Talk:Burgundian State

Constitutional status

The following appears at the bottom of the article, but I think it should be in the lead:

For the most part of its history, the Burgundian State was not a sovereign state. The dukes of Burgundy were de jure the vassals of the king of France and the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, even if de facto they were true sovereigns.

The article speaks of a "great principality between France and the Empire", but it was in both. Srnec (talk) 15:10, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

In the lead, I added this:

a complex of territories (...) composed of French and imperial fiefs

I think it is enough. You're right about the "great principality", I do not have a better title for this part so I let someone else change it. Praundo (talk) 22:01, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Proposal to update emblem to final version used under Charles the Bold

I propose replacing the current emblem (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundian_State#/media/File%3ABandera_cruz_de_Borgo%C3%B1a_3.svg), which represents a version used under Philip the Good, with the final version used during the reign of Charles the Bold, the last sovereign Duke of Burgundy (1467–1477).

The proposed design is this: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Military_flag_of_the_Burgundian_state_under_Duke_Charles_the_Bold.jpg It is a military flag of the Burgundian State that includes the red Cross of Saint Andrew surrounded by fire-steels, sparks, and flint stones — emblematic elements specific to Charles the Bold and the final phase of the Burgundian State (although some of these symbols pre-date Charles.)

This emblem is:

Historically accurate for the final period (1467–1477) of the Burgundian State; Well-attested in period sources, including artifacts and paintings; Less ambiguous than the current image, which was later adopted and reused by the Spanish monarchy and various European military entities, and is therefore misleading as a representation of the Burgundian State per se. Visual and scholarly sources that support the Charles the Bold version include:

https://blog.nationalmuseum.ch/en/2020/06/the-battle-of-grandson/ (Swiss museum material documenting the grandson battle)

https://blog.nationalmuseum.ch/en/2024/06/the-battle-of-murten/ (Swiss museum material documenting the Murten battle)

https://permalink.nationalmuseum.ch/100126102 (historical document describing the Burgundy-Swiss war)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/23237388@N06/18676793305/ (artefact from the period)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/23237388@N06/10174903325/in/dateposted/ (artefact from the period)

https://www.pba-auctions.com/lot/11675/2160955?npp=20& (artefact from the period)

https://www.giquelloetassocies.fr/en/lot/160766/28120725-infantrymans-charge-burgundian-territories-circa-1470-75-h (artefact from the period)

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Abb-2-Schild-eines-burgundischen-Speertraegers-mit-rotem-Andreas-Kreuz-sowie_fig1_334857616 (artefact from the period)

https://picryl.com/media/pavise-with-st-andrews-cross-af9618

https://devise.saprat.fr/embleme/fusil-1 (artefact from the period)

Given that Charles the Bold was the last sovereign of an independent Burgundian State, and this emblem was used at the height of its territorial and military power, I believe it is the most appropriate and historically grounded version to represent the state in the infobox. A compromise could also be reached by displaying multiple flags in a timeline or by clarifying the current one’s temporal scope in the caption.

Open to discussion.Clementrossignollagandre (talk) 23:42, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

There are two problems with what you are suggesting. Firstly, you are entirely reliant on your observation of primary sources to support this design. What secondary sources can you cite per WP:SECONDARY? As Wikipedia articles should reflect reliable secondary sources rather than editor interpretation of primary sources, that doesn't work. Secondly, even if you have secondary sources, the design you propose was only used, according to what you say, by Charles the Bold. That reign covered just 10 years of the 119 years of Valois Burgundy. Why should that be put forward as in any way representative? DeCausa (talk) 21:56, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

Thank you very much for taking the time to share your feedback on my comments.

In addition to the historical depiction of the military flag and pictures of artifacts I previously shared, I am proposing the following secondary sources (WP:SECONDARY):

Publication: LA COUR DE BOURGOGNE ET L’EUROPE - Le rayonnement et les limites d’un modele culturel - Herausgegeben vom Deutschen Historischen Institut Paris

Research paper director: Werner Paravicini (History professor at University of Cologne, University of Kiel, Academy of Sciences in Göttingen)

Link: https://perspectivia.net/servlets/MCRFileNodeServlet/ploneimport_derivate_00012415/gesamt.pdf

EXTRACTS:

Page 164:

"The ordinance of 1473 stipulates how the distinctive signs and ensigns of each company must be organized. (…) The banners of the princes, under which people traditionally assembled, were no longer composed solely of heraldic elements, but were now accompanied by tactical rallying symbols (painted bows, crossbows), specific colors, and identifying numbers — even for small-scale units, a feature so remarkable that no equivalent has been found elsewhere. The intended goal seems to have been to make each unit more homogeneous, while encouraging a system that helped reduce social differences. To this example must be added the move toward 'uniformization' of the clothing worn by the men, as recommended in the ordinances. Each man-at-arms entering an ordonnance company was thus given a red velvet cross of Saint Andrew to affix to his war harness, and for archers, crossbowmen, and handgunners, a blue and white parti-colored jacket bearing the famous crimson cross. These insignia were worn permanently by the guards in even more luxurious versions. As signs of allegiance and rallying, these insignia contributed to the visual organization of the combatants and their companies. They were particularly useful for the establishment of another important element reminiscent of the Roman legions: the camp."

Page 300:

"In the frontispiece of the Chronicles and Conquests of Charlemagne by David Aubert, illustrated by Jean le Tavernier in 1460, the entirety of Burgundian society is represented through a few prominent figures. (…) But while the court dominates the scene from above, the emblem of Philip the Good—that is, the fire-steel (briquet)—has spread throughout the entire image, while his motto, Aultre n’auray (“I shall have no other”), is displayed on the gate of this imaginary city."

Publication: Armies of Medieval Burgundy 1364–1477

Author: Nicholas Michael

Publisher: Osprey Publishing, 1983

EXTRACTS:

Page 11:

“(1) The Abbeville ordinance: 31 July 1471. The Abbeville ordinance dealt with the organisation of the 1,250 lances that were recruited. (…) The equipment of certain members of the lance is prescribed:

The man-at-arms must have a full armour, three horses (two being ridden by the page and swordsman), a war saddle and chamfrain, and must have blue and white plumes on his sallet and chamfrain. He was also issued with a vermilion velvet St. Andrew's cross for his armour, but we are not told how it was to be fixed. The three mounted archers must each equip themselves with 30 arrows, a bow, a two-handed sword and a dagger. The swordsman must have a spear, a sword and a dagger, and both he and the archers were issued with a blue and white jacket bearing a red St. Andrew's cross.”

Page 32:

“The Plates (Research by G. A. Embleton and N. Michael). Not until the early 15th century did the St. Andrew's cross appear as a military emblem of Burgundy, and was adopted as a result of the civil war in France, no doubt to distinguish between the various partisans.”

Page 37:

“John the Fearless at first had a hop-leaf as his emblem, but when the French king displayed a ragged staff (symbolising his punitive intentions towards Burgundy), John adopted a plane with wood chippings as a reply in 1405. Under Philip the Good, the plane turned into a flint, or firestone, and the chippings into sparks, and Charles the Bold added the motto Je l'ay emprins — 'I have undertaken it.'”

There is a third source that was mentioned to me, but it is out of print and inaccessible:

Publication: Le Grand Armorial équestre de la Toison d'or

Author: Michel Pastoureau

Publisher: Éditions du Seuil

Link: https://a.co/d/fZAQR1F

Regarding your second point, I would like to clarify that the military flags of Burgundy evolved continuously since the Armagnac-Burgundy war. Under John the Fearless (1371–1419), the flag resembled a red X and was therefore very different from the flag illustrating the “Burgundian state” article. This latter design became widespread under Philip the Good (whose coat of arms is also used to illustrate the article and doesn't reflect the entirety of the Burgundian state's history). I am also discovering from the first and second sources that the fire-steel, flint, and sparks date back to Philip the Good — not Charles the Bold, as I previously mentioned. Note that I do not know of any illustration showing a Burgundian military flag from Philip the Good’s period, so I cannot guarantee what it looked like at that specific period of time.

The following image shows the aforementioned fire-steel and sparks on a portrait of Philip the Good:

https://art.rmngp.fr/fr/library/artworks/philippe-le-bon-duc-de-bourgogne-1396-1467_huile-sur-bois

Since multiple primary and secondary sources corroborate the flag I am proposing, I suggest using it. This would also allow a clearer distinction from the subsequent entities that used the saw-toothed Saint Andrew cross alone. Clementrossignollagandre (talk) 01:47, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

If these flags were changing then why do we need to use any of them in an article like this?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 04:19, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for your input.

First and foremost, it's important to note that the concept of a national flag—as we understand it today—did not emerge until the 16th century, notably with the separation of the Netherlands from Spain. In the context we’re discussing, we’re referring to a military banner rather than a national flag.

Second, it's entirely common for flags to evolve over time. The British, Canadian, and American flags, for example, have all changed significantly since the 18th century.

With that in mind, I propose using the flag that was in use under the last two Dukes of Burgundy. There are two main reasons for this:

To distinguish the Burgundian state from other subsequent entities that used similar versions of the Saint Andrew’s cross,

Because the most recent flag is typically the most recognizable and memorable—much like how people tend to remember the final imperial flag of the Qing dynasty over its earlier versions. If we were to illustrate the United States today with its first historical flag, it would likely cause confusion. Clementrossignollagandre (talk) 04:43, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

Why not just have nothing?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 05:23, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

Article name?

I just wonder whether Valois Burgundy would be more in keeping with WP:COMMONNAME. Of course, there is a degree of controversy attached to "Burgundian state" but, more to the point, it's use tends to be quite pointed: i.e. historians using it demonstarte their argument about the nature of the Burgundian monarchy rather than a natural name for it. Thoughts? DeCausa (talk) 22:40, 27 May 2025 (UTC)