proprietary symbol merging the two characters into one
• When the pound sign is used, it is almost always inserted into the existing LE format, replacing L with £ (eg. £E, or £e)
• The only reliable source using an unqualified pound sign with no disambiguating abbreviation I have been able to find is a single postage stamp from the 1930s
• The styles I have been able to find "in the wild" are:

LE, L.Eg., ℒℰ, £E and £e for the pound

PT and 𝒫𝒯 for the piastre

Are any of these points in dispute? TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 04:23, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

@MatthewS.'s habit of constantly reverting any changes at all to the article (even when they are verifiable and sourced) is extremely frustrating. He appears to regard "consensus" as meaning "when I agree with it". I have made concessions against my personal preferences (replacing £E with LE for example), but so far MatthewS. has offered no willingness to compromise at all. The original version of the article was full of loose ends, unsourced material and conjecture. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 13:34, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

My goodness, I just checked the edit history. MatthewS. has been "sitting" on this article making constant reversions to any changes he personally does not like since 2006. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 13:42, 3 August 2022 (UTC)