Jump to content

Talk:Gaza war

Page contents not supported in other languages.
Extended-protected page
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Talk:2023 Israel-Hamas war)

Indirect deaths

70.000 multiplied by 15 is just over a million. According to the infobox, this is the maximum range of the "likely" number of indirect deaths. That's half the population of Gaza. Is this hyperbole, or do any editors actually believe that there is a chance half of Gaza's pre-war population is dead? Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 13:28, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It’s certainly inaccurate. The quote provided is from an article written in 2008 says that it there are between "three and fifteen times" more indirect deaths than direct deaths in "recent conflicts", based on the wars in Iraq, Sudan and Sierra Leone, which are completely unrelated (and also different) from the Gaza War, and because something is true for one war does not make it true for another. One of the other sources in the citation, from the Journal of Genocide Research, states that the (total) "death toll is at least 118,908 … as of September 30, 2024". This is the number we should be using, as it's an actual estimate made by academics, and not some arbitrary "this many times" figure based on other unrelated conflicts written 15 years before the Gaza War even started. Tomissonneil (talk) 18:51, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Links:https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2025.2483546
https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/Crime-statistics/Global-Burden-of-Armed-Violence-full-report.pdf Tomissonneil (talk) 18:57, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It’s certainly inaccurate what exactly is inaccurate and what quote are you referring to? M.Bitton (talk) 20:38, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That as many as fifteen times more people have died indirectly in Gaza than directly, the higher end of the scale stated in the 2008 document. Tomissonneil (talk) 20:53, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The three to fifteen times figure does originate from earlier conflicts, but it was used by the Lancet writers (cite 27) specifically in the context of this conflict to derive a 'conservative estimate' at a 4:1 ratio of 'up to 186,000 or even more' eventual indirect deaths resulting from the conflict presuming an immediate cessation to hostilities at the time of writing in June 2024.1 It is a widely misunderstood figure as it does not mean that there are 186,000 indirectly dead already, nor in the most extreme case would it mean that 'half of Gaza's pre-war population is dead' as Mikrobølgeovn incorrectly infers above. The figure includes people who die months and years after the end of the conflict from causes attributable to it (e.g. a post-war famine or epidemic). Several discussions were held about this previously, and consensus was ultimately to include the spectrum of 3–15:1 rather than any set figure such as 4:1. Mr rnddude (talk) 20:56, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, but it's not "likely" that up to fifteen times as many people have died indirectly than the 70,000+ direct deaths so far, which is what is currently said in the infobox. Regarding the Lancet study, including deaths that have not happened yet may not be accurate, as future deaths can be very difficult to determine, and may give the reader a false impression of the current figures, depending on how it's worded. But even so, my point still stands. The 3 to 15 times as many indirect deaths is from an article written in 2008 about different wars, and even the Lancet Study does not state that up to 15 as many people have died in Gaza. How can there have been consensus to put that figure instead of "up to four times as many" estimated in the Lancet Study, (which is actually about the current Gaza war, unlike the 2008 study) is beyond me. Tomissonneil (talk) 02:13, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I've managed to find the specific discussion I was thinking of in the talk page archives. I've misremembered the outcome, even though I proposed the options. The consensus at that time was to say 'multiple times higher' without specifying either a range or figure. I am unsure if a later discussion modified that outcome or if somebody re-introduced three to fifteen as a bold edit that simply went uncontested thereafter. It took quite a while to find the discussion as there are damn near fifty archive pages now. If the wording wasn't changed as a result of a later discussion, then the consensus wording is 'multiple times higher'. Mr rnddude (talk) 03:47, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
According to that discussion it seems like beforehand it was "magnitudes higher", which implied that more people died than the sum of the entire population. We're so accurate, I love it.
I'm not bold enough to remove or modify it atm as I had my fair share of contentions topic conversations, but it makes no sense for it to stay. Bar Harel (talk) 15:30, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a review article in International Journal of Health Policy and Management, which is in top quartile in various fields:

Indirect deaths from starvation, lack of medical care, and infections remain uncountable.76 According to a Lancet paper based on similar recent conflicts, up to 190 000 or even more deaths could be attributed to the ongoing genocide in Gaza. It is estimated that half a million people will be lost by the end of the year.76

[290]
We can say "Indirect" deaths likely multiple times higher and cite this source. I'll make the change. Bogazicili (talk) 18:47, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I adjusted the wording slightly differently, with a different source. Bogazicili (talk) 20:53, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Mikrobølgeovn Where does the 72,368+ number even come from because a lot of sources on the internet say 50,000 something. Also the 72,368 number is not written even once elsewhere in the article, only in the infobox, and the sources for it are convoluted. Alexysun (talk) 18:58, 14 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Someone has fixed it now and the number is now explained by splitting into the 58k recorded killed and 17k missing. Alexysun (talk) 17:55, 25 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

„Led to the fall of the Assad regime“

Are we sure that our sourcing is strong enough to make this claim in our own voice? (Last para of the lead) FortunateSons (talk) 20:27, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so. Alaexis¿question? 20:54, 8 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Seconded. While I'd argue it was a definite contributing factor, saying it was a direct cause (as "led to" implies), seems far too strong, and we would need some strong sources to state that in WikiVoice. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 14:38, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Is this fix fine? FortunateSons (talk) 14:45, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, contributing factor, but a few steps indirectly. Gaza War → Hezbollah war → Israeli attacks on Iran → Syrian uprising. Arguably, even the Ukraine war was a distantly contributing factor, but thats another story for another day. Metallurgist (talk) 03:41, 25 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Gaza war" is a mischaracterization of the war

The article and its title mischaracterize the war by leaving out of its main discussion the direct involvement of the Houthis in Yemen, Hezbollah, and Iran, all of whom have attacked Israel directly and been attacked by Israel in the context of the war.

The sidelining of Hezbollah is exceedingly strange given that:

  • They attacked on October 8 right at the beginning of the war. Hence, it's misleading to describe that front as a "spillover".
  • There were at the time credible Israeli fears of a simultaneous Hezbollah invasion.
  • The Israeli defense minister wanted to launch an attack on Hezbollah at the onset of the war.
  • There were Israeli attacks in Lebanon against Hezbollah at the very beginning of the war.
  • The effect of the Hezbollah front in the war has been ~96,000 displaced persons in Israel and ~1.4 million displaced in Lebanon.

The Israeli self-understanding of the war is that it's a war against Iran and its proxies on seven fronts[1][2]

The problem with calling it the "Gaza war" is that many might draw the conclusion that Wikipedia authors and editors can only understand the war from the perspective of a resident of Gaza. Many residents of the West Bank, Lebanon, Israel, Syria, Iran, and Yemen have weathered attacks in the war as well. Avisnacks (talk) 04:38, 15 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think this has been touched on previously, though it's hard to find the relevant discussions: [291][292] If you would like to gain consensus to move, you will have to weigh the previous discussions and address what was decided there. All these fronts do come under, more properly, the Middle Eastern crisis (2003-present), and each has its own article. The Gaza war focuses chiefly on the fighting in Gaza and Israel (initially). GeoffreyA (talk) 08:35, 15 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This is about the Gaza war, not about the other conflicts that broke out related to it. It started with an attack from Gaza and most of the action has been in Gaza, hence Gaza war. Also WP:COMMONNAME. Metallurgist (talk) 18:51, 15 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ O'Connor, Tom. "Israel's War with Iran on Seven Fronts". Newsweek. Retrieved 15 July 2025.
  2. ^ FRANTZMAN, SETH J, (1 January 2025). "How Israel managed a seven-front war in 2024 | The Jerusalem Post". The Jerusalem Post. The Jerusalem Post. Retrieved 15 July 2025.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

The areas of eastern Rafah under control of the Popular Forces currently aren't displayed as such in the infobox- the Popular Forces are backed by Israel but currently the map depicts those areas as being under full Israeli control which is misleading. Additionally, the red areas being described as under "Palestinian control" is misleading- those areas are under Hamas control and Hamas is a Palestinian militant group, but eastern Rafah is also under the control of a Palestinian militant group- just a different one which is allied with Israel- and none of the Gaza Strip is actually under the control of the internationally-recognized government of the State of Palestine.

As a result, I would propose changing the description of the red areas in the map from "under Palestinian control" to "under Hamas control", and using another colour e.g. green for areas under the control of the Popular Forces (and any other Palestinian militias which are allied with Israel). Thoughts?

Pinging @Ecrusized: as the main updater of the map. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 16:59, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The naming of "Palestinian control" as opposed to "Hamas control" was discussed earlier when the map was first created, and most editors agreed back then to use the term Palestinian control because there are/were about a dozen or so groups that govern Gaza besides Hamas in the Palestinian Joint Operations Room, most notably Palestinian Islamic Jihad. With regards to the pro-Israel Popular Forces, I could add a new entry to the map regarding it, but considering the territory under their control is minor for the time being, I think they should be colored with the rest of the Palestinian groups as it is right now. Adding a new entry to the legend would also break the translations, which many other editors have done in the past. Ecrusized (talk) 20:55, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would be quite misleading to have pro-Israel Palestinian militias having the same colour as pro-Hamas Palestinian militias. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 00:07, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Quote from B'Tselem report

This was removed by FriendlyRiverOtter, saying Please give me CNN, CBS, ABC, NBC, or int’l equivalents [293]

B'Tselem's report received wide coverage, including by CNN[294], NYT [295], BBC [296].

Why did you remove the quote from the original report? Bogazicili (talk) 19:46, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I added back most of it. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 19:48, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Why did you omit the last part? Bogazicili (talk) 19:52, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Because it reached for inflammatory conclusions like “systematically.”
And really, no one reads Talk, at least not in numbers which really count. Let’s please have the debate, whether constructive or not, in the edit summaries themselves. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 19:58, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
So you removed a quote from a source within the reference tags because you thought it "reached for inflammatory conclusions"?
Can you tell me where this is in WP:PAGs? I can understand editors may contest the wording of the text, but the quote from a source? That doesn't make sense to me. Bogazicili (talk) 20:02, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Talk pages are for discussions, it is strongly discouraged to try and work through an edit disagreement over edit summaries-that leads to edit warring. Talk on talk pages or do not engage in contentious topics. Mason7512 (talk) 20:07, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There is a need for brevity, even in quotes, even in footnotes, on a hopelessly massive page. But anything more than a minimal or initiated discussion should be on the talk page. Edit summaries are to explain and justify your action, not to debate. Metallurgist (talk) 20:59, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
85 word quote from a report with like 90 pages should be fine. It's also not part of the prose.
I am still waiting an explanation for this change [297] in line with WP:PAGs. Bogazicili (talk) 05:47, 31 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The "brevity" argument especially does not make sense, since FriendlyRiverOtter added lengthy quotes and content in text, increasing the prose word count [298].
Given no valid rationale in line with Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines for removing a quote from the source within the ref tags, I'm restoring the quote. Bogazicili (talk) 15:32, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]


Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha> tags or {{efn}} templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}} template or {{notelist}} template (see the help page).