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Younger Dryas category

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Is it really correct to list Category:Younger Dryas on this page? The Younger Dryas is a pause in the AHP, not a continuation. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 18:46, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was not searching for continuations, but for articles which either place the Younger Dryas in its palaeontological and archaeological context, or provide explanations for its causes. Dimadick (talk) 18:50, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

On the length tag

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I'd like to dispute the length tag on the grounds that this topic is extremely broad and covers a number of aspects across several different countries, fields of science and ages. That and as discussed in the archive, it does not neatly split into various topics. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:53, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article is currently written in a way that is broader than the topic, and the topic can certainly be covered in a more concise way - for example avoiding examplefarms. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:14, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, deliberately so, to give a bit of context of what came before and what else occurred at the same time. The examples of e.g lakes were picked with a reason, too - the lakes in question have had dedicated studies to them. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 05:17, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But we don't need to report every lake that's been studied - we're meant to be providing a broad overview of the subject. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:18, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am inclined to think that listing lakes that were studied is an appropriate level of detail. Details on each lake on the other hand would be excessive. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 05:59, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Grnrchst since you readded the tag (or since it was off for two years, added it) Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:03, 8 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Have you considered whether more could be done to create and move material into sub-articles? DeCausa (talk) 06:52, 8 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Considered, but:
  • Creating subarticles is not trivial.
  • Nor is replacing the content that was spun off.
  • The yearly update becomes much more of a hassle if, on top of everything else, one has to spread it across multiple subarticles and decide where it goes.
Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:13, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Russian source

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This source discusses the speciation of the Guinea tilapia, but it's too long to readily translate. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 20:14, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thoughts on "How language can be a path away from neo-colonialism in geoscience"?

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I've introduced this source in the article but I am not excited by it. Putting aside for a moment that the term "African humid period" was a) coined in 2000 by deMenocal and not by Nicholson and Flohn 1980 which don't use the term and b) there are so many manifestations outside of North Africa that such a rename motion has gained little traction so far, I am not sure if this study carries the weight to argue that the term is neo-colonial. Certainly not without a "allegedly" before it which strikes me as questionable too. I am just not sure whether to default to inclusion or exclusion. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 20:11, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I see that @Herostratus: has removed this part. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I can't read the article beyond the first few sentences, but it looks like a polemic and a pretty incendiary one at that. Apparently "African humid period" is racist or something. If it's misleading or too broad or whatever, that'd be one thing, but racist is just over the top. I don't know what the authors recommend instead, and if they have a concrete suggestion I suppose we could put it in the Terminology and use the article to ref that (altho these people might not be notable enough, so maybe not). But the political screed stuff, seems too fringe to me. Herostratus (talk) 04:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Herostratus: It seems like there are non-paywalled copies here. The pertinent part to AHP is Another example, which is rooted in colonial-era treatment of colonized areas as uninhabited and homogenous 2 , is the ‘African Humid Period’. This Holocene climate perturbation has been recognized across mainly northern Africa for over 100 years but this phrasing first appears in the 1980s 6. The term is problematic, as instead of referring to a section of the continent, indeed initially just the Sahara 6, the whole of Africa is invoked. Lumping together 54 countries, eight climatic regions and 30 million km 2 into a single, simple, unknowable entity harks back to colonial thinking. Instead, we could simply refer to this period as the ‘northern African Humid Phase’. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:47, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, thank you. Well, they do have a suggestion "northern African Humid Phase", which is entirely reasonable. We could use that article as a source for the statement "some scientists have instead used and recommended... "Northern African humid period". After all, they are correct in saying "The term is problematic, as instead of referring to a section of the continent, indeed initially just the Sahara 6, the whole of Africa is invoked. Lumping together 54 countries, eight climatic regions and 30 million km 2...", altho I don't think it is super confusing cos reading a couple-few sentences in to any material on the subject makes it pretty clear what is being talked about.
But, ascribing this to an imperialist mindset is just such arrant nonsense that I'm not sure that these people are serious enough to have any standing to comment on anything not directly in their exact areas of technical scientific expertise, defined narrowly. Yes I know the West has acted badly in a lot of places, but this here is a science article.
Anyway, they didn't recommend "Northern African humid period", the recommended "northern African humid period", and for all I know capitalizing "Northern African" as a proper noun rather than using "northern Africa" as a mere descriptive phrase indicates a desire to divide the continent into formally separate sections which is racist or something. Who knows? It's tiring to try to keep up with this stuff and so I'd just as soon not include these people at all. Herostratus (talk) 21:41, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For the interested

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This sauce speculates that the Los Chocoyos eruption of Lake Atitlán might have induced a significant greening of the Sahara 84,000 years ago. Via Mediterranean rainfall and not the monsoon, however. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:07, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Green or "green"

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@Mukogodo: I still must contest this formatting change. Most of the world does not put the green in scare quotes, even if it probably should, and the distinction between savanna and green strikes me as overly literal. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:28, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

6,000–5,000 years ago during the Piora Oscillation cold period.

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A "PIORA" cold period is very much debated, and above all, never ocurred in that time, perhaps Piora I started at 3400 BC, if at all.HJJHolm (talk) 09:42, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

3,400 BC is 5,400 years ago so within Menocal's timespan, though? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

National Geographic September 1924

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Does someone have a working version of the article that says on which page the savannah animals are mentioned. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:55, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Intro

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The Introduction is by far to detailed. On the other hand, we need a chapters about datings of the beginning and the end.HJJHolm (talk) 06:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that the intro is too detailed at all, sorry. It seems to be a proper level of detail. There is already a chapter about the dating of the ending (6.1 Chronology) and the dates of the beginning aren't particularly controversial and don't need a chapter. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:37, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Length/citation number

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So, currently the article has 965 citations and with my annual update the number will likely grow. @KyleSirTalksAlot: has flagged the article for excessive citations so at some point a split will have to be done, but someone has to write the split articles. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:54, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Begun shortening by removing duplicate citations. Got down to "additional factors". Thinking to do this section by section:
Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Also worth checking ><, }}<, >{{s and }} aside from }}{{ which I have been doing. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Did the first three; the fourth is probably too much work. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:55, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Nomadic" additions to the lead

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There have been several additions of the term "nomadic" to the lead, first with no source, then with this one. There are a few problems:

  • This concept needs to be discussed in the article before it can be added to lead, per WP:UNDUE and WP:LEADCITE
  • Most importantly: As formulated by the edits, the addition implies that the inhabitants of the Green Sahara were mainly nomadic. That's a questionable claim that would need extensive discussion in the article text, not just one source.

Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:17, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apropos of nothing...

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User:Turathizetu/sandbox, User:Kōkogaku-sha/Takarkori, User:小文儿/Lothagam Lokam and User:Turathizetu/Jarigole Pillar Site. Some interested user may want to launch them one day. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:50, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"The AHP is the most profound climate change of the low latitudes during the last 100,000 years"

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As questioned by Darkskysunflowers. The source text is The AHP represents the most comprehensive and areally extensive change in low-latitude climate of the last 100,000 years, and it provides an instructive example of the response of continental climate and ecosystems to external forcings, I figure the question is about how it compares to the ice ages? Given that sea levels are more geography than climate and that the southward shift of the Sahara boundary during LGM/HE1 seems to be somewhat less than its northward retreat during the AHP, it might still be valid. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:53, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The wording of "The AHP is the most profound climate change of the low latitudes during the last 100,000 years" feels too broad/vague/subjective. The source text saying that the AHP is the most "areally extensive" change makes sense and is a narrower-stroke assertion. Given what is known as well as what is still unknown about details of the climate across the globe of the past 100,000 years, I tend to prefer erring in the direction of narrower assertions.
Very nice work on the article, by the way - it's clear you've put more than a little effort into it. Darkskysunflowers (talk) 17:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

2024 floods

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Regarding this addition by Des Vallee, I am not sure that a flood "in decades" is meaningful enough to be compared to the AHP. If it becomes a pattern, yes, but as it stands it feels like too routine to be compared to the AHP - remember, we are talking about millennial-scale events not decadal floods. Also, there is a minor WP:CITEVAR issue (the reference tags are in the text instead of the list like the rest of the content). Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:25, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: It's not the African Humid Period it's just the current climate of the Sahara which is was incredibly rare and attributed to climate change. Just like there is information in the article on the current greening of parts of the Sahara in early 21st century. Des Vallee (talk) 13:32, 20 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but the issue is that it's still an once in decade thing not once in a millennium. The other section discusses decade-long developments as part of a discussion on the recent state of the Sahara, this addition only one year which is thinner, I'd also avoid using news media as sources on scientific topics, as they tend to be less rigorous. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:12, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The full monsoon occurred similar to past events and is the most documented, likewise there is consensus that the event was caused by current climate change. Des Vallee (talk) 15:08, 24 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Does it make it representative of the AHP and/or future Saharan climate, though? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:00, 25 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Des Vallee:I am also uncertain about the source interpretation. This source says that in northern Morocco floods will become less bad and in southern worse, which is kinda sorta in line with the topic but only with a hefty amount of SYNTH. This one discusses flood hazards in general, especially along the (non-monsoonal) coastline - no recognizable connection to the AHP at all. Only this source actually talks about monsoonal floods. I'll leave this one.

That said, this source illustrates a major issue with using newspapers about events as sources: It only discusses the 2024 event even though the content implies that there were similar events 30-50 years ago and presumably 60-100, 90-150 and so on. Either they remain uncovered (possibly creating an WP:UNDUE issue as only the most recent flood is covered but not the previous) or we cover them all and then the whole thing becomes too long. So I'd wonder if there is a source saying that such floods occur all 30-50 years and that this timespan is expected to shorten. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:12, 29 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Removing reference to unsourced, uncited herodotus and strabo quotes which do not actually exist"

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Discussing here whether According to an article in Oxford Research Encyclopedias, the ancient geographers Herodotus and Strabo both discussed the existence of a greener Sahara, although their reports were questioned owing to their anecdotal nature. should stay or not. Thenewthemesucks says no; other people that commented at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities#References to a past wetter/greener Sahara in Herodotus and Strabo are @Lambiam, Card Zero, and DOR (HK): Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:35, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how wikipedia works so I'm sorry if I'm doing this wrong.
Even with a reinserted reference to the oxford research encyclopedia there is no citation to find what they're talking about, doing independent research to try to find it myself, I could not find anything other than a reddit thread with people making reference to the existence of these supposed quotes, and then when asked to produce them the quotes they provide do not appear to be talking about a past green sahara at all
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1ldppvz/comment/mybykzb/
if there is an actual source referencing this in the oxford research encyclopedia, can someone link it with an inline citation, because it seems like this is just hearsay being reproduced across the internet Thenewthemesucks (talk) 02:12, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Thenewthemesucks: Back then, many scientists questioned the existence of a humid and vegetated Sahara because earlier reports (e.g., Herodotus, Historia (Melpomene, 168–199), 440 bce; Strabon, Geographica (book 1, chapter 3), 23 ce; see also Hornemann, 1802/1997) were of a more anecdotal nature. is the text in the source. Google Books has a few things e.g here in the Hornemann source. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:51, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I checked Strabo and Hornemann, both of which talk about the land being flooded by the sea. Which turned out to be correct, but has nothing to do with the humid period. Nothing about a greener Sahara is mentioned per se, as far as I can tell.
Strabo Book 1 Chaper 3: Ammon with good reason became so distinguished and so well-known as it is if it was situated on the sea, and that its present position so very far from the sea gives no reasonable explanation of its present distinction and fame; and that in ancient times Egypt was covered by the sea as far as the bogs about Pelusium, Mt. Casius, and Lake Sirbonis; at all events, even to‑day, when the salt-lands in Egypt are dug up, the excavations are found to contain sand and fossil-shells, as though the country had been submerged beneath the sea and the whole region round Mt. Casius and the so‑called Gerrha had once been covered with shoal water so that it connected with the Gulf of the Red Sea; and when the sea retired, these regions were left bare, except that the Lake Sirbonis remained; then the lake also broke through to the sea, and thus became a bog. In the same way, Strato adds, the beaches of the so‑called Lake Moeris⁠ more nearly resemble sea-beaches than river-banks. Hypnôs (talk) 09:38, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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