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Split Proposal

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It has been proposed that Cave Johnson Couts be split from the Camp Salvation (Calexico) article, as per the WP:SPLIT the proposed for it was on October 2022. In response, I have created a dedicated page for him. Here what was briefly, Discussed Issac I Navarro (talk) 03:46, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle talk 07:55, 25 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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  • ... that 19th-century Californian pioneer Cave Johnson Couts was acquitted thrice of attacking and murdering Indians, mourners at a funeral, and a former Mexican revolutionary, respectively?
  • Source: Cave Couts [...] was also a man with a violent temper [...] whipping two Indians [...] one of whom died [...] with an order to stop the funeral; when the party refused they fired into the crowd. One man died [...] he shot and killed Juan Mendoza, former majordomo at Rancho Guajome and a Mexican revolutionary. Mendoza [...] Couts secured a third acquittal. —-[1]
Created by Issac I Navarro (talk), Aaron Liu (talk), and Yuchitown (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

Aaron Liu (talk) 03:46, 7 April 2025 (UTC).[reply]

  • How about something a bit more specific and tighter: that 19th-century Californian pioneer Cave Johnson Couts whipped a man to death, and was acquitted because one member of his jury was not a citizen? DS (talk) 15:28, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    That seems far more mundane than the situation actually was as it omits that the whipped was also not a citizen. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:40, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • How about: that Cave Johnson Couts, who helped shape early San Diego agriculture, was also tried and acquitted for killing a Native laborer, firing on funeral mourners, and shooting a former revolutionary?
  • … that Cave Johnson Couts, a respected Californian judge and rancher, was thrice acquitted of killing men—including one at a funeral—despite overseeing forced Indigenous labor and corporal punishment on his estate?
  • … Cave Johnson Couts, a West Point–trained officer turned California judge, was acquitted of three killings—including one at a funeral—despite his record of violence and autocratic rule over Indigenous laborers? Issac I Navarro (talk) 16:02, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I like your first one: How about ALT8: that Cave Johnson Couts, a pioneer San Diego judge and rancher, was also separately acquitted for shooting a former revolutionary, firing on funeral mourners, and whipping a native laborer to death? The native labor case had him acquitted during the grand jury phase, i.e. it didn't go to trial. I'm also a bit concerned that "revolutionary" could be interpreted as an American revolutionary in the 1780s' war. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:40, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, how about we specify that Mendoza was his former majordomo? The fact that Mendoza had been a participant in the Mexican Revolutionary War is nowhere near as relevant to the incident as the fact that he had been one of Couts' household employees. (I've edited the article to accommodate this.) So, ALT8A: that Cave Johnson Couts, a pioneer San Diego judge and rancher, was also separately acquitted for shooting a former household employee, firing on funeral mourners, and whipping a native laborer to death? DS (talk) 18:50, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That's very unclear. How about "his former head servant"? Aaron Liu (talk) 12:30, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear: I suggested "household employee" rather than "majordomo", and you are saying that you would prefer "head servant" over "household employee"? Confirm? DS (talk) 16:12, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and add "his". Doesn't the majordomo article say it's a head servant? Aaron Liu (talk) 01:33, 6 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, fine, go with 'his majordomo' (or 'his former majordomo', your choice). DS (talk) 18:19, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think "majordomo" is understandable enough. Is there reason not to use "head servant"? Aaron Liu (talk) 18:21, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Because the term 'servant' implies and connotes some things and we don't know if those applied to Mendoza. DS (talk) 04:00, 8 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any connotations that the definition of "majordomo" doesn't suggest. Could you give some example connotations? "Majordomo" is quite an obscure word and thus way less attractive than any common synonym. How about "foreman"? Aaron Liu (talk) 20:44, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Foreman" it is. DS (talk) 21:26, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Alright! Putting this here to make it easier for the reviewer: ALT9: that Cave Johnson Couts, a pioneer San Diego judge and rancher, was also separately acquitted for shooting his foreman, firing on funeral mourners, and whipping a native laborer to death? Source: Same as ALT0 + this one for Mendoza being "his former ranch foreman" Aaron Liu (talk) 14:29, 11 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: Done.

Overall: A few sentences need citing:

  • He would kept his loyalty with the Union rather than Confederacy during the Civil War. (Also needs rephrasing for grammar.)
  • Couts was 6 feet 3 inches tall and weighed over 200 pounds.
  • He also conducted surveys and created maps of the town of San Diego, where he honored his future father-in-law by naming some places, including Juan Street.

The DYK template says "Does the article contain at least one citation to a reliable source for each paragraph and direct quote?" which is fulfilled, but it would be nice if these were also cited.

  • I'm surprised you don't write about the way Ysidora literally fell into his arms when they met, as described in the San Diego History Center.
  • I took the liberty of changing "was thrice acquitted of his violent temper" to "was thrice acquitted of crimes from his violent temper", I hope that was what you intended
  • I also removed a "failed verification" note, since that same source seems to cite it adequately.
  • I'm approving ALT9, but it is a bit long at 187 chars. What if we remove the words "pioneer" and "also"? I think the latter doesn't add anything, and the former add a little, but not enough, and even slightly weakens the hook. GRuban (talk) 17:22, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks! Sure, let's omit "also". How about "judge and pioneer"? Looks like an IP repeatedly warned of vandalism just five days prior made the edit with all the unsourced sentences mentioned above while I was busy; reverted. I'm not sure where I would fit the Ysidora thing. Your changes look good! Aaron Liu (talk) 17:57, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
     GRuban:*ALT91: ... that Cave Johnson Couts, a San Diego judge and pioneer, was separately acquitted for shooting his foreman, firing on funeral mourners, and whipping a native laborer to death? Source: Same as ALT9 Aaron Liu (talk) 18:00, 22 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Really like "pioneer", eh? OK. I guess ALT91 is even better than ALT9. --GRuban (talk) 04:09, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]


Joshua Bean inclusion?

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Hey all, I came across a piece of information that might be relevant for inclusion in the article, I was thinking of saying something along the lines if relevant as — (During his tenure as mayor of San Diego, Joshua Bean was involved in a controversial transaction in which he attempted to transfer ownership of City Hall and portions of the city’s pueblo lands to himself and Lieutenant Cave J. Couts. Although the legality of the sale was disputed, the property was ultimately restored to the city.)

However, the only source I’ve located so far is from the San Diego Police Historical Association Museum, which seems to have drawn from the Wikipedia article on Joshua Bean itself: http://www.sdpolicemuseum.com/Joshua-Bean.html. So, as of now, it may be circular. If anyone can help locate a primary or third-party source to substantiate this, it could strengthen the article. Issac I Navarro (talk) 15:38, 1 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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