Talk:Ancient Roman pottery/Archive 1

Archive 1

Pic sizes (copied from my talk)

I was just doing new page patrol, and came across your article. (It's about to roll off the end of the patrol window, so I dared assess something out of my historical area!) As I suspected, when examining the images, the original photos are much higher resolution. Is there any rule against making some, say 50 pixels wider, so that the images on the pottery can be discerned without the need for clicking to magnify them? Congradulations on your article! Piano non troppo (talk) 19:04, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! I've done some - what size is set on your preferences? Fixing at much over 300px is discouraged - it's in the images guideline somewhere. Personally I think the default size should be larger. I'm moving this to talk there. Johnbod (talk) 20:06, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Grave-goods

I have taken the liberty of modifying the sentence in the lead section that stated that Romans did not deposit grave-goods, because it was incorrect. Customs governing burial ritual, including the deposition of grave-goods, varied widely in different provinces of the Empire, and at different periods, but there are plenty of Roman inhumation burials that contain pots and other possessions, as well as cremations that are placed within pottery containers. It is perfectly true that complete vessels nearly always come from burial contexts, so I have stressed that, and added that sherd material (from which types, fabrics and techniques can be fully studied) is very abundant on Roman sites. I will add another sentence or two in the lead section at some point to emphasise that the study of pottery is one of the cornerstones of archaeological dating, but it has to be carefully worded; it's all too easy to write 1000 words on that theme before one has noticed what one is doing. AgTigress (talk) 12:23, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Sections and sub-sections

In general, I would say that moulded terracotta figures should be separated from functional pottery, and therefore not discussed here, though of course they can be referred to. Lamps, though many are mould-made, are functional utensils, so though Roman archaeologists don't lump them in with 'pots', I see no reason why they shouldn't have a sub-section under the general heading of Roman pottery.

Techniques, e.g. wheel-made, mould-made, relief-decorated in moulds, and the many different surface treatments, including lead-glazed wares, which many people do not associate with the Roman period, should have a separate section, too.

I'll tinker with some other aspects of this soon, probably starting with a sub-section on Western terra sigillata, that is, Arretine and Gaulish samian wares. I'll also start to get together some useful general references. The trouble about R. pottery studies is that references tend to be very much for the specialist reader alone, and in a variety of languages.

The article has got off to a good start, but there is a lot more to do. ;-) AgTigress (talk) 12:23, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks very much. Personally I'd rather keep the figurines in - unless they get a decent sized article to themselves. Would a rename to Ancient Roman ceramics help? Johnbod (talk) 13:17, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Let's just leave the terracottas in for the moment, then, and also leave the title as it is. If the pottery article ever reaches anything like the size and complexity required by the subject, people will probably be happy enough to hive them off! One could make a good case for a separate article on 'Greek and Roman terracottas', actually, which would be pretty extensive, with a date-range from about 8thC BC to 5thC AD, taking in many different styles, varying functions, a geographical range of the whole Roman Empire, with some important Roman regional types (e.g. Gaulish pipeclay figurines; Ptolemaic and Roman figurines from Egypt) and very complex iconography. So let's leave 'em alone for now!  :-) AgTigress (talk) 14:56, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Fine! The Greeks (as in most areas of ceramics) are better catered for already, with short articles on Greek terracotta figurines, and Tanagra figurine. Johnbod (talk) 15:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Lead section

I'd really like to start this off with a text something like the following:

Pottery is a key material in the dating and interpretation of archaeological sites from the Neolithic period onwards, and has been minutely studied by archaeologists for generations. In the Roman period, ceramics were produced and used in enormous quantities, and the literature on the subject, in numerous languages, is very extensive.

It is usual to divide Roman domestic pottery broadly into coarse wares and fine wares, the former being the everyday pottery jars, dishes and bowls that were used for cooking or the storage and transport of foods and other goods, and which were often made and bought locally, while the latter were the serving vessels or tableware, usually of more decorative and elegant appearance, which were made at specialised pottery workshops, and were often traded over substantial distances, not only within, but also between, different provinces of the Roman Empire. The manufacture of fine wares such as terra sigillata took place in large workshop complexes that were organised along industrial lines and produced highly standardised products that lend themselves well to precise and systematic classification.

Fired clay was also widely employed in the Roman period for architectural purposes, as structural bricks and tiles, and occasionally as architectural decoration, and for the manufacture of small statuettes and lamps. These are not normally classified under the heading ‘pottery’ by archaeologists, but the terracottas and lamps will be included in this article.

However, if I were to insert those paragraphs as the lead-in, I would need to change quite a bit in the existing lead section to remove repetitions, at least, and I don't quite like to do that without asking first. AgTigress (talk) 12:34, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I've done a hybrid version, keeping all the text above, but mixing it in differently. Does this work for you? I think the main article on such a large topic should keep a somewhat more populist approach than more detailed specific articles. You'll see I've put the 1st para above last, for example. Johnbod (talk) 13:04, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Neatly done, Johnbod! Thank you. I think that is already an improvement. The general point about pottery as an archaeological dating tool is fine near the end. AgTigress (talk) 14:21, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

'Other ceramics' section

Would it be okay for me to subdivide this clearly under 'Lamps', 'Terracottas' and 'Brick and Tile' (in that order), and start to expand some of them? I can do that more quickly than I can do the Fine wares/tablewares section. :-) We may eventually need a separate section on technical matters (clays, hand-made, thrown, moulded, decorative techiniques, firing techniques, kilns (built kilns, bonfire kilns...), temperatures, finishes, e.g. slips, vitreous glazes, burnishing, etc. etc., but I won't start that one yet, because some of it will come into the 'fine wares' section anyway. Above all, under both TS and similar types, and lamps, we need to emphasise the ceramic mass-production on an industrial scale that got under way in the Roman period, the known names of factories, their trading distributions. Oh dear, I feel faint. It all reminds me of why I turned away from Roman pottery studies about 30 years ago, towards jewellery and silverware! AgTigress (talk) 19:23, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Of course! We do have various very stubby articles in Category:Ancient Roman pottery. At some point it might be better to expand these with detailed stuff, but this article is still pretty short so it can all go here for now, maybew duplicated at the others as appropriate. Johnbod (talk) 00:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Lamps

I have made a start on this sub-section. More detail, and more specific references to come. :-) AgTigress (talk) 20:00, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Refs formatted. Can one give a typical figure for the diameter, or range, for the discus? Johnbod (talk) 21:06, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Discus diameters are on average about 5-6 cm, but there are individual lamps that are a good deal bigger. AgTigress (talk) 21:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, no, thinking about it again, more like 4-6 cm. Depends on the type.  :-) I'll try to expand the architectural section or the terracottas next. Anything to avoid the actual pottery... AgTigress (talk) 11:20, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I have now tidied up 'Lamps' a bit more. It could be expanded, of course, but it would be better to work on one of the other sections first. AgTigress (talk) 13:13, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Terracotta figurines

I have started to expand this section, too. There are a couple of references that need formatting. Really one needs to do separate paragraphs for the Italian, Greek, Asia Minor, Egyptian, Central Gaulish and Rhineland industries, but I can't face that just yet. AgTigress (talk) 17:41, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Fine wares

I have started on this section, and have a long way to go. AgTigress (talk) 12:55, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I have now got the basic shape of the fine wares section together, but I ought to tackle some of the Eastern Empire problems and some of the non-sigillata types. Later. AgTigress (talk) 14:48, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Coarse wares

The rather defeatist sentence recorded in this section at the moment is not all I am going to write! I have to work out how to subdivide -- typological, chronological or geographical, or some mind-bending combination of the three. Nobody has written a general reference work on Roman coarse pottery, probably because it can't be done, so I shall have to cite some of the regional and typological studies. Why on earth am I doing this? I must be mad. AgTigress (talk) 14:48, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Brick, tile, architectural uses

I have only just started on this -- needs more work. Where I have said (ref. pending) in connection with legionary antefixes, I want to insert a link to this relevant British Museum example from the BM database: http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectId=1360112&partId=1&orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database%2fmuseum_no__provenance_search.aspx&numpages=10&idNum=1911,0206.1&currentPage=1 But that's a monstrous URL. Advice needed! There are also another couple of references in this section that are still sitting in the text in round brackets. I'm sorry I still need so much help. AgTigress (talk) 14:34, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

One can get it down to http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectId=1360112&partId=1 just by chopping. Doesn't always work, but did this time. They should add stable url's like the MMA. Johnbod (talk) 20:00, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I see we have this pic on Commons btw. Johnbod (talk) 20:34, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. The pic taken in the showcase isn't great, but it would do.  :-) AgTigress (talk) 21:22, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

As mentioned under 'Pictures' below, I have now taken a good pic of the BM Legio XX antefix, but I haven't succeeded in uploading it yet. :-( AgTigress (talk) 17:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Pictures

I do have some 35 mm slides (my own copyright) which might be helpful for some sections, but although I know how to scan and digitise them, I have no idea how to upload them to Wikipedia. AgTigress (talk) 19:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Go to [1] - it's not too bad when you get used to it. Yours would be "entirely my own work". Let me know if you upload any (just link to one) & I'll check the categories etc. Johnbod (talk) 19:50, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Johnbod, what is the best sort of size for a jpg image for uploading? In terms of DPI when scanning a 35 mm image, rather than pixel widths, that is. I'm sorry that I am asking you to tell me how to do everything: you are very patient, and I am really grateful. I won't get into scanning slides just yet: I need to tackle some of those ghastly coarse ware pots first!  :) AgTigress (talk) 21:45, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure - I think they automatically reduce it to a maximum file size as part of the upload process, but I'm not sure what the figure is. I'll try to find out - ok does this make any sense to you? It doesn't make much to me - I'll ask User:Ealdgyth, who is a pro snapper. Commons is having some sort of technical bug just now, so its probably not the best time to upload anyway. Johnbod (talk) 21:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

When I do scans of things (rather than the stuff I shoot with a camera), I generall scan it at 300dpi (sometimes 600dpi if I think it might take it) and then upload the full size of the scan. I send up jpgs of the highest quality too. Some of the stuff uploaded is huge, but bigger is better, in most cases. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:01, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! Johnbod (talk) 22:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay, thanks to both of you. Not all of that link means much to me, Johnbod! For (paper) publication I have usually scanned 10 x 8 prints at 300 dpi, but the tiddly little 35 mm slides much higher, at 1200 dpi. Anyway, I have to find the little suckers first, so I'll try it out in due course. For now, I have done enough coarse wares for the day, and am going to bed... Thank you, everyone.  :-) AgTigress (talk) 22:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Ooh - while I think of it, Ealdgyth: if I took some museum pics, with a digital camera, to upload here, would 6 mill. pixels be all right? It's the most I can do, and I know those images publish fine on paper. AgTigress (talk) 22:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Images of things in any size are good. Generally most wikipedia pics are something like 400 pixels for most usage, so what you'd take would probably be fine. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:49, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks very much. Still quite a lot of writing to do first, though! AgTigress (talk) 11:31, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. I have now taken quite a few pics of pottery in the British Museum displays which I think will work in this article, but I haven't quite got the hang of uploading yet. I took a much better image of the tile antefix above, by the way. AgTigress (talk) 17:33, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Where's the upload giving trouble? I recommend uploading using as little info as they will allow, & then adding the description etc later. Johnbod (talk) 18:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay, Johnbod: does this work? http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_tile_antefix.jpg ? I was scared by all those codings for different kinds of licensing and stuff. If that's all right, do I just stick the URL into the 'Tiles etc.' section? I am going to write something about amphorae in a minute, but if that picture upload is all right, I'll do some more. Can one edit the picture description, because I forget whether the modern county for Denbighshire is Powys or Gwynedd — I'll have to look it up. AgTigress (talk) 20:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Hah, it's neither; it's Clwyd. I'll try editing it now! AgTigress (talk) 20:12, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I worked out how to insert my tile picture — but it appeared full size! Yikes! Hastily removed it again. AgTigress (talk) 20:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I have now uploaded another: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_pottery_from_Britain.jpg AgTigress (talk) 20:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Those two are fine. I've added categories - that antefix is "Department of Prehistory and Europe, British Museum", yes? We have a whole category of antefixes tucked away, I now see [2]. You can edit the description - it's good to add a location where appropriate. I just use the reccomended license category, but be aware that by uploading to commons you effectively make the uploaded version public domain. Johnbod (talk) 21:23, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, both P&E Dept. Some of the ones I took today, and will upload, are Greek & Roman Dept. How do I make 'em smaller to put into the article? I did try to look it up on Wikipedia's screeds of instructions, but failed. :-) AgTigress (talk) 21:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

On Commons they can (& should) be as big as you like, but in articles insert |thumb| after the filename, and then eg |200px| to force the size. See the examples in the article here; all that is fairly straightforward. Btw you can set the default size you see pics at in your "preferences" (top right of screen). I have mine set to 300px. There's much more at Wikipedia:Images, and other pages linked to there. Johnbod (talk) 23:37, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

It worked! Prepare yourselves for several new pics in this article! Would you mind very much if I were eventually to remove one that is currently there, the showcase of pottery and kiln furniture in a German museum? It is a bit small to be informative, anyway. I want to get in at least one other pic into the 'architectural' section, one into the terracottas (Gaulish pipeclay ones), a couple at least into the terra sigillata section, and the group of pots from Britain that you have already seen somewhere or other. AgTigress (talk) 08:32, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

No, sure. There are lots of good photos on Commons too, but finding them involves the mazes of the category system there. Johnbod (talk) 11:50, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm still pretty confused by the process of uploading pics to Wikimedia commons. Some, but not all, that I have uploaded so far have a thing on the page saying that they are not categorised. And I got into difficulties with one by apparently forgetting to put the licence thingy in, though I thought I did. I may have succeeded in adding it, but I'm not sure about anything. :-( It's this one: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_pottery_barbotine_cup.JPG AgTigress (talk) 19:43, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh, maybe the first ones have categories because you added them. I'm sorry I am giving you so much work.  :-( AgTigress (talk) 19:44, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

T'was me! All categories done as (dble bkts)Category:Ancient Roman pottery in Britain]]

(dble bkts)Category:Department of Prehistory and Europe, British Museum]]. Licence looks ok now. Johnbod (talk) 20:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Once again, thank you. I am still not quite clear where one puts the 'category' in to the picture file. Does it go in the 'other information' window? The new picture of the East Gaulish moulds at Rheinzabern is good. I still want to put in a few more pictures (African red slip dish, one of the glazed vessels, the little barbotine cup that gave me the licence trouble), and there are still more things I ought to write. How can one format pics to be in a position other than at the right side of the text? In due course, even more pics can be accommodated if I do a 'technology' section, but don't hold your breath. Again, thanks for all the help. AgTigress (talk) 09:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

right-aligned is the default; for left add |left. We can also add pictures to the gallery at the bottom - see those there already for the simple syntax. Or add "mini-galleries" with sections - as used for example in Medieval art. Johnbod (talk) 13:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Aha. I suppose I could add a couple of images to the gallery, anyway. There isn't really room for them in the text until I have written some more. AgTigress (talk) 14:42, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Categories for images

I found out where the 'categories' goes, after the 'licensing' bit. But some of my pics are Greek and Roman Dept, not Prehistory and Europe. This came up in red 'page does not exist' when I corrected it (on the African Red slip dish'. As you know, the names of BM departments keep being meddled with. I put 'Dept. of Greece and Rome', which is the current name, though it has been called 'Greek and Roman Antiquities' since 1860, when it first became a separate dept. I'm rambling. But at least I can now add the 'Ancient Roman Pottery' category myself if I upload any more.  :-) AgTigress (talk) 09:53, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The commons categories are a maze, but in cases like this you should be able to find the right categories by tracing the tree: "Category:Department of Prehistory and Europe, British Museum" is parented by "Category:British Museum collections by department", which, rightly or wrongly, contains "Category:Department of Graeco-Roman Antiquities, British Museum" and then "Category:Greek antiquities in the British Museum", parent of "Category:Ancient Greek pottery in the British Museum", plus a terracottas cat etc. NB also the by room categories, which imo should be used as well as, not instead of, a by type category. Most files don't use these, but they have a use I suppose. Ideally note the room no in the file description anyway, though these are all gilding the lily. It's easiest to keep multiple windows on wikipedia open, one or more to edit, others to research that sort of stuff & copy the category names from. Johnbod (talk) 13:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Crumbs. That all sounds rather mind-bending. But thanks! AgTigress (talk) 14:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

It sounds worse than it is - you just poke around the categories to see what's there. Johnbod (talk) 14:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

References

I have noticed that one of my references (ref. no.19) has been altered to put the name of the paper in italics, and the name of the journal (Antiquaries Journal) in ordinary type. The style I always follow for a paper in a journal is that the title goes in quotes, and the journal name in italics. Does Wikipedia have different rules? AgTigress (talk) 20:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I usually put both in italics, but there is no standard WP approach AFAIK, but they should be consistent within the article. Actually you originally put: "...the decoration. (ref. C.Johns, ‘Gaulish potters’ stamps’, Antoqiaries Journal 43 (1963), pp.288-28)." [3] & I was too thrown by the typo (perhaps there should be antoqiaries...) to italicise! Johnbod (talk) 21:37, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Oops! Don't blame you!  :-) AgTigress (talk) 21:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, there are still some footnote references stuck in the more recently-written pieces of text. I thought I had learned how to do the reference tags, but then it got complicated when I was adding things that were not yet in the list of references, so I gave up. Just explaining why I haven't done them properly. AgTigress (talk) 14:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I'll tidy them later. It doesn't affect the way you add each footnote whether the book is in references or not - but obviously they aren't useful to most readers if the book is not there. Adding the book to "References" is a conventional edit you can do before, after, or at the same time as adding the footnote (at least using the relatively simple method used here). Johnbod (talk) 17:55, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's what I thought, but I tried to add to the 'References' list a couple of days ago and it didn't work properly, so I lost heart. I am easily discouraged by computer things. AgTigress (talk) 21:56, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Done them all I think. Do more need to be at the bottom, rather than just in the notes? We don't normally have comments on books in the references section, so I've just taken the ones with pp numbers quoted to the bottom. On adding them youirself, try doing in 2 edits. It's nearly always the < stuff that causes trouble. Nb in WP refs always come after a punctuation mark. Johnbod (talk) 13:32, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for tidying up the references again. I am an instinctive footnote-writer (which is why I detest Harvard-style in-text references), so I am inclined to waffle and comment on books —though I think this can be helpful for readers. I'll try to get a grip of the referencing challenge, and remember about the positioning of punctuation. I was being sloppy because I knew you would come along and sort it out for me. :D AgTigress (talk) 22:24, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Mini-gallery

I've added one for the figurines. These can go up to 2 rows of 5 without disrupting the test, or that's my view anyway. Others could be done for other sections. Let me know what you think. Johnbod (talk) 18:28, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I hadn't realised one could do that. Yes, it works fine. Maybe I could add some samian pics that way, too. AgTigress (talk) 19:01, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I added another pipeclay figurine to the gallery, but put the Gaulish mother-goddess back in the text.  :) I don't seem to know that Hercules figure — are we sure it's a terracotta and not a small marble? I must check it, as it's apparently in the BM. AgTigress (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:15, 26 August 2010 (UTC).

Hmmm. Don't know. It was categorized as ceramic, but I can see it might not be. Merlin searches are no help either way, but I find them very eccentric in their results. If you think it looks stone, take it out; I'm sure there are others we can use. Johnbod (talk) 10:28, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I'll check next time I'm in, next week. My husband, who worked in the GR dept. for more than 40 years, couldn't remember for sure either!  :) AgTigress (talk) 11:17, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Got him! Reg. no. 1881.7-1.1 http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectId=465963&partId=1 (I searched on the number 1726, visible in the pic, which is obviously a Sculpture Catalogue number.) He is made of limestone. And look at the provenance! Greek statue, 2nd/3rd AD, found at Nineveh! Weird. I'll remove the pic.  :) AgTigress (talk) 11:39, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Well done - that only leaves the mystery of why a database search on "Herakles limestone", which I think I'd tried, picks up something else but not him! I'll add the link to the photo & recategorize on Commons. Johnbod (talk) 12:55, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

You'll see I've added a few more pics to round out the galleries, but do substitute anything else. We can also create more mini-galleries, & the final one could go to 3 or four rows at least. Johnbod (talk) 13:36, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I like the Dr.38 bowl and profile drawing: at least that gets in an illustration of a pot-drawing. I have some more of my own to upload, too. I am only putting 'Ancient Roman Pottery' in the categories so far, but probably most of them should have additional ones. AgTigress (talk) 14:23, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

No stopping me with mini-galleries now... I ought to turn my attention to the Terra sigillata article, I suppose, where some of the pics could go into the text and would therefore be easier to see. :) AgTigress (talk) 15:29, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Further improvements?

Johnbod, and anyone else reading this, what improvements strike you as desirable at this point? I am keenly aware of the several hundred (at least) types of Roman pottery, especially from the Eastern Empire, that I have blithely ignored because I don't know enough about them, and I could easily expand the sigillata section to about 5 times its present length even from what I do know, but I suspect that this would unbalance the article at the moment. I probably ought to add that to the Terra sigillata article instead.

There are some more pics I must take/get, notably a Gaulish pipeclay figurine to put under 'terracottas', and a Romano-Egyptian one would be nice, too. I can do that. On the 'illustrations' side, I wonder about including something like a typical page of Roman pot-drawings: I have my own slides of Dragendorff's typology, as published in 1895, and could scan one. Would that be safe in terms of copyright? Or is it a bad idea?

Other thoughts that occur to me for the future are a section on technology, which I don't feel quite up to doing at the moment, what with all that stuff about kiln-types and experimental firings, and one on the way archaeologists study pottery and why, a sort of 'significance of Roman pottery' section, though those issues are alluded to throughout the article.

Anyway, pointers on things that need work would be great. I'm not the best person to do this article, really. I'm having to dredge a lot out of my memory from 30 years ago, when I did know a bit about pots.  :) AgTigress (talk) 22:11, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I can't think of any particular lacunae beyond what you mention, but then the article as it was before pretty much reflected all I knew on the subject, most of it found out writing it, so I'm not the best judge! It is now at least three times as long as before, and I think a good length & balance for a main article on the subject. The Dragendorff pic might or might not be ok. He died in 1941, so is still in EU copyright. Not sure how the law works for book illustrations. There are some drawings of his types on Commons already, in here.

Thanks enormously for this, & I hope it's shown you that you can certainly start an article yourself; I'm very willing to be ready with help when needed. Have you seen Fibula (brooch), btw? That seems to be about the extent of our coverage of AR jewellery. Johnbod (talk) 15:06, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The 'fibula' article is very good, giving the long history of the form, both pre- and post-Roman. One would have to give brooches slightly shorter shrift in an article dealing with hairpins, finger-rings, bracelets, necklaces etc. as well.  :) I'll avoid the Dragendorff types in this pottery article, but I think when I get back to terra sigillata in its own article, we must have at least one image showing type drawings. I have some more pictures to upload and add now. Again, thank you for helping me so much. I'm sure I shall continue to need assistance in the future! AgTigress (talk) 15:33, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I didn't think much of the last sections - really it might have been better cut off earlier, though I've just added a bit. I'm working on this on flash Insular brooches, but it's early days. Johnbod (talk) 16:24, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, I tend to skim over the post-Roman things a bit! Don't forget that the pennanular brooch, in a rather small and simple form, was already current in the Roman period. If you have access to (ahem) C.Johns, The Jewellery of Roman Britain, London 1996 , pp. 150-151, there's a summary. I think that it is a development of the separate pin-and-ring fastening technique, which goes back into the mists of antiquity. Well, the Bronze Age, anyway. It's easy enough to fasten a penannular, but I have always been a bit mystified by those completely annular Medieval brooches. :) AgTigress (talk) 16:42, 26 August 2010 (UTC) Oops,just noticed that you do have the Roman background in! Should have read more carefully. It looks like a really nice potential article. I shall never forgive myself for failing to photograph a woman wearing a magnificent pair of silver penannulars, joined with a chain, in Tunisia in 1987. One doesn't want to give offence, and I couldn't very well chase after her... AgTigress (talk) 16:42, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'm looking out for a decent photo, even on a link, and better info, for modern Mahgreb use. I've seen some where they look very impressive. It seems to be Berber mountain villages in recent times - does that seem right? I'm glad to see you endorse "It is fair to say that scholars remain slightly puzzled that the effective and simple penannular brooch developed in this direction"! I'll ask you to give it a look over when I've got further on. Johnbod (talk) 17:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Definitely Berber ladies, yes. The one I saw, admired and failed to photograph was dressed in lovely, colourful clothing, not at all the black bundle that some ladies are in Islamic countries (though the black bundles were mostly less in evidence in 1987 than they are now, and anyway, North Africa has its own traditions). I would say that she was probably dressed in a traditional Berber style. I forget what city it was in, but it may have been Kairouan. But as I didn't get a pic, this speculation is pointless... AgTigress (talk) 22:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Johnbod, here is a possible link for you: http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Africa/Tunisia/North/Zaghouan//photo128538.htm Tunisian Berber women wearing the basic, simple penannulars I saw in 1987. There are other pics on the same site with the more elaborate ones that have decorated triangular plates. Sorry, I know this is off-topic here. Should I have posted on your user 'talk' page? AgTigress (talk) 19:39, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Ooh, thanks! I'll link to that. I've seen modern "designer" triangular ones. There was a wonderful photo c 1907 I saw somewhere. Johnbod (talk) 19:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Disappearing picture

I uploaded a picture of a small Oxfordshire-ware painted beaker to Wikimedia Commons a couple of days ago, and put it into the 'other fine wares' section of the article. Then later I moved it into the mini-gallery of that section. It has now vanished, and while that could simply be someone editing it out for reasons of their own, I can no longer find it on Wikimedia either, nor, even odder, can I find the 'favourites' link to it on my own computer! Any theories? I haven't had any e-mails about it. The only category I had put it into was 'ancient Roman pottery'. AgTigress (talk) 11:46, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I found the file again, because the link for it is still there on the page when one goes into edit:

A late-Roman painted beaker made in Britain.

But it doesn't show up on the page in the article, though it shows here. What's wrong? AgTigress (talk) 11:57, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

This is the full URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_pottery_Oxfordshire_beaker.jpg AgTigress (talk) 12:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I've fixed it. The problem was that the syntax is slightly different for a gallery than a regular picture. For a regular picture in the article, you use square brackets, and give the pixel size. For a gallery, you don't need to do that; when you included the square brackets it confused the gallery so that it didn't show the picture. You should be able to see it now. Mike Christie (talk) 12:37, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you so much. How stupid of me not to spot that! AgTigress (talk) 15:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Class

I see that the article is currently rated 'B' class. I know that there could be more detail about various wares and fabrics, but is there anything else that I could do to improve that standard at the moment? I know it isn't quite like getting a beta for an essay, but I'd still like to do better.  :) AgTigress (talk) 16:05, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Some projects have an "A" class, but neither of the ones here, & it is not much used. After B the next step is WP:Good article, which is like a mini-Featured article, with to my mind most of the hassle but much less prestige. The trouble is it depends on a single assessor, who will probably know little of the subject. It might fly through, or attract endless formatting points. See the ongoing one at Talk:Sutton Hoo, which I nominated as part of the BM effort, in the belief that it was already fairly comfortably of GA standard. It was not written by me, but by the author of the NT guide to the site. You will see the assessor does not yet share my view! One could just put this up & see. It's best to wait a while, as GAs are supposed to be "stable". It might be easier to get FA, like Hoxne hoard, but that will certainly mean lots & lots of spit & polish on WP:Manual of style points. Johnbod (talk) 17:45, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

If you want to take it to GA, I'd be happy to do the review; I'd also be glad to help with an FA run if you want to try that. Mike Christie (talk) 18:21, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Sounds as if it would be wise to wait. I know that there are some lacunae on the purely academic side, because I am no longer a pot person, and never was an eastern-Empire person. I'll have a look at what is happening with the Sutton Hoo one, and keep my head down for now!  :) AgTigress (talk) 19:14, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Good heavens. The WP Manual of Style is more intimidating than some publishers' house-style rules! And the Sutton Hoo article looks excellent to me. I don't really understand the reservations about it at all. AgTigress (talk) 19:46, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Small change in para.2

I have made a little change in the second para. of the lead section to remove the suggestion that 'poorer' people owned only coarse wares for both cooking and serving, while the 'better-off' had fine pottery for use at table, because I think it is questionable. Gaulish samian ware, for example, was present in such vast quantities on provincial Roman sites in the 1st and 2nd centuries that much of it was undoubtedly owned by people who were not particularly well-off. Whilst the very poor might well have eaten off wooden platters, the majority of people would have had pottery that included coarse cooking wares and fine tablewares, and I suspect that the fairly poor just had less of the latter, and used it only on special occasions rather than every day. The truly expensive, luxury Roman tablewares were made of metal — bronze, silver, and for the super-rich, gold — and sometimes of minerals like quartz or fluorspar, not pottery of any kind. AgTigress (talk) 11:50, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

External links

I have just had a look at the link to Ceramics in the Roman World cited at the end of the list, and while I agree that it is 'readable' and attractively set out, perhaps one should express a note of caution (which I have done), since there are several errors in it which could mislead the uninitiated. For example, plain samian forms such as Dr.27 were not mould-made ('press-moulded', as the author has it) in the way that the relief-decorated forms were: they were wheel-thrown and the profiles were finished using templates. I am also very unhappy about the use of the term 'Romano-Celtic' in relation to ceramics. The oft-repeated theory that the curvilinear designs of barbotine decoration arose from a 'Celtic' predilection for curves rather than angles is at best dubious: try doing freehand piped decoration with royal icing, and you'll understand. The technique itself favours curves rather than straight lines and angles. In that both sigillata and coarse wares with painted and barbotine ornamentation were Roman ceramics made by provincial craftsmen, they undoubtedly express a synthesis of native and Classical traditions, but the terms normally used by archaeologists are 'Romano-British' and 'Gallo-Roman', according to province. The little aside about silver tableware contains several errors, too, notably the assumption (picked up later on) that all relief decoration on Roman silver was done by the repoussé technique: he even thinks the Mildenhall Great Dish is repoussé. In fact, that kind of work is a type of chasing, worked from the front of the silver. The author has used the BM displays a lot, but hasn't read all the labels very carefully. He has a muddle about faience, which is understandable, since the terminology is a nightmare. 'Egyptian faience' is an accepted and traditional archaeological/Egyptological term for glazed composition / frit, which is nothing to do with the post-medieval ceramic meanings of the word. He also has some trouble distinguishing between findspot and place of manufacture: for example, the black Lezoux-ware handled cup from Bath is described as 'British', but it was made in Gaul, and is very clearly labelled as such in the showcase.

Anyway, I have entered a caveat, but I do wonder whether it would be better to remove the link altogether. AgTigress (talk) 10:21, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, whatever you think best. The article is much fuller now than when it was added. Johnbod (talk) 12:47, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Archaeological point of view

This article is obviously strong on technical detail, but I don't feel that I come away with an understanding of Ancient Roman pottery in its cultural context. It's written as if it deals with a culture we know only from archaeology. That is, it seems strangely detached from cultural concerns, as if we're studying the artifacts of an otherwise unknown people. Perhaps this is why the intro seems long, yet not really focussed. I admire all the work that went into the article, and it tells me a lot about pottery qua pottery. But it reads like a softcore article for an archaeology journal, when usually a general treatment of the subject of Roman pottery will also incorporate some observations from the literature of the people who produced it: I'm thinking of Pliny, or the poets who give clues about certain types as status items. Or for instance Vitruvius in the section on "Brick, tile and other architectural ceramics", which also doesn't make any connections to specific buildings known to have employed any of these features. Just a suggestion for broadening the usefulness and appeal for readers. Cynwolfe (talk) 02:22, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

I have removed your tags - I didn't even know we had a "lead too long" one, but the lead here is entirely in accordance with WP:LEAD. You may feel there are too many images, but it is a visual subject. As the article says, nearly everyone except the very wealthy and possibly the very poor used pottery all the time, and AFAIK there were no really high status types, though there are clearly some very fine individual pieces. Equally almost all buildings used ceramics in some form, so I'm not sure what help quoting individual examples is. The main author of the MK2 version doesn't seem active recently. If you feel you want to add, go ahead. Johnbod (talk) 04:43, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

I read on a laptop, so I have a probably averaged-sized viewing screen: I'm getting some bad text layout where there's overcrowding from images, so I can only guess what someone reading on a smaller or handheld device would see. The pdf version is fine. I usually tackle this kind of problem myself, because usually it's evident that the logjam occurred because editors just threw in images willy-nilly. Here, the article is well-developed and I'm assuming the images were chosen thoughtfully to represent the content. It seemed best to make active editors aware of the potential problem.

As for the lede, the first graf contains details that don't really orient the reader to the overall topic and don't contribute to placing "the subject … in a context with which many readers could be expected to be familiar" (WP:MOSBEGIN), hence also my comments about the article seeming strangely divorced from ancient Roman culture. What you say here about how pottery was used in everyday life and how it could function as a status marker (buried deeper in the article), seems much more like a first paragraph than the specifics on a waste mound of amphorae that had transported Spanish olive oil. The intro does strike me as bogged down a bit in detail and assuming a reader who's familiar with an archaeological approach. But the reader who comes here is unlikely to be an advanced student specializing in the history of ceramics (who will use the actual scholarship on the topic), and more likely to be a 17-year-old researching a school project. This comment applies only to orienting the reader in the introductory section, and not to the body. My other suggestion is simply that an article on any aspect of ancient Rome that doesn't name a single Roman, including those such as Vitruvius and Pliny who have things to say on the subject, is bound to seem detached from its cultural context. Hence my feeling that it reads as if ancient Rome is one of those cultures we know only from archaeology. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:02, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

I wrote the much shorter Mk1 version with very little previous knowledge indeed; the Mk2 was written by a professional. I did a fair amount of reading for my version & don't recall literary references coming up much. The fact is for every stray & ambiguous literary mention there is - sometimes literally, as at Monte Testaccio - a mountain of archaeological evidence, and that is naturally what the subject tends to concentrate on. The "cultural context" was so universal I'm not really sure what more can be done without listing endless types of kitchenware, tableware & other uses. But you're welcome to have a go yourself. Johnbod (talk) 14:54, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I know, everyone can edit, I appreciate your receptivity. But as I said, this is obviously compiled by knowledgable editors whose work I didn't want to tamper with thoughtlessly, and instead made a suggestion based on the impression of someone coming to it cold. I think my remarks on the first graf are not amiss. And the issue with the images is again not something I want to address without intimate knowledge of why the selections were made and how their placement relates to the text. I'm not shy about barging in, but I know the difference between an article that is sound and thoroughly researched, as this one is, and one that can be incrementally improved by even a hasty going-over by a more informed editor, which is not the case here. So if our pottery editors are unconcerned about the graphics question, or whether the first graf actually represents a "context with which many readers could be expected to be familiar," then who am I to insist? Cynwolfe (talk) 15:47, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

I'll have a look, but I'm also reluctant to tamper with the work of someone with infinitely more expertise than myself. I know several of the photos were taken specially for the article by AgTigress. Johnbod (talk) 15:56, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

This might be as simple as sizing or l/r placement, without deleting any. Since there's such variety in how a page might be displayed on a screen, I sometimes hesitate with graphics fixes for fear of making it worse, and there may be "align" or "anchor" functions unknown to me. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:59, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Hello, Johnbod and Cynwolfe. I have, as Johnbod says, been out of touch for some time. Real life has not been very kind to me recently. Cynwolfe, I hear what you say about the lack of literary/documentary sources or references, but I honestly don't believe they add significantly to the understanding of the subject as material culture. But please feel free to add and tinker. I would be the last person to claim that this is a perfect article: I simply tried to convey the scope of the subject, and illustrated examples of the important classes and types. I do think we need all the pictures. It is a waste of time discussing pottery without adequate visual references.  :-) AgTigress (talk) 10:57, 1 August 2011 (UTC)