Talk:The purpose of a system is what it does

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This article was nominated for deletion on 31 July 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

Justification

POSIWID is a term very widely used by system theorists, many of whom recount stories of its use by Stafford Beer. It needs a Wikipedia article. I have found a recent academic book to reference which in turn references Stafford Beer directly. The tone of the article relates directly to the way that the term is typically used, not to my own views — Preceding unsigned comment added by AidanWard (talk • contribs) 15:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Political Usage

Hi folks, just putting a note here that I think this article should be expanded in regard to the political usage of POSIWID.

I've seen it used in this sort of example: A state claims to be committing violence for the purpose of getting rid of terrorists, but ends up killing mostly civilians. POSIWID can be applied to highlight that no matter what the state claims the intention behind the violence is, because it is Doing violence against civilians that is what it's Purpose is.

I'm not sure if I explained it here perfectly, but as this is a common usage of POSIWID I think it's worth expanding on. Just putting a note here both as a reminder to myself to research and expand on this, and for anyone else who sees this and would like to expand it. Oxb wL4k3 (talk) 10:00, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of a system is what it does, not what it claims to do

I have made this edit which was reverted. I agree, that was right to do with the phrase of 'extended version' but I would insist on it with better phrasing as it's exact title of previous bibliographical reference and logical compound of the maxim itself and explanation from the author: The purpose of a system is what it does, there is no point in claiming that the purpose of a system is to do what it constantly fails to do. In other words The purpose of a system is what it does, not what it claims to do.

Maybe you can come up with better phrasing but it is exactly what was said by the author.

Osetnik (talk) 11:20, 2 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Which author do you mean?

The Purpose Of A System Is What It Does, Not What It Claims To Do is the exact headline of a Forbes article, but Beer is quoted as using the more succinct the purpose of a system is what it does. Belbury (talk) 11:47, 2 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

> is the exact headline of a Forbes article

Yes, but it's the same as 'The purpose of a system is what it does, there is no point in claiming that the purpose of a system is to do what it constantly fails to do'.

Words are slightly different but meaning is the same; and not scattered across article. Osetnik (talk) 09:39, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's there in the lead sentence:

The purpose of a system is what it does (POSIWID) is a systems thinking heuristic coined by Stafford Beer, who observed that there is "no point in claiming that the purpose of a system is to do what it constantly fails to do."

This seems very clear, that Beer is contrasting the outcome to the claim.

You're suggesting that this sentence should also somehow include the bold phrase the purpose of a system is what it does, not what it claims to do, but what would that add? Belbury (talk) 09:46, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

> but what would that add

Difference like between 'cui prodest' and 'cui prodest scelus, is fecit'.

And it doesn't have to be bold, can be phrased as 'combining a maxim with explanation it can be summarised as "the purpose of a system is what it does, not what it claims to do"'. Osetnik (talk) 13:26, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]